For Those Who Question the Effort or Desire of the Players

[Dick Allen]

The margin between this team's offense and league average is not tiny. Are you blaming Ventura for the baseball players' hitting?

 

Are you blaming Ventura for rostering the following subpar (to awful) defenders:

 

Micah Johnson

Conor Gillaspie

Avi Garcia

Jose Abreu

Melky Cabrera

That has been my point all along. if it is Robin's fault, no one should complain about the players. If you think KW put together a horrible team, you can't blame RV for the poor record. If you have to blame KW, RH, RV,JR, you can't blame them all. If it is Robin's managing that is keeping this team from contention, then the other guys have done their job. If KW has taken over and set the Sox back until the next decade, then you can't blame RV when the Sox lose.

 

Good managers don't win with bad players. Bad GMs don't put together teams that should win but don't because of the manager.

[Balta1701]

That has been my point all along. if it is Robin's fault, no one should complain about the players. If you think KW put together a horrible team, you can't blame RV for the poor record. If you have to blame KW, RH, RV,JR, you can't blame them all. If it is Robin's managing that is keeping this team from contention, then the other guys have done their job. If KW has taken over and set the Sox back until the next decade, then you can't blame RV when the Sox lose.

 

Good managers don't win with bad players. Bad GMs don't put together teams that should win but don't because of the manager.

I actually agree with this.

 

But since we're so terrible and have been rotten for so long, I say we should just remove both parts just to be safe. After all, it's also possible that we're a poor team that is being managed poorly and both sides contribute.

[iamshack]

I'm not defending him, I'm just frustrated that everyone has concluded that he is the issue and that firing him will solve the team's problems. I'm not saying he's good, I'm just saying I don't think he matters. or at least there's no evidence to suggest he's causing this team to play poorly.

So you're basically saying you cannot quantify the effect of the manager on the team, and so thus you don't care whether you have a manager you deem to be good or bad? You will ignore any circumstantial evidence solely because you cannot directly link it to manager. Therefore the correct conclusion is just to do nothing.

 

If a manager does have an effect on the play of the ball club, is it safe to say that we cannot identify any good effects he has on the club, based on their play?

 

Is that not enough?

 

 

[iamshack]

That has been my point all along. if it is Robin's fault, no one should complain about the players. If you think KW put together a horrible team, you can't blame RV for the poor record. If you have to blame KW, RH, RV,JR, you can't blame them all. If it is Robin's managing that is keeping this team from contention, then the other guys have done their job. If KW has taken over and set the Sox back until the next decade, then you can't blame RV when the Sox lose.

 

Good managers don't win with bad players. Bad GMs don't put together teams that should win but don't because of the manager.

So you can't fire the manager unless you've got a playoff caliber team that is not making the playoffs because of the manager?

 

I disagree wholeheartedly.

[LDF]

That has been my point all along. if it is Robin's fault, no one should complain about the players. If you think KW put together a horrible team, you can't blame RV for the poor record. If you have to blame KW, RH, RV,JR, you can't blame them all. If it is Robin's managing that is keeping this team from contention, then the other guys have done their job. If KW has taken over and set the Sox back until the next decade, then you can't blame RV when the Sox lose.

 

Good managers don't win with bad players. Bad GMs don't put together teams that should win but don't because of the manager.

 

guilt by association.

 

there were examples of bad managing that has been pointed out on this site. but by all accounts, nothing positive will come from the sox FO.

[greg775]

While I never want to see Ozzie back as a coach or manager here, I would love to see a personality LIKE Ozzie's in the lockerroom to keep things loose.

Southsider, you whiffed on this post after a series of good ones. There are no "personalities" in the dugout. Piniella and Ozzie are gone. They are all cliche machines scared to death of offending anyone in this PC world. Ozzie was unique; there are no personlities LIKE Ozzie's around. Clint Hurdle might be close. These managers are scared of the PC police and just trying to survive day by day without offending anybody or getting fired.

[Vance Law]

So you're basically saying you cannot quantify the effect of the manager on the team, and so thus you don't care whether you have a manager you deem to be good or bad? You will ignore any circumstantial evidence solely because you cannot directly link it to manager. Therefore the correct conclusion is just to do nothing.

