More evidence of Chicago media turning on Ventura

[Balta1701]

This is one of those things where speculation rules. It's the same thing as the manager thing -- we don't know if he's on PEDs or not, we don't know WHEN he was and wasn't, we don't know WHAT he was on, and we don't know how much it helped or didn't help. You're welcome to jump to whichever conclusions that you want regarding all of that, but if you're being intellectually honest, you should acknowledge that you don't actually KNOW what you're talking about here. None of us do.

 

Regardless -- we're talking about what Hahn should/could have expected from Melky this year. If you're going to argue that he should have planned for a 60-something wRC+, I just don't think you have any ground to stand on. This year is WAY off everything we've seen over the entire roller coaster of his career for the past five years.

How about I just argue he shouldn't be spending $40 million on 30 year old+ proven steroid abusers and then counting on them to be key parts of his roster? Or that just in general "Free Agency is an extremely poor way to try to build a losing roster into a winning one".

 

Oh, and we absolutely do know he was juicing in 2012. 100%. He actually tested positive and was suspended.

[LDF]

Let's say it this way. You're a player who is on a team that has been crap for 3 straight seasons. You've got your money. The guy next to you made 3 errors yesterday to give away the game, or the pitcher was left in too long and gave away the game, or your manager gave away the game when he didn't trust you enough to ask for a replay. There's a decent chance you're going to be traded or the guy starting next to you will be traded. Are you going to be 100% ready every day? Are you going to put in the extra set in the weight room or are you maybe going to take it a little easier this time?

 

Human nature is going to involve running out of motivation for a losing squad. The only thing keeping people going for a systematically flawed organization is their own professionalism and that can only take them so far. The greatest manager in the world can't help with that.

 

I think a much bigger indictment of the management staff is how this team comes out of spring training every year. They come out showing the same flaws that I mentioned above - people pushed too rapidly, no changes in approach, losing games to put themselves in the spot at the bottom of the division because it's not about how ready the team is for the season, it's only about TWTW on the field. That's when stuff ought to be correctable and workable. That's when people ought to know "Hey the ball's hit to me I should hit the cutoff man" or "I've got a guy in a rundown the correct move is to run at the guy not to throw the ball".

 

The one year where we didn't behave that way was 2012, with a brand new manager. We came out of ST as the complete opposite of that. I think the only person who did a rundown incorrectly on that roster that year was Youkilis and he started the year with the Red Sox. We got out of our comfort zone somehow and it produced our only above .500 team in the last 5 seasons. Then we fell back into our old habits, because that's the norm for the entire organization. Guys who needed to work to improve from 2012 didn't, guys who had good years in 2012 were content with their performance, and by May of 2013 the manager had the whole team out doing fundamentals work before a game to shame them for how poorly they were performing on the basics again.

 

but i think that is the key to the whole situation, it starts as the little dutch kid who has his finger in a hole in a dam. all it takes is 1 item that is detrimental that should have been done.

 

let me also further explain my point, who would know what that little "item" will be that will cause this mess to start, but it is the triggering effect that started this. but don't get me wrong, a lot of this is also on the players esp the attitudes. there are pro's.

 

but this is my opinion

[AlSoxfan]

I would completely agree with you except for one thing, which is why I see no reason to "blow this up" like many are saying.

 

What I want to see out of the roster on a day-in and day-out basis, namely, solid, fundamental defense and situational hitting, is just nowhere close to occurring. I really don't care one way or another whether we win 80 games or 70 games this season. All I am asking is that this roster start showing signs of playing the kind of ball moving forward where with some additional tweaks and some development by the younger players, one can see scenarios where they compete for the division in the next 2-3 years.

 

Unfortunately, we're seeing a bunch of sloppy bulls*** which basically negates the talent on our roster because we are giving away runs and outs on a daily basis with no sign of any progress being made whatsoever.

 

For me, it's not about wins and losses; it's about the way we are playing which leads me to the same consistent conclusion. The coaching staff simply has to go.

yep...yes an I agree

[Dick Allen]

How many people here have ever hired someone who turned out to be crappy at their job? Or managed someone who turned out to be bad enough he or she needed to be fired?

 

Did you ever consider their failure was grounds for you to lose your job? In some cases it is, but in sports, many seem to think it ALWAYS is.

[Balta1701]

How many people here have ever hired someone who turned out to be crappy at their job? Or managed someone who turned out to be bad enough he or she needed to be fired?

 

Did you ever consider their failure was grounds for you to lose your job? In some cases it is, but in sports, many seem to think it ALWAYS is.

