More evidence of Chicago media turning on Ventura

[Kyyle23]

And while I agree, if you're down enough on this franchise as I am such that you expect this team to continue losing for several years...comparing "rebuilding with the best pieces we could get for Chris Sale" and "letting Chris Sale be the dominant player on a losing team until he is traded in 2018 or gets hurt" at least motivates consideration of the "take the best offer you can" option.

 

nobody is as down on this franchise as you at the moment

[Balta1701]

nobody is as down on this franchise as you at the moment

The optimism last offseason didn't work out so well for those who had it.

[shysocks]

No. You will not get fair value for Chris Sale...

Then you don't bloody trade him and that's all there is to it. All the other stuff is window dressing to the core point, just independent events, red herrings that I don't even care to consider. You're just advocating for a different brand of mistake.

[Kyyle23]

The optimism last offseason didn't work out so well for those who had it.

 

s*** happens. 2 years ago the Angels were the offseason darlings after bringing in Pujols, Hamilton and CJ Wilson, expected to contend for a title. They fell flat on their faces and every player expected to put them over the top floundered. They flipped things around and corrected their course in one season.

 

 

Of course your response will be something along the lines of "why should i trust this organization to do the same thing?" and I cant answer that for you. You gave up on the team and front office, there is no argument i can make that will make you change your mind.

[Chicago White Sox]

The optimism last offseason didn't work out so well for those who had it.

You continue to speak as if the season has already ended. Why don't you wait and see what happens over the next 180 days before you pollute every thread with your non-stop gloom & doom. Despite your best efforts to convince us otherwise, the majority of the offense is underperforming. There will certainly be some guys who improve in the 2nd half, the question is to what extent. Might as well wait and see where Eaton, Avi, Melky, & LaRoche end up before declaring the franchise is as good as dead. Without question, the outlook should not be nearly as negative as you're conveying simply due to the pitching talent within the organization.

[LDF]

You continue to speak as if the season has already ended. Why don't you wait and see what happens over the next 180 days before you pollute every thread with your non-stop gloom & doom. Despite your best efforts to convince us otherwise, the majority of the offense is underperforming. There will certainly be some guys who improve in the 2nd half, the question is to what extent. Might as well wait and see where Eaton, Avi, Melky, & LaRoche end up before declaring the franchise is as good as dead. Without question, the outlook should not be nearly as negative as you're conveying simply due to the pitching talent within the organization.

 

maybe he is making statements that some are hesitant to state, maybe it is the opportunity to make this forum interesting by shaking the things up, or just maybe, he wants the sox to take advantage of the window of selling and trading for a better team of tomorrow.

[Lemon_44]

If you kept the starting rotation, minus Danks, along with Avi, Abreu, and Eaton in the field, then brought all minor leaguers up to fill out the roster, would we be able to tell the difference, record-wise? I doubt it.

 

Maybe Jerry and Ozzie can have a Steinbrenner/Billy Martin relationship.

[ptatc]

"Ride the Stone Pony" is next year's ad campaign.

No. That's a really bad visual.

[Dick Allen]

The optimism last offseason didn't work out so well for those who had it.

How did the pessimism work out for you?

[GreenSox]

You'll never get fair player value for Sale's quality as a pitcher +length of contract + price of contract.

But if you could get fair player value for the first two (quality + length of contract) you could take care of a lot of the price by having the other team take Danks and Melky (Sox really don't have that many bad contracts). Now saving JR money doesn't do much for the fans.

 

One area in which I think the gurus are wrong is that Sale's value is maximized in July. I think you can get a better return in December. In July, any roster contributor is off the table; further, it's harder to take bad contracts because they'd have to kick some other players off the roster.

 

That said, I doubt you could get player value + length of contract value for Sale. I still think that's 2 elites plus 2 other top 100 prospects.

[LDF]

"Ride the Stone Pony" is next year's ad campaign.

 

wasn't that a song???

[Balta1701]

One area in which I think the gurus are wrong is that Sale's value is maximized in July. I think you can get a better return in December. In July, any roster contributor is off the table; further, it's harder to take bad contracts because they'd have to kick some other players off the roster.

The counterpoint would be that teams are more salary-restricted in the middle of the year since they spent on free agents in the offseason and therefore could pay a premium in terms of talent to get a guy who has a limited current salary. How those 2 effects would balance out is hard to know.

[southsider2k5]

I think that's really because it's impossible to get his value. Sale is worth more than any player in baseball not named Trout or Harper.

 

Considering their contract situations, Sale is probably worth more. Trout has a huge contract. Sale is team controled for cheap until the next decade. Harper is nearly free agency and Arb years.

[southsider2k5]

It's an opinion piece. Plus, this made me laugh:

 

You can write an opinion piece and have it be halfways intelligent. This was not that article.

[LDF]

You'll never get fair player value for Sale's quality as a pitcher +length of contract + price of contract.

But if you could get fair player value for the first two (quality + length of contract) you could take care of a lot of the price by having the other team take Danks and Melky (Sox really don't have that many bad contracts). Now saving JR money doesn't do much for the fans.

 

One area in which I think the gurus are wrong is that Sale's value is maximized in July. I think you can get a better return in December. In July, any roster contributor is off the table; further, it's harder to take bad contracts because they'd have to kick some other players off the roster.

 

That said, I doubt you could get player value + length of contract value for Sale. I still think that's 2 elites plus 2 other top 100 prospects.

 

that is an excellent point and thinking outside the idea of trading Sale, the sox can use your point and i am sure they are, but for a fans perspective, that is how the sox max the rtn on any deal for a pitcher. the sox are in the drivers seat and if the other team do not want to play happy hap, screw them.

