More evidence of Chicago media turning on Ventura

[LDF]

This, exactly. Everyone just wants someone to be fired so they they can say something happened. Is that actually satisfying? Wouldn't you all rather clamor for a change that would make the team better?

 

and at that time, the most visible change will be, outside the FO, the manager. i keep saying this, i would really want a fiery manager at this time. shake up the team.

[OmarComing25]

Ventura is not a great manager, but if I had to pick I'd much rather see Williams go or Reinsdorf sell before him.

[ptatc]

and at that time, the most visible change will be, outside the FO, the manager. i keep saying this, i would really want a fiery manager at this time. shake up the team.

That's fine but it probably won't help. All types of managers win, calm, fiery, screamers, micromanagers. Just because it's different from the current one doesn't make it better. Just because it's what the fans want doesn't make it better. And one thing we know about fiery managers/coaches is that they have a strict shelf life.

[iamshack]

That's fine but it probably won't help. All types of managers win, calm, fiery, screamers, micromanagers. Just because it's different from the current one doesn't make it better. Just because it's what the fans want doesn't make it better. And one thing we know about fiery managers/coaches is that they have a strict shelf life.

I don't care if the manager is deaf and blind.

 

All I want is a team prepared to play on a daily basis.

 

This team is not that.

[ptatc]

I don't care if the manager is deaf and blind.

 

All I want is a team prepared to play on a daily basis.

 

This team is not that.

I agree. I'm just saying that the "type" or "style" doesn't matter. Picking one based on that shouldn't be a high priority. Although teams often do that, especially in baseball when they spend so much time together.

[LittleHurt05]

Right, so blame the guys that affect the results. Blame Melky Cabrera and Adam Eaton and Jeff Samardzija and Alexei Ramirez, who are failing daily despite clearly having the skills, experience, and capability to succeed.

 

How is it Alexei Ramirez's fault that he'd old? And it's arguable whether or not Adam Eaton has the capability to succeed, I tend to think he overachieves based on his effort.

 

Do you also blame Tyler Flowers, Gordon Beckham, and Conor Gillaspie for being bad at baseball?

 

Are we allowed to place any blame at the feet of the people who brought these players in?

[caulfield12]

How is it Alexei Ramirez's fault that he'd old? And it's arguable whether or not Adam Eaton has the capability to succeed, I tend to think he overachieves based on his effort.

 

Do you also blame Tyler Flowers, Gordon Beckham, and Conor Gillaspie for being bad at baseball?

 

Are we allowed to place any blame at the feet of the people who brought these players in?

 

Last night, there was miscommunication between him and Cabrera. Before that, Eaton and Alexei. I think he even got confused with the count, too. For all of his abundant energy, it's not nearly as focused or properly-directed this season.

 

And, as far as Mike Matheny goes, I haven't seen scouts consistently describing their level of play as lackadaisical or embarrassing this year.

Edited July 2, 2015 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

That's fine but it probably won't help. All types of managers win, calm, fiery, screamers, micromanagers. Just because it's different from the current one doesn't make it better. Just because it's what the fans want doesn't make it better. And one thing we know about fiery managers/coaches is that they have a strict shelf life.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/gm-jerry-dipo...-215115777.html

 

According to Passan, Scioscia is the last "all encompassing power" manager left in the game today, with LaRussa gone.

[ptatc]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/gm-jerry-dipo...-215115777.html

 

According to Passan, Scioscia is the last "all encompassing power" manager left in the game today, with LaRussa gone.

OK

[iamshack]

So let me ask this question then...is it not the manager's primary role to have his team prepared to play every night?

 

 

[Dick Allen]

So let me ask this question then...is it not the manager's primary role to have his team prepared to play every night?

Let me ask this....how do you know they aren't as prepared as another human being can make them. Can't you prepare someone about as well as can be prepared, and they still screw up? I have used this before, but have you gone to a restaurant and ordered a sandwich or something using specific instructions (like for me, no mayo) and when you unwrap the sandwich, see it wasn't prepared using your instructions? If I said please no mayo, and it is loaded with mayo, is that because I didn't manage the situation correctly to begin with? Hawk actually went off a little on Alexei the other night with 0 out and a guy on second, making no attempt toward RF. He kept saying Steverson spends batting practice telling guys to get the runner over. At some point, you have to look at the professionals getting paid millions of dollars, many make more in 6 months than most people make in a lifetime, and determine they have to execute. I think it is pretty damning that it is even considered you have to actually teach players the most basic fundamentals after they reach the major leagues.

[greg775]

If we could get Ozzie minus the circus surrounding him with his family posting on Twitter and all of the rest that goes with it I would hire him again in a heartbeat.