I will trade that lack of job security for a multi-million dollar salary. Deal?

[iamshack]

To the bolded: absolutely. The FO is in the best position to evaluate him, so we have little choice but to trust them. We may not WANT to trust them, but we aren't privy to clubhouse dynamics like they are.

 

To the second point: I agree, I have not seen anything to suggest RV is adding value to the organization. However, there has been a lot of work done to try to evaluate what a manager CAN contribute, and most of it points to the idea that the manager doesn't make much of a difference at the end of the day. That is NOT to say that the manager's job isn't important, but rather that the difference between the best manager in baseball and the worst is relatively small.

 

So, you're right: I have no grounds and little interest in defending RV. I just think it's silly to spend so much time being so sure he needs to go because I don't think doing so fixes the team.

Curious as to what the metrics are for measuring that. Are the measurements based on the impact on the actual 9-inning game that the manager has within his control (lineups, pitching decisions, strategical/tactical decisions, etc.)?

 

How does one measure a manager's ability to have his team ready to perform on a daily basis? How does one measure a manager's ability to get a roster all pulling in the same direction?

 

Say what you want about how big of an impact a decision to steal with 2-outs in the 7th has in a tight game. But what about the ability to have a veteran come in and hit to his potential as opposed to one or two standard deviations below his potential over the course of a year like we are seeing?

Edited July 3, 2015 by iamshack

[Eminor3rd]

Curious as to what the metrics are for measuring that. Are the measurements based on the impact on the actual 9-inning game that the manager has within his control (lineups, pitching decisions, strategical/tactical decisions, etc.)?

 

How does one measure a manager's ability to have his team ready to perform on a daily basis? How does one measure a manager's ability to get a roster all pulling in the same direction?

 

Say what you want about how big of an impact a decision to steal with 2-outs in the 7th has in a tight game. But what about the ability to have a veteran come in and hit to his potential as opposed to one or two standard deviations below his potential over the course of a year like we are seeing?

 

That's exactly my point, shack: we know that a manager affects these things, but we don't know how much and we don't know if a guy is helping or hurting. So, again, I'm not claiming anything about Robin, because I don't know. YOU (the collective you) are claiming that Robin is failing at making his veterans perform. How do you know? If you want to make the argument that the failure of a pinch-hitting veteran is RV's fault, you are then claiming that a different coach would make the difference. Demonstrate that.

 

Research has not been able to find correlations between any specific manager and any specific ability or characteristic. The studies are hazy because not much is found. There appear to be some managers who consistently keep their players in position to perofrm at their best -- until all of a sudden they can't anymore. Ron Gardenhire was god until he wasn't god anymore. Joe Maddon was a miracle man until the miracles stopped. Joe Torre was a bum until he landed in the Evil Empire during it's period of being the Microsoft of baseball. Who is next? Clint Hurdle, maybe?

 

I don't have any bookmarked articles like I often do, because manager stuff has always kind of put me off. It's so cloudy and frustrating that I haven't been drawn to it. But if you Google around or klook at some of the classic books, you'll see a lot of effort put into trying to isolate it to very little success. This is why, when posters start saying stuff like the team isn't prepared on a daily basis" and "RV has to make the batters move the runners over instead of striking out," I gotta call shenanigans. NONE of us know how prepared the team is. NONE of us know what they work on or what the coaches tell them to do in big situations. It's WAY more likely that they're being told to succeed in all of the glaringly obvious ways that we all know players can succeed, but they're simply failing. Alexei Ramirez does NOT need extra ground-ball practice. That's NOT the difference. A pep talk might help sometimes,l or it might not, but none of us know.

[iamshack]

That's exactly my point, shack: we know that a manager affects these things, but we don't know how much and we don't know if a guy is helping or hurting. So, again, I'm not claiming anything about Robin, because I don't know. YOU (the collective you) are claiming that Robin is failing at making his veterans perform. How do you know? If you want to make the argument that the failure of a pinch-hitting veteran is RV's fault, you are then claiming that a different coach would make the difference. Demonstrate that.

 

Research has not been able to find correlations between any specific manager and any specific ability or characteristic. The studies are hazy because not much is found. There appear to be some managers who consistently keep their players in position to perofrm at their best -- until all of a sudden they can't anymore. Ron Gardenhire was god until he wasn't god anymore. Joe Maddon was a miracle man until the miracles stopped. Joe Torre was a bum until he landed in the Evil Empire during it's period of being the Microsoft of baseball. Who is next? Clint Hurdle, maybe?

