More evidence of Chicago media turning on Ventura

[caulfield12]

Remember when RV was such a breath of fresh air in his first season? How all the extra infield practice made a fundamentally sound team?

 

What happened? Did he get worse on purpose?

 

Or was he really the cause of the improvement in the first place? If not, how can we be so sure he's the problem now?

 

 

He isn't. We are dramatically overachieving.

 

Too bad there's no sabre stat for good/sound managerial decision making.

Edited July 1, 2015 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

Which is more likely, Terry Francona will be in the HoF for managing, or Robin Ventura?

 

Wait, I know. If Robin had the same teams as LaRussa, Torre and Cox, he would surely be without peer in managerial renown compared to that formidable triumvirate.

 

If you go by pythagorean (hello Phil Rogers), he is the best manager in the AL and Bob Melvin is far and away the worst (+5 vs -10). Gibbons in TOR would be second worst (-7). Mattingly is the worst at -4 in the NL, and Magician Joe Maddon is only at +1 with all those lucky or fluke wins. Buck Showalter, -3, not such a genius. Lloyd McClendon, +3, another candidate for an extension.

 

Give everyone contract extensions with all that overachieving!!!

 

If Ventura gets away to another team much closer to home, surely he will take the Angels to the World Series and beyond.

 

ummmmm wat

 

[SCCWS]

Remember when RV was such a breath of fresh air in his first season? How all the extra infield practice made a fundamentally sound team?

 

What happened? Did he get worse on purpose?

 

Or was he really the cause of the improvement in the first place? If not, how can we be so sure he's the problem now?

 

FWIW--I heard an interesting comment two years ago during a Boston/White Sox game in Boston. The White Sox were having a bad game defensively. Jerry Remy, the Boston color man, said the White Sox do very limited infield work for a road team before a game. He thought they needed to change that watching them fumble around that day.

 

[caulfield12]

ummmmm wat

 

 

Since it's getting so tiresome arguing that Ventura should be replaced and logic doesn't work, might as well use reverse logic to see if that makes any difference.

 

 

[caulfield12]

FWIW--I heard an interesting comment two years ago during a Boston/White Sox game in Boston. The White Sox were having a bad game defensively. Jerry Remy, the Boston color man, said the White Sox do very limited infield work for a road team before a game. He thought they needed to change that watching them fumble around that day.

 

And yet his recurring argument when there's another lapse in the defense is they've already practiced it 100 times and he's tired of talking about it/beating a dead horse.

 

Yet somehow one doesn't ever get the idea they're overpracticing....one of many allegations made against Sandberg, too much drilling, too long on the field for practicing, too many reps, too much in the way of fundamentals/situational execution on offense and defense.

Edited July 1, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Since it's getting so tiresome arguing that Ventura should be replaced and logic doesn't work, might as well use reverse logic to see if that makes any difference.

Tiresome? There isn't one poster on Soxtalk that enjoys the White Sox failing more than you. You have been posting the same thing for a couple of months with no sign of slowing down. In fact, because I have DirecTV, when it rains, I often lose the broadcast. If I want to see how the Sox are doing while the TV doesn't work, I go to Soxtalk, click on the gamethread, and see how many posts you have. A lot of posts, the Sox are getting killed. A few posts, the game is close, no posts, the Sox have the game in the bag.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

Tiresome? There isn't one poster on Soxtalk that enjoys the White Sox failing more than you. You have been posting the same thing for a couple of months with no sign of slowing down. In fact, because I have DirecTV, when it rains, I often lose the broadcast. If I want to see how the Sox are doing while the TV doesn't work, I go to Soxtalk, click on the gamethread, and see how many posts you have. A lot of posts, the Sox are getting killed. A few posts, the game is close, no posts, the Sox have the game in the bag.

 

 

I don't recall writing that I was rooting for losses to better draft position...at any rate, like many here, we just want a clear direction.

 

Lose a lot, make changes on the roster, coaching staff or front office...improve for the future.

 

Win enough to provide evidence of improvement.

 

This whole 5-15 games below .500 thing gets you nowhere but exiled to irrelevance in Chicago.

 

 

But I could say the same thing...if the Sox aren't winning or you can't hype/defend/protect Ventura, Beckham or Danks somehow, you're pretty much invisible.

 

Today I spent three hours following on a mobile phone until the battery died because that's how long it took for a new residency permit in China. I even got scolded for having a phone out while waiting in line. You can blame bureaucratic inefficiency for my inability to hype up Tyler Flowers for a three year contract extension since i didn't have an ipad with me.