 

The truth is he wore out his welcome here and yes, he did quit on the team on his departure leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouth. But he is entertaining and

like it or not we don't win a championship without him at the helm.

 

Having such a mope for a manager you can appreciate the calls for someone with some zest like Ozzie. Obviously anything would be better than watching an awful

baseball team with a manager who appears he'd rather be chilling in California right now so I get it 100% and if it happened at least it would make White Sox baseball

entertaining and relevant again.

Not everyone's mouth. ... I understand the real world and Ozzie's departure, the way it went down, didn't bother me at all.

 

I just hate how everyone is acting like they have a clue as to whether or not RV is even a good or bad manager. We know he isn't great tactically, but you know who is even worse? Mike Matheny, and his team has the best record in baseball. So that tells you how much difference that makes. Beyond tactics, none of us know anything.

 

You're all clamoring to fire RV because you want someone to blame, period. You have NOTHING to suggest that he's responsible for the failure of the team. The guy you're blaming for instilling poor fundamentals is the same guy you praised for instilling great fundamentals like two years ago. If he's fired, it will be a meaningless move that panders to the pitchfork mob. If that satisfies you, whatever, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with the team. This message board should be better than that.

Somebody has to take the blame for all the weird losing streaks this team inexplicably goes on. They'll do something positive then immediately play like imbeciles. I think Hahn and KW are to blame more than Robin because we have several guys playing everyday that don't belong in the big leagues or are rotten big leaguers.

[iamshack]

Let me ask this....how do you know they aren't as prepared as another human being can make them. Can't you prepare someone about as well as can be prepared, and they still screw up? I have used this before, but have you gone to a restaurant and ordered a sandwich or something using specific instructions (like for me, no mayo) and when you unwrap the sandwich, see it wasn't prepared using your instructions? If I said please no mayo, and it is loaded with mayo, is that because I didn't manage the situation correctly to begin with? Hawk actually went off a little on Alexei the other night with 0 out and a guy on second, making no attempt toward RF. He kept saying Steverson spends batting practice telling guys to get the runner over. At some point, you have to look at the professionals getting paid millions of dollars, many make more in 6 months than most people make in a lifetime, and determine they have to execute. I think it is pretty damning that it is even considered you have to actually teach players the most basic fundamentals after they reach the major leagues.

Yes, I honestly don't know. All I know is this lack of preparation has been a relative hallmark for the previous 2.5 seasons, spanning several different players, both homegrown and acquired via trades or free agency.

 

The common denominator seems to be either the coaching staff or the Front Office has an uncanny ability to bring in the same type of lacksidasical, unfocused or undisciplined player over and over again.

 

I tend to think it's the former.

[southsider2k5]

If we could get Ozzie minus the circus surrounding him with his family posting on Twitter and all of the rest that goes with it I would hire him again in a heartbeat.

 

The truth is he wore out his welcome here and yes, he did quit on the team on his departure leaving a bad taste in everyone's mouth. But he is entertaining and

like it or not we don't win a championship without him at the helm.

 

Having such a mope for a manager you can appreciate the calls for someone with some zest like Ozzie. Obviously anything would be better than watching an awful

baseball team with a manager who appears he'd rather be chilling in California right now so I get it 100% and if it happened at least it would make White Sox baseball

entertaining and relevant again.

 

Getting Ozzie without the circus is like getting Adam Dunn without the strikeouts. Impossible.

[Eminor3rd]

How is it Alexei Ramirez's fault that he'd old? And it's arguable whether or not Adam Eaton has the capability to succeed, I tend to think he overachieves based on his effort.

 

Do you also blame Tyler Flowers, Gordon Beckham, and Conor Gillaspie for being bad at baseball?

 

Are we allowed to place any blame at the feet of the people who brought these players in?

 

1. Alexei is not too old to lay off s***ty pitches. He's not too old to make routine 15 foot throws to second base. If Alexei's pile of stupid errors aren't his own fault, how are you going to blame the manager? Has he not had enough reps in his 8 year ML career as an above average and sometimes elite defender that he needs some coaching to prepare him to play defense during a baseball game?

 

2. I explicitly did NOT blame Flowers/Beckham/etc. for being bad baseball players. Do you blame Robin for them being bad baseball players?

 

3. Eaton put up a 3-win season last year with no unsustainable peripherals -- even if he's not a true-talent 3-win player, he is at least capable of being league-average.