 

I don't have any bookmarked articles like I often do, because manager stuff has always kind of put me off. It's so cloudy and frustrating that I haven't been drawn to it. But if you Google around or klook at some of the classic books, you'll see a lot of effort put into trying to isolate it to very little success. This is why, when posters start saying stuff like the team isn't prepared on a daily basis" and "RV has to make the batters move the runners over instead of striking out," I gotta call shenanigans. NONE of us know how prepared the team is. NONE of us know what they work on or what the coaches tell them to do in big situations. It's WAY more likely that they're being told to succeed in all of the glaringly obvious ways that we all know players can succeed, but they're simply failing. Alexei Ramirez does NOT need extra ground-ball practice. That's NOT the difference. A pep talk might help sometimes,l or it might not, but none of us know.

Eminor, I smell what you are stepping in, and I know that our coaching staff understands enough about the game of baseball so as to recognize when guys aren't ready to play. We can't be so naive as to think we message board posters see things that people who have been in the game their entire life at this level don't see.

 

In the meantime, as we often hear in professional sports, "this is a results business." This is not a court of law; we do not need to "prove" beyond a reasonable doubt that Robin is to blame. Unfortunately for Robin and his staff, all that needs to be demonstrated occurs on the field, and to even a very untrained eye, this ball club for the last several years has not played fundamentally sound baseball. At the very least, especially with a team that has a number of young and/or developing players, we need to see them play fundamentally sound baseball.

 

If this doesn't start or end with the coaching staff of the big league club, where does it start or where does it end? And once that is identified, wholesale changes need to be made. I sure hope eventually they are. Because frankly, almost no amount of talent is going to overcome the lack of fundamental play this team has exhibited over the last 500 games.

[LittleHurt05]

How many people here have ever hired someone who turned out to be crappy at their job? Or managed someone who turned out to be bad enough he or she needed to be fired?

 

Did you ever consider their failure was grounds for you to lose your job? In some cases it is, but in sports, many seem to think it ALWAYS is.

 

How many people here signed guaranteed multi year contracts from their employers? Let's stop with the comparison of sports to real life employment.

[greg775]

One thing about Robin. He has nine lives. If he can get this team back to .500 he'll be beloved again.

[Kyyle23]

One thing about Robin. He has nine lives. If he can get this team back to .500 he'll be beloved again.

 

He was never a beloved manager

[LDF]

here is a question,

 

when the sox are loosing, many are saying and i am included, RV was at fault many times. now with the sox are winning, should any give RV credit for that??

[BigFinn]

Baseball is such a frustrating game, but I love it.

 

Last Sunday, with the Shark rolling along into the 8th inning, Robin lets him pitch out of the first spate of trouble he's faced all day. In less than five minutes he gives up four runs and hits the showers with a 4-4 game instead of a 4-0 lead.

 

Yesterday, same pitcher rolling along into the 8th inning, Robin pulls him because he gave up a base knock after he had a spate of trouble in the 7th. In comes Putnam, out goes the lead: 2-0 becomes 2-2.

 

We're all happy that everything worked out yesterday: Beckham got on base, Alexei got the bunt down to move Beckham over, Shuck strokes a double down the line, Avi makes a spectacular catch to save the game, and Robertson gets a punch out on the inside corner to close the game.

 

But look at it from Robin's perspective:

 

If doesn't seem to matter if he keeps Shark in or pulls him, the late lead will be toast.

How many times has Beckham failed to get on base this year? For his whole White Sox career?

How many times has Alexei failed to get a bunt down?

If Beckham isn't in scoring position, Shuck might not be pinch hitting with the game in balance.

 

It's the players that make the manager, or as Nuke Laloosh would learn to say, "You win as a team; you lose as a team."

 

This is the one season that if the players don't get the job done, then the GM (hopefully Rick Hahn) could move the players and not necessarily the manager.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Baseball is such a frustrating game, but I love it.

 

Last Sunday, with the Shark rolling along into the 8th inning, Robin lets him pitch out of the first spate of trouble he's faced all day. In less than five minutes he gives up four runs and hits the showers with a 4-4 game instead of a 4-0 lead.

 

Yesterday, same pitcher rolling along into the 8th inning, Robin pulls him because he gave up a base knock after he had a spate of trouble in the 7th. In comes Putnam, out goes the lead: 2-0 becomes 2-2.