 

Thanks for an attempt at a personal attack, though. Heartwarming that you care so much about everyone's fandom.

Edited July 1, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

I don't recall writing that I was rooting for losses to better draft position...at any rate, like many here, we just want a clear direction.

 

Lose a lot, make changes on the roster, coaching staff or front office...improve for the future.

 

Win enough to provide evidence of improvement.

 

This whole 5-15 games below .500 thing gets you nowhere but exiled to irrelevance in Chicago.

 

 

But I could say the same thing...if the Sox aren't winning or you can't hype/defend/protect Ventura, Beckham or Danks somehow, you're pretty much invisible.

 

Today I spent three hours following on a mobile phone until the battery died because that's how long it took for a new residency permit in China. I even got scolded for having a phone out while waiting in line. You can blame bureaucratic inefficiency for my inability to hype up Tyler Flowers for a three year contract extension since i didn't have an ipad with me.

 

Thanks for an attempt at a personal attack, though. Heartwarming that you care so much about everyone's fandom.

No, just referring to the part you said calling for Ventura's head is getting "tiring". The fact is, and anyone can go to previous gamethreads and check it out, either it is just a crazy coincidence you are too busy on days the White Sox play well, or your claim of complaining about the White Sox getting tiresome is BS. I don't go into gamethreads much anymore because they are a joke. If the Sox aren't winning 10-0, they pretty much pure comedy bad or unreadable.

[caulfield12]

And they're made lots more enjoyable when Robin Ventura is defended no matter what he does...and constantly compared to Joe Torre, Bobby Cox and Tony LaRussa?

 

How about this?

 

I won't post at all here starting this weekend. Since we can't ever seem to get along and play nice and it's making the site harder and harder to read...let's say, two full weeks, until July 18th?

 

Deal?

Edited July 1, 2015 by caulfield12

[GreenSox]

I won't post at all here starting this weekend. Since we can't ever seem to get along and play nice and it's making the site harder and harder to read...let's say, two full weeks, until July 18th?

 

Deal?

No need to leave.

Post what you want. you add a lot to discussion.

Just ignore

[Dick Allen]

And they're made lots more enjoyable when Robin Ventura is defended no matter what he does...and constantly compared to Joe Torre, Bobby Cox and Tony LaRussa?

 

How about this?

 

I won't post at all here starting this weekend. Since we can't ever seem to get along and play nice and it's making the site harder and harder to read...let's say, two full weeks, until July 18th?

 

Deal?

Quit the martyr act. Post how Robin needs to get fired all you wish, just don't write it is getting tiring. If it really was tiring, the solution is to stop. No one is forcing you to continue with the same theme. Plenty will pick up the slack. Besides, since you are the one saying the team has no talent, all the prospects suck, and the team will suck for years unless they spend $150 million, why would you even care who is managing the team?

[caulfield12]

Quit the martyr act. Post how Robin needs to get fired all you wish, just don't write it is getting tiring. If it really was tiring, the solution is to stop. No one is forcing you to continue with the same theme. Plenty will pick up the slack. Besides, since you are the one saying the team has no talent, all the prospects suck, and the team will suck for years unless they spend $150 million, why would you even care who is managing the team?

 

 

Haha, well, you can go on during that time fighting with Balta. That should keep you busy.

 

Tiresome? Stop? That's exactly what's happening to most White Sox fans these days.

 

As far as the team goes, there is enough talent to be at least competitive, but certainly not enough to survive all the defensive and baserunning blunders, lack of execution/fundamentals, erratic bullpen, etc.

 

I've said for a couple of weeks now that even if they trade Quintana and spend $150 million (that wouldn't even get you Heyward's attention), there's no guarantee of a team competing for a playoff spot.

 

Some argue the AL Central is the toughest...some that it has the most parity and that it's easy to find five weaknesses with each and every team without thinking much about it. In that sense, the job isn't as difficult as the Cubs trying to knock off the Cardinals, but there's no Milwaukee in this division. The Indians have one of the best young pitching staffs in baseball, along with Kipnis/Brantley/Y.Gomes/C.Santana/Lindor as a core. And they're not even close to the playoff hunt, either. With all that said, I will continue to believe the White Sox with a better manager would be 2-3-4 games better. And that's what it will take to compete in the AL Central, not giving away so many winnable games.