[greg775]

NO matter where you are on the Ventura firing, that reads like a fan boy wrote it. I should have read that on a fan site, not a newspaper. Awful.

Very true, southsider. That was an embarrassing opinion piece. Awful.

 

First of all, I'm not answering a ****ing survey question to read that column. Why do newspapers not seem to understand how the internet works in 2015? Never mind, I think I know the answer.

 

EDIT: Clicked the link again and I didn't have to take a survey. Whatever. That column's only function was to throw raw meat to the dogs.

 

Second, if you are calling for the White Sox to hire Ozzie, you are not thinking critically about the team. It is a lazy and stupid suggestion.

Newspapers are dead. Give them a break trying to stay afloat. It's not a lazy suggestion. It was just written like a fanboy like southsider said.

 

Do you think the Sox could get Ozzie on the agreement that...

 

- This is an interim job. No more, no less. You are helping the Sox try and save some face this year, while showing the rest of MLB Baseball that you are ready/capable to manage again. So you, Ozzie, are showcasing your talents for the rest of the league to see. We will be hiring a full time manager, after the season going forward.

Yes, but I forgot Miami is still paying him. So forget it. He won't do it unless Sox pay him handsomely.

 

omfg you people are clamoring for the return of Ozzie Guillen?

Yes! I feel vindicated. You must admit greg is Ozzie's biggest supporter on Soxtalk! I want Ozzie!

 

Ozzie as interim would be awesome. Grab some much needed headlines and attention to a terrible team. If we are going "in-house" I'd definitely prefer him to the other candidates for the full time job as well. Ideally we don't go down that path.

Yes, it would be an awesome summer suddenly. But no way they'll bring back Ozzie. This is why he got canned in the first place. His mouth.

[Quin]

Yes, it would be an awesome summer suddenly. But no way they'll bring back Ozzie. This is why he got canned in the first place. His mouth.

 

Also because his last few years were really bad.

[Eminor3rd]

Yes! I feel vindicated. You must admit greg is Ozzie's biggest supporter on Soxtalk! I want Ozzie!

 

I've never had any trouble admitting to that fact.

[kitekrazy]

First of all, I'm not answering a ****ing survey question to read that column. Why do newspapers not seem to understand how the internet works in 2015? Never mind, I think I know the answer.

 

EDIT: Clicked the link again and I didn't have to take a survey. Whatever. That column's only function was to throw raw meat to the dogs.

 

Second, if you are calling for the White Sox to hire Ozzie, you are not thinking critically about the team. It is a lazy and stupid suggestion.

 

That's how Ventura was hired.

 

[kitekrazy]

Out with Williams and Hahn, in with STEVE STONE. That's right, you heard me - put Stoney in charge of the whole production! He's always wanted to be a GM, and he's certainly smart enough to do so. The timing is right as he's at the end of his TV contract at the end of this season. He would pass the Jerry Reinsdorf loyalty program smell test, while at the same time he would bring in a new and fresh perspective on how to run an organization. And then once you install him in as GM or exec. VP of baseball ops or whatever, then let him find the right baseball mind to run things in the dugout.

 

I heard another Steve Stone say he had no desire to do this. He likes what he's doing now.

 

[Kyyle23]

I heard another Steve Stone say he had no desire to do this. He likes what he's doing now.

 

It is much easier to stand to the side and point out what is wrong, than it is to get in and try and fix it. Im sure Steve has seen many people he considers to be incredibly smart baseball men fail at that job, and doesnt want to become one of them

[kitekrazy]

And while I agree, if you're down enough on this franchise as I am such that you expect this team to continue losing for several years...comparing "rebuilding with the best pieces we could get for Chris Sale" and "letting Chris Sale be the dominant player on a losing team until he is traded in 2018 or gets hurt" at least motivates consideration of the "take the best offer you can" option.

 

Ugh! This logic would work with most organizations. The Sox are bad at evaluating and developing players. It's a crap shoot.

 

[kitekrazy]

If you kept the starting rotation, minus Danks, along with Avi, Abreu, and Eaton in the field, then brought all minor leaguers up to fill out the roster, would we be able to tell the difference, record-wise? I doubt it.

 

Maybe Jerry and Ozzie can have a Steinbrenner/Billy Martin relationship.

 

Steinbrenner would b**** about how his guys played. "The more we mess up the more he flies in the better chance of a plane crash." Craig Nettles

I don't think a modern day pussified player could tolerate Billy Martin who was a good manager.

 

[kitekrazy]

Funniest comment I read today.

 

How about we start a GoFundMe and buy the team?

[caulfield12]

The Mariners comp is a pretty good one...

 

Held onto aging star players too long (Ichiro is the best example) without getting anything back in return.

Got desperate and dealt their best prospect (Adam Jones) for an absolute bust in Bedard.

Developed a pitching staff in Hernandez, Iwakuma, Paxton, Walker that looked playoff ready...with Paxton/Walker representing Rodon and Fulmer.

Almost all of their young prospects busted (Smoak, Montero, Zunino and Ackley are both getting there, Ackley in particular)...

Filled in with free agent half measures like Logan Morrison, Corey Hart, Kendrys Morales (see White Sox 2011-2015).

 

They have come up with Seager and Adam Jones, much better than anything we've managed on the position side.

 

On the other hand, they have the Seattle market all to themselves, a better stadium (albeit not a good one for offense) and the early benefit of the $100-125 million added television/broadcast rights windfalls that we might not even receive in 2019.

 

They have done better with FA's (Cano last year, Cruz this year) but also missed a lot (see list above, and Adrian Beltre for most of his M's career). The false positive from last year, competing until the final week...pushed them into the Cruz deal this year, which will really start to weigh down the payroll, along with Felix and Cano.