 

We're all happy that everything worked out yesterday: Beckham got on base, Alexei got the bunt down to move Beckham over, Shuck strokes a double down the line, Avi makes a spectacular catch to save the game, and Robertson gets a punch out on the inside corner to close the game.

 

But look at it from Robin's perspective:

 

If doesn't seem to matter if he keeps Shark in or pulls him, the late lead will be toast.

How many times has Beckham failed to get on base this year? For his whole White Sox career?

How many times has Alexei failed to get a bunt down?

If Beckham isn't in scoring position, Shuck might not be pinch hitting with the game in balance.

 

It's the players that make the manager, or as Nuke Laloosh would learn to say, "You win as a team; you lose as a team."

 

This is the one season that if the players don't get the job done, then the GM (hopefully Rick Hahn) could move the players and not necessarily the manager.

 

You summed it all up very nicely. Many here want Robing gone (myself included ,I've been on that train a while). It's always one half of the lineup or roster that doesn't support the other half. There's been so many innings that the Sox can get 2 men on base then there's DP or just not enough good bats to string a big inning together. Yesterday was a good example of that .Even on this 4 game streak ,the Sox have won 2-1, 3-2 and 1-0 . It's one of the rare times there's been great pitching and just enough hitting to eek out some wins.

 

Those kind of wins just aren't sustainable. Our hitting and defense just isn't good enough and outside of Shuck neither is the bench.

[Soxfest]

One thing about Robin. He has nine lives. If he can get this team back to .500 he'll be beloved again.

No.

[Douglas Rome]

how's 'bout this>>> fire RV, hire Ozzie, Sox win the pennant!!!

thanks, douglas

[southsider2k5]

how's 'bout this>>> fire RV, hire Ozzie, Sox win the pennant!!!

thanks, douglas

 

[Douglas Rome]

there isn't a single position player that doesn't need improved. I suppose you could

say that about every player, even Mickey Mantle, but these nine guys on the CWS

all just plain suck. Gillespy should not be a major leaguer; Alexis is clueless, Adam

LaRouche looks like a statue at the plate, ever look at him good, stiff as a board?

You can go down the list everybody on the team a bunch of losers. It all point to

Robin Ventura gotta go. thanks, Douglas

[shysocks]

Hoo boy

[Kyyle23]

there isn't a single position player that doesn't need improved. I suppose you could

say that about every player, even Mickey Mantle, but these nine guys on the CWS

all just plain suck. Gillespy should not be a major leaguer; Alexis is clueless, Adam

LaRouche looks like a statue at the plate, ever look at him good, stiff as a board?

You can go down the list everybody on the team a bunch of losers. It all point to

Robin Ventura gotta go. thanks, Douglas

 

Well, will Ozzie be able to make Gillaspie a major leaguer, find a clue for Alexei, and make LaRoche as wiggly as a worm? How exactly does Ozzie make them all winners?

[knightni]

how's 'bout this>>> fire RV, hire Ozzie, Sox win the pennant!!!

thanks, douglas

No thanks, douglas

[Balta1701]

So here's one that drives me nuts yesterday.

 

When commenting on the defense, people will note that the White Sox simply don't have good defenders and nothing the manager or coaching staff can do will change that.

 

Here's an example of where this hits the coaching staff and organization. First inning yesterday, ground ball to the left side, Gillaspie has to move a good distance to get to the ball and he misses it. It wasn't an impossible play, it wasn't an easy play, but he was given an error on it. He's not a great defender so he might make that play some fraction of the time and miss that play some fraction of the time, maybe 50/50, 75/25, who knows. Even if he practiced it every single day there's so many little differences in every hop that he's still going to miss that one sometimes. Fine. He's not a great defender and that's not on the coaching staff.

 

Gillaspie then becomes an idiot. After missing the ball, he picks it up and rifles it as fast and as hard as he can in the direction of 1b without setting. Even if he made a perfect throw he wasn't going to get the runner. This was a completely stupid throw. There were probably 5 year olds in the stadium who have seen enough baseball to know that ball was ticketed for the dugout, and of course, the runner goes to 2nd on the play. Gillaspie gets the 2nd error on the play, runner scores a few batters later.

 

The first one? Fine, Gillaspie just physically could not make that play every time and the coaching staff can't change that. The 2nd part? How on Earth can a player not know to stick that ball in their pocket and take the error rather than making things worse?

 

That's what I mean when I say there's a difference between being weak defensively and what we see with this team: sloppy, stupid, poorly coached, and poorly prepared. We could be weak defensively, have weak defenders, guys who don't have good range, but we could at least be smart about it. Instead we have the guy who decides that he needs to be the hero and make an inhuman play and it ends up giving up a free run.