 

If a manager does have an effect on the play of the ball club, is it safe to say that we cannot identify any good effects he has on the club, based on their play?

 

Is that not enough?

 

With the team angling for historically bad team WAR for position players is it not a minor miracle that the team is just 7 under .500? Is the fact that Robin has the team outperforming it's pythagorean expected wins by 6 not circumstantial evidence of his excellent managing?

Edited July 9, 2015 by Vance Law

[southsider2k5]

Southsider, you whiffed on this post after a series of good ones. There are no "personalities" in the dugout. Piniella and Ozzie are gone. They are all cliche machines scared to death of offending anyone in this PC world. Ozzie was unique; there are no personlities LIKE Ozzie's around. Clint Hurdle might be close. These managers are scared of the PC police and just trying to survive day by day without offending anybody or getting fired.

 

It isn't about offending someone. It is about quitting on the organization. f*** Ozzie. Let him enjoy his money, and find someone else to quit on. I have quit on him too.

[iamshack]

With the team angling for historically bad team WAR for position players is it not a minor miracle that the team is just 7 under .500? Is not the fact that Robin has the team outperforming it's pythagorean expected wins by 6 not circumstantial evidence of his excellent managing?

Not if you blame the historically bad team WAR for position players on the manager.

 

And let's be clear here, with this sample size, none of those metrics mean much of anything.

 

With the way Chris/Q/Shark have been pitching recently, that is the reason we're only 7 under.

[ILMOU]

That has been my point all along. if it is Robin's fault, no one should complain about the players. If you think KW put together a horrible team, you can't blame RV for the poor record. If you have to blame KW, RH, RV,JR, you can't blame them all. If it is Robin's managing that is keeping this team from contention, then the other guys have done their job. If KW has taken over and set the Sox back until the next decade, then you can't blame RV when the Sox lose.

 

Good managers don't win with bad players. Bad GMs don't put together teams that should win but don't because of the manager.

I agree with this, too, generally. But, these aren't all-or-nothing propositions.

 

Of course Robin doesn't deserve all the blame, but I believe it's absurd to say that he deserves none of it. And I think RH (not KW) did put together a very flawed team, but one that should perform much better than it has. Exclusion or inclusion of the blame for one of the underperformers doesn't preclude blame of any of the others. PLENTY of blame to go around. RV is a PART of the problem, imo, and we're not going to agree anyway, so I'm done here.

 

But if he's in our dugout in 2016, it will be the greatest example of our FO's hubris and lack of accountability. Just own that you eff'ed up and move on already.

 

Edited July 9, 2015 by Stan Bahnsen

[Vance Law]

But if he's in our dugout in 2016, it will be the greatest example of our FO's hubris and lack of accountability. Just own that you eff'ed up and move on already.

 

I would say this and substitute 'he's' with 'players'.

[Balta1701]

But if he's in our dugout in 2016, it will be the greatest example of our FO's hubris and lack of accountability. Just own that you eff'ed up and move on already.

The real question is whether they'll give him another contract extension.

[Vance Law]

Not if you blame the historically bad team WAR for position players on the manager.

 

So you blame Ventura for Alexei Ramirez? Ventura was good at making Ramirez be good last year and Ventura is bad at making Ramirez be good this year? Ventura's excellent at making Sanchez be a very good second baseman but he's bad at making Sanchez be a hitter? Ventura stunk at managering Melky for a month and a half but Ventura's been on fire at managering Melky for the past month?

[jamesdiego]

When there is a collective funk with multiple players, then you have to be open to the possibility that Robin just cannot light a fire under the players. Whether it is getting them loose and have fun, or whatever. He just hasn't done it. The players are to blame as well, of course. And the front office. They most definitely of at least tried to right the ship by firing Ventura. It wouldn't of hurt, but they have no balls.

 

To the OP, thanks for sharing that about the players putting in the extra work. That was nice to hear. Before I would just call the players "f****** bums". But from now on I will call them "f****** bums" with a proud heart.