Red Sox looking for cost controlled pitchers

[SCCWS]

I know I probably sound like a broken record but I've been on this Sox-BoSox Quintana trade long before this thread. I've said Vazques, Marrero, Margot and Edwin Escobar is fair for both teams and I still think it makes sense. I think asking for Swihart will get you nowhere.

 

Not sure where you are getting your info. I saw an interview w Sean McAdam who has covered Red Sox for 30+years and Lou Merloni former player and now talk show host last week. Both said they feel Vazquez will be the catcher next year and Swihart will be traded. Now unless Vazquez has permanent arm problems, I would guess that is the rumor in the media circles. I still say Q for Swihart and Bradley Jr + 1 arm. White Sox may also need to include a bullpen piece.

 

[GreenSox]

. I still say Q for Swihart and Bradley Jr + 1 arm. White Sox may also need to include a bullpen piece.

That is Q for one real prospect. (Bradley is a non prospect at this point)

No.

Edited July 6, 2015 by GreenSox

[oldsox]

Is Bradley an upgrade over Eaton?

[GreenSox]

Is Bradley an upgrade over Eaton?

Defensively, without question.

Offensively, he's much worse based on his major league numbers. If you look at his minor league numbers, it's hard to say because they are inconsistent - but the projection off of his minor league numbers would probably be comparable to Eaton's 2014.

[southsider2k5]

Because Hamels makes like $100 million more than Quintana.

 

But, that said, I said I think Swihart is like the BEST case scenario. Like he's the best guy I can imagine Quintana bringing, I don't think it's likely he's included.

 

What kind of prospect package is $100 million worth?

[ChiSox59]

Generally speaking:

 

Betts is untouchable, you guys are treating him as merely a starting point for a deal.

 

Swihart would be a realistic prized centerpiece, you guys are treating him like he could be the second or third piece.

 

There's no way they'd give up both Margot and Devers, and probably only one of them if the centerpiece is a notch below Swihart. THey'd probably push hard to make on of those two THE centerpiece.

 

Let me be clear: I'm NOT advocating trading Quintana. The best case scenario, realistically, is probably Swihart, Kopech/Chavis, two solid arms you haven't heard of. I'm not saying it's good, I'm just trying to be realistic. We need to remember that a young, controllable, above average position player is more valuable than a similar pitcher, and positional prospects are valued extremely highly right now.

 

If that's the return, Q won't be traded.

[Eminor3rd]

If that's the return, Q won't be traded.

 

I agree and I hope he won't.

[GreenSox]

If that's the return, Q won't be traded.

To the Red Sox, anyway, which is a okay by me.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Because Hamels makes like $100 million more than Quintana.

 

But, that said, I said I think Swihart is like the BEST case scenario. Like he's the best guy I can imagine Quintana bringing, I don't think it's likely he's included.

 

You have quite the poor imagination then. I think you're using your analytical mind and none of your imagination if that's all you can "imagine" . Youth, ability , contract, sustained success, all on Q's side but no hype and one hyped up lousy hit or miss prospect is all you can see in a trade for him ? Yea I might overvalue our players but c'mon now you can do better than that .

[Eminor3rd]

Well how do you expect the Sox to fill some of their positional black holes if they don't move Quintana?

 

Trade Samardzija, try to trade some relievers, make some shrewd FA signings, and work hard to develop players internally. It isn't ideal, but that's the same set of solutions we'd have to use to replace Quintana, too.

 

As I said before -- in my mind, trading Quintana opens up as big a hole as it replaces. If we're worried about how much money the Sox would need to fill those positional holes in FA, then we have to realize that filling that hole in the rotation is just as expensive. Quintana's contract is an asset even if it isn't at the position of most need, because it allows for us to allocate financial resources elsewhere.

[Eminor3rd]

You have quite the poor imagination then. I think you're using your analytical mind and none of your imagination if that's all you can "imagine" . Youth, ability , contract, sustained success, all on Q's side but no hype and one hyped up lousy hit or miss prospect is all you can see in a trade for him ? Yea I might overvalue our players but c'mon now you can do better than that .

 

Ok I can do better.

 

Best return I can imagine for Quintana is Mookie Betts, Mookie Wilson, Kate Upton, 1996 Brady Anderson, and the Thunder God, Thor. I imagine we can send back John Danks' contract but also keep John Danks for depth. We'll also receive cash considerations and a bunch of IHOP gift cards to be distributed to Soxtalk posters in accordance to who has posted the fewest times complaining about Robin Ventura.