 

Mental toughness. That's probably not the first phrase that comes to mind with this organization in the last 3-4 years talking to scouts and front office execs around the game.

 

 

 

 

[elrockinMT]

I am not taking a stand here but watching baseball commentators talking about the call for Ozzie's return and the consensus was the Sox went from crazy to calm and don't want to return to crazy LOL

[greg775]

Quit the martyr act. Post how Robin needs to get fired all you wish, just don't write it is getting tiring. If it really was tiring, the solution is to stop. No one is forcing you to continue with the same theme. Plenty will pick up the slack. Besides, since you are the one saying the team has no talent, all the prospects suck, and the team will suck for years unless they spend $150 million, why would you even care who is managing the team?

 

Personally I feel like I've reached the "I don't care; this team sucks" stage as a Sox fan. I still want the Sox to win every game but now that Paulie is retired there are no ties to 2005 anymore except Coop, KW and Jerry. Damn, is Coop the last guy wearing a uniform from 05?

I'd be more fair to Caulfield. I think he realizes this team does indeed suck except for Sale and Abreu and sometimes Q and Robertson and A. Garcia. The rest of the guys blow.

I think caulfield wants the team to win; he just realizes it is a pathetic team. And now that we've had 10 years of s***tiness, it does indeed seem like 05 was a fluke. I 'd never have thought that, but it seems like it was a fluke.

I wish I could be like Elrockin, but we're gonna need some more Sales and Abreu's. There's NOTHING to hate about those guys; there's a lot to hate about most of the other guys on the roster.

[Jerksticks]

Exactly, it's the guys on the roster that's the obvious problem. I just feel bad for the knee-jerk people that need somebody to pay for these atrocious sins of losing baseball. What's up with that attitude? It's the same type of person that actually uses their car horn and gets mad on the road for some weird reason. Impatience is one of the worst traits a man can have, bottom line. It does him no positive service. Rick Hahn and the FO have done a wonderful job transitioning from the 05 swan song tire-fire teams to this new young core. Give it a few more years folks.

[greg775]

Exactly, it's the guys on the roster that's the obvious problem. I just feel bad for the knee-jerk people that need somebody to pay for these atrocious sins of losing baseball. What's up with that attitude? It's the same type of person that actually uses their car horn and gets mad on the road for some weird reason. Impatience is one of the worst traits a man can have, bottom line. It does him no positive service. Rick Hahn and the FO have done a wonderful job transitioning from the 05 swan song tire-fire teams to this new young core. Give it a few more years folks.

I wouldn't say they've done a "wonderful" job, but the team has some good starting pitchers and an acceptable closer. Now they just have to build around Abreu and maybe A. Garcia and get rid of all the other everyday players.

[caulfield12]

Exactly, it's the guys on the roster that's the obvious problem. I just feel bad for the knee-jerk people that need somebody to pay for these atrocious sins of losing baseball. What's up with that attitude? It's the same type of person that actually uses their car horn and gets mad on the road for some weird reason. Impatience is one of the worst traits a man can have, bottom line. It does him no positive service. Rick Hahn and the FO have done a wonderful job transitioning from the 05 swan song tire-fire teams to this new young core. Give it a few more years folks.

 

Recently read an article about common traits of millionaires.

 

The author argued that the most important individual trait was decisiveness (not stubbornness).

 

The article also argued that decisive "leaders" are very hesitant to change that decision (once made) and don't waver or waffle or reverse their decision until they've patiently and carefully weighed every possible factor that went into the original decision.

 

If the front office is 100% behind Robin Ventura, then they should give him a contract extension and shut up the media and the blogosphere.

 

From what little glimpses we've had from KW/Hahn on this topic, it seems to be the exact opposite of decisiveness.

[ptatc]

Recently read an article about common traits of millionaires.

 

The author argued that the most important individual trait was decisiveness (not stubbornness).

 

The article also argued that decisive "leaders" are very hesitant to change that decision (once made) and don't waver or waffle or reverse their decision until they've patiently and carefully weighed every possible factor that went into the original decision.

 

If the front office is 100% behind Robin Ventura, then they should give him a contract extension and shut up the media and the blogosphere.

 

From what little glimpses we've had from KW/Hahn on this topic, it seems to be the exact opposite of decisiveness.

There is no correlation between being a driven business millionaire and being a good baseball executive. They are not out to make money at all costs they are there to evaluate and accumulate good baseball players.