[Kyyle23]

So here's one that drives me nuts yesterday.

 

When commenting on the defense, people will note that the White Sox simply don't have good defenders and nothing the manager or coaching staff can do will change that.

 

Here's an example of where this hits the coaching staff and organization. First inning yesterday, ground ball to the left side, Gillaspie has to move a good distance to get to the ball and he misses it. It wasn't an impossible play, it wasn't an easy play, but he was given an error on it. He's not a great defender so he might make that play some fraction of the time and miss that play some fraction of the time, maybe 50/50, 75/25, who knows. Even if he practiced it every single day there's so many little differences in every hop that he's still going to miss that one sometimes. Fine. He's not a great defender and that's not on the coaching staff.

 

Gillaspie then becomes an idiot. After missing the ball, he picks it up and rifles it as fast and as hard as he can in the direction of 1b without setting. Even if he made a perfect throw he wasn't going to get the runner. This was a completely stupid throw. There were probably 5 year olds in the stadium who have seen enough baseball to know that ball was ticketed for the dugout, and of course, the runner goes to 2nd on the play. Gillaspie gets the 2nd error on the play, runner scores a few batters later.

 

The first one? Fine, Gillaspie just physically could not make that play every time and the coaching staff can't change that. The 2nd part? How on Earth can a player not know to stick that ball in their pocket and take the error rather than making things worse?

 

That's what I mean when I say there's a difference between being weak defensively and what we see with this team: sloppy, stupid, poorly coached, and poorly prepared. We could be weak defensively, have weak defenders, guys who don't have good range, but we could at least be smart about it. Instead we have the guy who decides that he needs to be the hero and make an inhuman play and it ends up giving up a free run.

 

So, this is 100 percent on Gillaspie for both muffing the ball and then throwing it away on a play that every person in the stadium knows he should have held on to. But at the same time its on the coaches for not coaching him correctly on a play he should have known since he was 5. Got it.

[Chisoxfn]

So here's one that drives me nuts yesterday.

 

When commenting on the defense, people will note that the White Sox simply don't have good defenders and nothing the manager or coaching staff can do will change that.

 

Here's an example of where this hits the coaching staff and organization. First inning yesterday, ground ball to the left side, Gillaspie has to move a good distance to get to the ball and he misses it. It wasn't an impossible play, it wasn't an easy play, but he was given an error on it. He's not a great defender so he might make that play some fraction of the time and miss that play some fraction of the time, maybe 50/50, 75/25, who knows. Even if he practiced it every single day there's so many little differences in every hop that he's still going to miss that one sometimes. Fine. He's not a great defender and that's not on the coaching staff.

 

Gillaspie then becomes an idiot. After missing the ball, he picks it up and rifles it as fast and as hard as he can in the direction of 1b without setting. Even if he made a perfect throw he wasn't going to get the runner. This was a completely stupid throw. There were probably 5 year olds in the stadium who have seen enough baseball to know that ball was ticketed for the dugout, and of course, the runner goes to 2nd on the play. Gillaspie gets the 2nd error on the play, runner scores a few batters later.

 

The first one? Fine, Gillaspie just physically could not make that play every time and the coaching staff can't change that. The 2nd part? How on Earth can a player not know to stick that ball in their pocket and take the error rather than making things worse?

 

That's what I mean when I say there's a difference between being weak defensively and what we see with this team: sloppy, stupid, poorly coached, and poorly prepared. We could be weak defensively, have weak defenders, guys who don't have good range, but we could at least be smart about it. Instead we have the guy who decides that he needs to be the hero and make an inhuman play and it ends up giving up a free run.

I think the 2nd part is also to an extent ingrained from years of playing baseball but I also think the culture of an organization and lockeroom (led in part by the mgr) can impact and reduce these occurrences and I agree with you the way the Sox have consistently made dumb baseball plays is why I fully support making changes and would fully support going to Gardy (but with that, the whole org would need to be on board with Gardy's methodologies carrying to the minor league levels, etc).

 

[chitownsportsfan]

It's called pressing and the entire team does it. RV seems absolutely clueless when it comes to getting his guys ready to play. Now, this is something controversial -- what does "ready to play" even mean anyways?

 

Well, we've seen it with 4 different rosters now so while I can't precisely say what it means I can very well see that RV seems to lack the leadership required to have his guys ready on a daily basis.