 

Regarding "the people who brought these players in (Hahn & Co., not Robin Ventura)": If these guys were putting up level of production that were even within an entire standard of deviation of what they were expected to do, and our team was STILL completely out of contention, I would grab a pitchfork and blame Hahn. But I do NOT blame Hahn for Melky Cabrera putting up numbers that are SUBSTANTIALLY worse than anything he's ever done at any level, including when he was playing with a tumor on his spine, ESPECIALLY coming off of his career year which just so happened to have occurred AFTER he served his PED suspension. Eaton's terrible performance is slightly less surprising only because he has much less of a track record, so anything would be less surprising. Going into the season, there were a ton of scenarios that could have unfolded where we would be totally justified in blaming Hahn for simply not putting enough on the field to justify his expenditures, but to blame him for what actually happened isn't reasonable because it isn't one of those scenarios. I mean if you truly believed that Melky/Eaton/Samardzija/whoever was going to perform THIS badly, then you can complain, but their performances are simply way worse than ANY professional expected as far as we can tell.

 

The pieces on the field are capable of success, albeit without much margin for error. The pieces on the field, though, s*** the bed in the worst way, completely blowing that margin for error out of the water. They did not deliver what they were expected to deliver, even within reasonable margins of error, so I blame them instead of their employer.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Eminor3rd

[southsider2k5]

1. Alexei is not too old to lay off s***ty pitches. He's not too old to make routine 15 foot throws to second base. If Alexei's pile of stupid errors aren't his own fault, how are you going to blame the manager? Has he not had enough reps in his 8 year ML career as an above average and sometimes elite defender that he needs some coaching to prepare him to play defense during a baseball game?

 

I would definately quibble with any idea that Robin was responsible for Alexei being a horrible fundamental player. I know within his first couple of years here, I used to call Alexei a hummingbird with ADHD for the amount of mental mistakes he made at the plate, on the bases, and in the field. It got a bit better while Omar was here, but other than that, he has always been a pretty baseball dumb player. It was always his plus abilities as a defender that covered up a lot of that. These things happened while Ozzie was here too. I don't know if people are forgetting that or not, but this isn't a new thing.

[Chicago White Sox]

I just hate how everyone is acting like they have a clue as to whether or not RV is even a good or bad manager. We know he isn't great tactically, but you know who is even worse? Mike Matheny, and his team has the best record in baseball. So that tells you how much difference that makes. Beyond tactics, none of us know anything.

 

You're all clamoring to fire RV because you want someone to blame, period. You have NOTHING to suggest that he's responsible for the failure of the team. The guy you're blaming for instilling poor fundamentals is the same guy you praised for instilling great fundamentals like two years ago. If he's fired, it will be a meaningless move that panders to the pitchfork mob. If that satisfies you, whatever, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with the team. This message board should be better than that.

So none of us "have a clue as to whether or not Robin is a good or bad manger", but if he's fired "it will be a meaningless move that panders to the pitchfork mob". So in other words, you're arguing that managers are essentially worthless, which I find to be a laughable notion. Just because you're unable to quantity a manager's value, doesn't mean they provide none.

[Eminor3rd]

So none of us "have a clue as to whether or not Robin is a good or bad manger", but if he's fired "it will be a meaningless move that panders to the pitchfork mob". So in other words, you're arguing that managers are essentially worthless, which I find to be a laughable notion. Just because you're unable to quantity a manager's value, doesn't mean they provide none.

 

That is very much NOT what I'm saying. There are two points that you referenced:

 

So none of us "have a clue as to whether or not Robin is a good or bad manger",

 

Yes, you and I and everyone here are ignorant of RV's affect on the baseball team outside of (1) his tactical, in-game decisions and (2) what is reported by the players/media. It's been demonstrated that the difference between the best and woprst tactical managers has a miniscule effect on wins, and the players and media are not giving us anything to suggest that RV is offending his clubhouse or promoting laziness. So we have nothing. It sucks but that's how it is. We can speculate, but speculation is worthless. Like how that Cards blog is speculating that Randall Grichuk is a 6-win player going forward -- it's certainly plausible, but there exists nothing to suggest it will occur.

 

but if he's fired "it will be a meaningless move that panders to the pitchfork mob".

 

It will be meaningless because the notion that RV's coaching is causing several key veterans to hit worse than they've ever hit in their lives is insane. That is NOT a claim that manager's are meaningless, it's a response to the ridiculous claim that most of you are making, which is that RV's managing has led to unprecedented performance disasters among several veterans who have demonstrated that ability to perform MUCH better in the recent past, despite the fact that many of those players performed substantially better UNDER THE SAME COACHING STAFF over the past two seasons.