[Balta1701]

Ok I can do better.

 

Best return I can imagine for Quintana is Mookie Betts, Mookie Wilson, Kate Upton, 1996 Brady Anderson, and the Thunder God, Thor. I imagine we can send back John Danks' contract but also keep John Danks for depth. We'll also receive cash considerations and a bunch of IHOP gift cards to be distributed to Soxtalk posters in accordance to who has posted the fewest times complaining about Robin Ventura.

You get Thor but no Mjolnir? I'm not doing the deal without that.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Ok I can do better.

 

Best return I can imagine for Quintana is Mookie Betts, Mookie Wilson, Kate Upton, 1996 Brady Anderson, and the Thunder God, Thor. I imagine we can send back John Danks' contract but also keep John Danks for depth. We'll also receive cash considerations and a bunch of IHOP gift cards to be distributed to Soxtalk posters in accordance to who has posted the fewest times complaining about Robin Ventura.

 

Much better but where's Mookie Blaylock ?

Edited July 6, 2015 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Balta1701]

I think trading Quintana for a gaggle of players is the best way to replenish our weakness. Then replace Quintana's spot in the rotation with one of the options at SP.

IMO - this can work (if you get the right deal for Quintana) but I don't think it makes any sense to spend FA money on a starting pitcher...or really anyone this offseason if you do that. You're not likely to get guys who will step in and contribute on opening day next year as all stars for Quintana and we certainly don't have enough pieces to fill in any other holes from our org otherwise next year...so just play the guys we have. Fulmer and Johnson and Beck can cover 2 rotation slots, maybe even with a Montas sighting, for a team that traded away a high value starting pitcher.

[LDF]

IMO - this can work (if you get the right deal for Quintana) but I don't think it makes any sense to spend FA money on a starting pitcher...or really anyone this offseason if you do that. You're not likely to get guys who will step in and contribute on opening day next year as all stars for Quintana and we certainly don't have enough pieces to fill in any other holes from our org otherwise next year...so just play the guys we have. Fulmer and Johnson and Beck can cover 2 rotation slots, maybe even with a Montas sighting, for a team that traded away a high value starting pitcher.

 

i kinda of disagree. fix the holes with the trades of shark and Q. bring in an assortment of hitters and 1 very good sp. then invest in a FA-sp in the offseason.

 

that price of the fa-sp will be a 2nd rounder. the first being protected.

[LDF]

I think we can replace Quintana (maybe not in terms of exact of value) much easier than any of the positional holes. This FA class is robust with SP and offers nothing in terms of positional players unless you want to give 200 M to either Upton or Heyward. Weiters, Gordon and Ian Desmond are the next tier.

 

Catchers:

Alex Avila (29)

Chris Iannetta (33)

John Jaso (32)

George Kottaras (32)

Jose Molina (41)

Dioner Navarro (32)

Brayan Pena (34)

A.J. Pierzynski (39)

Matt Wieters (30)

 

Third Base:

Joaquin Arias (31)

Mike Aviles (35)

Gordon Beckham (29)

Willie Bloomquist (38)

Kevin Frandsen (34)

David Freese (33)

Jonathan Herrera (31)

Maicer Izturis (35) – $3MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Don Kelly (36)

Jeff Keppinger (36)

Casey McGehee (32)

Aramis Ramirez (38)

Sean Rodriguez (31)

Juan Uribe (37)

 

Shortstop:

Joaquin Arias (31)

Mike Aviles (35)

Willie Bloomquist (38)

Asdrubal Cabrera (30)

Ian Desmond (30)

Stephen Drew (33)

Alcides Escobar (29) – $5.25MM club option with a $500K buyout

Maicer Izturis (35) – $3MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Cliff Pennington (32)

Alexei Ramirez (34) – $10MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Sean Rodriguez (31)

Jimmy Rollins (37)

Brendan Ryan (34) – $1MM player option

 

Do any of these players make a lot of sense for the Sox? I don't see it. Maybe Ben Zobrist but I am sure he has plenty of team who will be interested in his services. The Sox have C, 2B, SS, 3B as tremendous holes. I assume they'll go with some combo of Micah and Sanchez at 2B. They're probably stuck with one of Flowers or Alexei at C/SS. I don't see any enticing free agents at 3B or C/SS unless you want to take a significant risk on Wieters. I think trading Quintana for a gaggle of players is the best way to replenish our weakness. Then replace Quintana's spot in the rotation with one of the options at SP.