 

Ventura just signed an extension. There is absolutely no reason to sign another, even if this team was playing well. Who cares what the media says. The worst thing they could do is run the team based on media reaction. Well, maybe not the worst. The worst may be listening to fans.

 

You're arguments are really starting to get away from anything baseball and are starting to sound personal. They are getting more creative but stick to the baseball reasons.

[JohnCangelosi]

If we could get Ozzie minus the circus surrounding him with his family posting on Twitter and all of the rest that goes with it I would hire him again in a heartbeat.

 

The truth is he wore out his welcome here and yes, he did quit on the team on his departure leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouth. But he is entertaining and

like it or not we don't win a championship without him at the helm.

 

Having such a mope for a manager you can appreciate the calls for someone with some zest like Ozzie. Obviously anything would be better than watching an awful

baseball team with a manager who appears he'd rather be chilling in California right now so I get it 100% and if it happened at least it would make White Sox baseball

entertaining and relevant again.

 

[Dick Allen]

Recently read an article about common traits of millionaires.

 

The author argued that the most important individual trait was decisiveness (not stubbornness).

 

The article also argued that decisive "leaders" are very hesitant to change that decision (once made) and don't waver or waffle or reverse their decision until they've patiently and carefully weighed every possible factor that went into the original decision.

 

If the front office is 100% behind Robin Ventura, then they should give him a contract extension and shut up the media and the blogosphere.

 

From what little glimpses we've had from KW/Hahn on this topic, it seems to be the exact opposite of decisiveness.

Didn't they give Robin Ventura a contract extension a year or so ago? Funny thing is, I am pretty sure KW is a millionaire, RH is a millionaire, JR is a millionaire if not billionaire, and RV is a millionaire. So apparently they have the traits you are looking for.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

I just hate how everyone is acting like they have a clue as to whether or not RV is even a good or bad manager. We know he isn't great tactically, but you know who is even worse? Mike Matheny, and his team has the best record in baseball. So that tells you how much difference that makes. Beyond tactics, none of us know anything.

 

You're all clamoring to fire RV because you want someone to blame, period. You have NOTHING to suggest that he's responsible for the failure of the team. The guy you're blaming for instilling poor fundamentals is the same guy you praised for instilling great fundamentals like two years ago. If he's fired, it will be a meaningless move that panders to the pitchfork mob. If that satisfies you, whatever, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with the team. This message board should be better than that.

[GreenSox]

You're all clamoring to fire RV because you want someone to blame, period. You have NOTHING to suggest that he's responsible for the failure of the team.

You could say the exact same thing every time a professional coach or manager is fired.

Result matter.

[Dick Allen]

I just hate how everyone is acting like they have a clue as to whether or not RV is even a good or bad manager. We know he isn't great tactically, but you know who is even worse? Mike Matheny, and his team has the best record in baseball. So that tells you how much difference that makes. Beyond tactics, none of us know anything.

 

You're all clamoring to fire RV because you want someone to blame, period. You have NOTHING to suggest that he's responsible for the failure of the team. The guy you're blaming for instilling poor fundamentals is the same guy you praised for instilling great fundamentals like two years ago. If he's fired, it will be a meaningless move that panders to the pitchfork mob. If that satisfies you, whatever, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with the team. This message board should be better than that.

But the Brewers fired their manager, and the Marlins fired their manager, and the Red Sox fired their pitching coach, and everything got a lot better. Oh wait.

 

The thing is, one person could not do the damage some think Robin Ventura does to the White Sox without RH, KW, or JR noticing.

 

The old" you can't fire all the players" line admits changing the manager isn't fixing the problem if the players are all still there. Maybe Robin resigns after the season, but the White Sox, and IMO rightfully so, aren't going to pin this failure all on him, fire him and hang him out in public for all the pitchforks.

[Eminor3rd]

You could say the exact same thing every time a professional coach or manager is fired.

Result matter.

 

Right, so blame the guys that affect the results. Blame Melky Cabrera and Adam Eaton and Jeff Samardzija and Alexei Ramirez, who are failing daily despite clearly having the skills, experience, and capability to succeed.

[Eminor3rd]

The old" you can't fire all the players" line admits changing the manager isn't fixing the problem if the players are all still there.

 

This, exactly. Everyone just wants someone to be fired so they they can say something happened. Is that actually satisfying? Wouldn't you all rather clamor for a change that would make the team better?