 

You (the collective you) are making a strong claim as to the cause of the team's failure, but you are providing no evidence to back it up. In the midst of a lack of evidence, Occam's Razor demands a simpler explanation that has precedent: the players are not executing. There exists no evidence that they are not capable, and there exists no evidence of strife in the dugout.

[Balta1701]

and there exists no evidence of strife in the dugout.

So far this year we have Alexei calling out Robin after he didn't challenge the 9th inning play in that loss, Eaton being benched for his refusal to play where the coaching staff wants him to, and then Eaton also completely failing to hustle to 1b a couple days later. It's not the Bobby Valentine Red Sox, but it's not nothing.

[southsider2k5]

So far this year we have Alexei calling out Robin after he didn't challenge the 9th inning play in that loss, Eaton being benched for his refusal to play where the coaching staff wants him to, and then Eaton also completely failing to hustle to 1b a couple days later. It's not the Bobby Valentine Red Sox, but it's not nothing.

 

That is "strife"? What would you call what is happening in Anaheim?

[Balta1701]

That is "strife"? What would you call what is happening in Anaheim?

"Much closer to the Bobby Valentine Red Sox".

[LDF]

That's fine but it probably won't help. All types of managers win, calm, fiery, screamers, micromanagers. Just because it's different from the current one doesn't make it better. Just because it's what the fans want doesn't make it better. And one thing we know about fiery managers/coaches is that they have a strict shelf life.

but in that time of the fiery tempered manager, this team would have been turned around and/or players who would be identified would be gone.

 

a fiery manager can change his way of working with players, later.

[iamshack]

1. Alexei is not too old to lay off s***ty pitches. He's not too old to make routine 15 foot throws to second base. If Alexei's pile of stupid errors aren't his own fault, how are you going to blame the manager? Has he not had enough reps in his 8 year ML career as an above average and sometimes elite defender that he needs some coaching to prepare him to play defense during a baseball game?

 

2. I explicitly did NOT blame Flowers/Beckham/etc. for being bad baseball players. Do you blame Robin for them being bad baseball players?

 

3. Eaton put up a 3-win season last year with no unsustainable peripherals -- even if he's not a true-talent 3-win player, he is at least capable of being league-average.

 

Regarding "the people who brought these players in (Hahn & Co., not Robin Ventura)": If these guys were putting up level of production that were even within an entire standard of deviation of what they were expected to do, and our team was STILL completely out of contention, I would grab a pitchfork and blame Hahn. But I do NOT blame Hahn for Melky Cabrera putting up numbers that are SUBSTANTIALLY worse than anything he's ever done at any level, including when he was playing with a tumor on his spine, ESPECIALLY coming off of his career year which just so happened to have occurred AFTER he served his PED suspension. Eaton's terrible performance is slightly less surprising only because he has much less of a track record, so anything would be less surprising. Going into the season, there were a ton of scenarios that could have unfolded where we would be totally justified in blaming Hahn for simply not putting enough on the field to justify his expenditures, but to blame him for what actually happened isn't reasonable because it isn't one of those scenarios. I mean if you truly believed that Melky/Eaton/Samardzija/whoever was going to perform THIS badly, then you can complain, but their performances are simply way worse than ANY professional expected as far as we can tell.

 

The pieces on the field are capable of success, albeit without much margin for error. The pieces on the field, though, s*** the bed in the worst way, completely blowing that margin for error out of the water. They did not deliver what they were expected to deliver, even within reasonable margins of error, so I blame them instead of their employer.

Let me ask you this:

 

Is it possible that the current culture of our organization or our big league clubhouse could have this kind of affect on performance? Is this type of underperformance symptomatic of how our organization is being managed/coached/developed?

[ptatc]

but in that time of the fiery tempered manager, this team would have been turned around and/or players who would be identified would be gone.

 

a fiery manager can change his way of working with players, later.

No. a fiery manager cannot get rid of players anymore than a calm one. Either manager must go to the GM. A fiery manager cannot change his way of working with players anymore than a calm manager. Either one can change tactics.

 

The only difference is that some players will respond better to one than the other. I think it's been shown that most players of today do not respond as well to an old school fiery manger and respond better to a "players coach."

[harkness99]

The White Sox success at St Louis kind of shows me how this team does have potential.

 

I did like it when Eaton scored on that dumb base running play and he walks in and people are high fiving him... Robin just leaves his hands at his side and shakes his head like NO.

 

Robin is probably a smart guy... I say this because of his witty sense of humor.

 

But I just don't think he has the "It" factor... its something that's hard to quantify for sure.

 

It doesn't matter if its a laid back type like Robin or a fiery type... some coaches just have that knack.

 

After seeing Robin for all these years I'm about 90% sure he doesn't have it.