 

EDIT: Which shrewd FA signings do you see in the list? I am with you on that philosophy, not that the Sox have been able to convert on such a strategy, but I don't see any of these types of options in this class.

 

and as you are stating, there will players who would not be given a QO, so those players may provide a stop-gap player until a prospects is ready to replace him.

 

~~~ edit, the one problem i see is if that player wants a multi yr contract in around 3-4 yrs .

Edited July 6, 2015 by LDF

[Harry Chappas]

Much better but where's Mookie Blaylock ?

 

On the road with Pearl Jam

[Eminor3rd]

I think we can replace Quintana (maybe not in terms of exact of value) much easier than any of the positional holes. This FA class is robust with SP and offers nothing in terms of positional players unless you want to give 200 M to either Upton or Heyward. Weiters, Gordon and Ian Desmond are the next tier.

 

Catchers:

Alex Avila (29)

Chris Iannetta (33)

John Jaso (32)

George Kottaras (32)

Jose Molina (41)

Dioner Navarro (32)

Brayan Pena (34)

A.J. Pierzynski (39)

Matt Wieters (30)

 

Third Base:

Joaquin Arias (31)

Mike Aviles (35)

Gordon Beckham (29)

Willie Bloomquist (38)

Kevin Frandsen (34)

David Freese (33)

Jonathan Herrera (31)

Maicer Izturis (35) – $3MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Don Kelly (36)

Jeff Keppinger (36)

Casey McGehee (32)

Aramis Ramirez (38)

Sean Rodriguez (31)

Juan Uribe (37)

 

Shortstop:

Joaquin Arias (31)

Mike Aviles (35)

Willie Bloomquist (38)

Asdrubal Cabrera (30)

Ian Desmond (30)

Stephen Drew (33)

Alcides Escobar (29) – $5.25MM club option with a $500K buyout

Maicer Izturis (35) – $3MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Cliff Pennington (32)

Alexei Ramirez (34) – $10MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Sean Rodriguez (31)

Jimmy Rollins (37)

Brendan Ryan (34) – $1MM player option

 

Do any of these players make a lot of sense for the Sox? I don't see it. Maybe Ben Zobrist but I am sure he has plenty of team who will be interested in his services. The Sox have C, 2B, SS, 3B as tremendous holes. I assume they'll go with some combo of Micah and Sanchez at 2B. They're probably stuck with one of Flowers or Alexei at C/SS. I don't see any enticing free agents at 3B or C/SS unless you want to take a significant risk on Wieters. I think trading Quintana for a gaggle of players is the best way to replenish our weakness. Then replace Quintana's spot in the rotation with one of the options at SP.

 

EDIT: Which shrewd FA signings do you see in the list? I am with you on that philosophy, not that the Sox have been able to convert on such a strategy, but I don't see any of these types of options in this class.

 

Avila, Ianetta, Weiters, and Jaso would all be substantial catching upgrades. Two are bad defensively, but they can all hit -- and Flowers is bad at both. Ramirez and Uribe would be great short-term signings to upgrade third. I'm assuming we'll pick up Alexei's option and that he'll bounce back to some degree.

 

I think we need at least one FA even WITH Quintana. Could we get two? Probably. But, in general, FA money is inefficient money whereas sub-market extension money is efficient money. Exchanging one for the other is going to result in some sort of loss.

 

Also, I'll flip the availability thing around: If you trade Quintana, who is available to fill those same holes?

[GreenSox]

Avila, Ianetta, Weiters, and Jaso would all be substantial catching upgrades. Two are bad defensively, but they can all hit -- and Flowers is bad at both. Ramirez and Uribe would be great short-term signings to upgrade third. I'm assuming we'll pick up Alexei's option and that he'll bounce back to some degree.

 

I think we need at least one FA even WITH Quintana. Could we get two? Probably. But, in general, FA money is inefficient money whereas sub-market extension money is efficient money. Exchanging one for the other is going to result in some sort of loss.

 

Also, I'll flip the availability thing around: If you trade Quintana, who is available to fill those same holes?

$10 mill for Alexei?

Sox should have done a short term deal for LF this year.

I'd like to see the Sox try Kottras this year, if they're looking for a C who can't defend but can hit. Ianetta is hitting worse than Flowers this year. he's of that age. In general, with such lack of productivity at multiple positions, surprised the Sox haven't tried some in-house alternatives more.

Move Laroche out. He's movable, he's decent, but the Sox need more OF and some of them can play DH/1B in rotation I would think.

Edited July 6, 2015 by GreenSox

[LDF]

Jaso doesn't catch anymore. Weiters should get a 9 digit contract. Avila might be a decent option. Ianetta has been good for LAA but has a sub .600 OPS this year. Ramirez is retiring but I have posted about Uribe being a good option for us the past few weeks.

 

The SP market is flush. I suggested buying low on Latos but everyone is starting to pick up on his velocity action.

 

Brett Anderson (28)

Brandon Beachy (29) – club option

Erik Bedard (36)

Chad Billingsley (31)

Clay Buchholz (31) – $13MM club option with a $245K buyout

Mark Buehrle (37)

A.J. Burnett (39)

Trevor Cahill (28) – $13MM club option with a $300K buyout

Chris Capuano (37)

Jhoulys Chacin (28)

Wei-Yin Chen (30)

Bartolo Colon (43)

Johnny Cueto (30)

Ross Detwiler (30)

R.A. Dickey (41) – $12MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Marco Estrada (32)

Doug Fister (32)

Gavin Floyd (33)

Yovani Gallardo (30)

Jaime Garcia (29) – $11.5MM club option with a $500K buyout

Zack Greinke (32) – can opt out of remaining three years/$71MM

Jeremy Guthrie (37) – $10MM mutual option with a $3.2MM buyout

J.A. Happ (33)

Aaron Harang (38)

Dan Haren (35)

Tim Hudson (40)

Hisashi Iwakuma (35)

Scott Kazmir (32)

Kyle Kendrick (31)

Ian Kennedy (31)

John Lackey (37)

Mat Latos (28)

Mike Leake (28)

Cliff Lee (37) – $27.5MM club/vesting option with a $12.5MM buyout

Tim Lincecum (32)

Kyle Lohse (37)

Corey Luebke (31) – $7.5MM club option with a $1.75MM buyout

Justin Masterson (31)

Brandon Morrow (31)

Bud Norris (31)

Mike Pelfrey (32)

David Price (30)

Ricky Romero (31) – $13.1MM club option with a $600K buyout

Jeff Samardzija (31)

Alfredo Simon (35)

Ryan Vogelsong (38)

Jerome Williams (34)

Chris Young (37)

Jordan Zimmermann (30)

 

There is premium options, buy lows, tested vets, etc. Really just a multitude of options. I am not suggesting all of the bolded guys, but they're all going to be sought after by some teams.

 

MB may be willing to come back for a 1 yr, in addition i Tor may not give him a QO.

[SCCWS]

That is Q for one real prospect. (Bradley is a non prospect at this point)

No.

 

We disagree. Any player who is a career .300 hitter in the minors and is an elite CF is still a prospect. If the Sox can get a catcher and a CF for Q I would do it and gamble that Bradley will be a . 250ish CF w speed and some pop. He has had an outstanding SO/BB ratio in AAA as well so you gamble that he can hit enough while being an elite CF. Unforunately if Bradley hits the 2nd half of season the Red Sox won't make that trade. I think White Sox need to trade Q in offseason where there will be more bidders.

 

Bogaerts had similiar numbers to Bradley in AAA and he hit .240 in Bosotn last year. But he is another outstanding defensive player who they continued to play. This year he is a .300 hitter. Maybe Bradley needs the chance to be an everyday player instead of a platoon.

Edited July 7, 2015 by SCCWS

[LDF]

We disagree. Any player who is a career .300 hitter in the minors and is an elite CF is still a prospect. If the Sox can get a catcher and a CF for Q I would do it and gamble that Bradley will be a . 250ish CF w speed and some pop. He has had an outstanding SO/BB ratio in AAA as well so you gamble that he can hit enough while being an elite CF. Unforunately if Bradley hits the 2nd half of season the Red Sox won't make that trade. I think White Sox need to trade Q in offseason where there will be more bidders.

 

Bogaerts had similiar numbers to Bradley in AAA and he hit .240 in Bosotn last year. But he is another outstanding defensive player who they continued to play. This year he is a .300 hitter. Maybe Bradley needs the chance to be an everyday player instead of a platoon.

 

i see what you are saying, but really good prospects in the minors the 2 or those kind of prospects, still does not equate to a even straight up trade for Q. now if someone needs to comparatively example, it would be Q trading for a Kris Bryant - cubs and Soler - cubs. on this rtn, sure, in a heartbeat. i will do the trade.

 

but it the value is not like that rtn, forget about it.