SoxNet: Biggest "What Ifs" in White Sox History

[NorthSideSox72]

One of the new writers on SoxNet is Mark Liptak, who has been writing on the White Sox for decades and is a pretty big name. He's got his first SoxNet piece up - Part 1 of a three part series on What Ifs over the history of the team.

 

Here is this first chapter. Next chapter will take us from the 60s to Sportsvision.

 

You should all consider subscribing to SoxNet too!

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

One of the new writers on SoxNet is Mark Liptak, who has been writing on the White Sox for decades and is a pretty big name. He's got his first SoxNet piece up - Part 1 of a three part series on What Ifs over the history of the team.

 

Here is this first chapter. Next chapter will take us from the 60s to Sportsvision.

 

You should all consider subscribing to SoxNet too!

 

Interesting article. I had read somewhere the Sox also had 2 shots at getting Babe Ruth , one before he became a Red Sox and the other getting him after the Red Sox decided to get rid of him.. Maybe Liptak will also write about that "what if " .

 

Those two shots : http://southsideshowdown.com/2012/09/21/ba...cago-white-sox/ and http://whitesoxcards.blogspot.com/2009/07/...-white-sox.html

Edited July 17, 2015 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Yeah I saw that article earlier this year. The White Sox turned down an offer to purchase him.

 

Another offer Dunn received may have changed baseball history had it progressed. In reporting the sale to the Boston Red Sox of Ruth, Ernie Shore, and Ben Egan, the Allentown Democrat [Allentown, PA] noted July 11, 1914 that the Chicago White Sox had offered $18,000 for Ruth alone.

 

I tweeted a little while ago about finding this article, and my friend and editor Rich Mueller, whose website Sports Collector Daily I contribute to, showed me a piece he wrote in 2012. In uncovering correspondence from White Sox scout George Earl Mills, Mueller found that team owner Charlie Comiskey could have had Ruth and five other players for $18,000, but turned it down thinking the price too high.

[WBWSF]

I have a What If that rarely gets mentioned. Charley Finley wanted to buy the White Sox after the 1958 season. The Comiskey family sold the team to Veeck instead. If Finley would of bought the team just think how the White Sox franchise would of been. Finley started building his Oakland A's championship teams in the mid 1960's. He signed Rudi, Jackson, Hunter and a number of other players. Those World Champion teams from 72-74 could of been on the Southside of Chicago instead of Oakland. Finley was a White Sox fan who loved Chicago. I don't see how the franchise was better off under Veeck than what it would of been under Finley. With the teams Finley had during the late 60's and 70's the White Sox would of had a dynasty here on the great Southside of Chicago. I had no use of Veeck. He traded off our young talent after the 59 season and when he bought the White Sox in 1976, he had 4 of the worse teams here in the history of the franchise. If Finley would of bought the White Sox in 1959 the franchise would of been better off.

[Chisoxfn]

Interesting article and great to have someone like Lip a part of the new SoxNet. Quite a few interesting stories. Would be interesting in revisionist history if the Sox began that dominant. Would it changed who we became in the future (building off of success like that gives a huge advantage). That said, the Bears were once the best and when you look at the past 30 years, we aren't in the top half of franchises, imo.

 

The thing that stands out to me is how important it is to have good ownership who supports good executive talent. It is why I've long said the smart investments are on your executive management team. Don't be cheap. Put the best president / GM out their and get the best scouts around. Invest in scouting and player development and be patient but also utilize free agency and potential payroll advantages to your advantage. Patience can be dangerous but you have to be diligent and strong minded. Understand who you are building around and put a proverbial fence around those people as it seems like some of the best teams understand the guys that "can" afford to deal vs. the guys they don't want to.

 

I have total envy over what the Cubs and Dodgers are doing. Yes, some of it has to do with significant payroll resources and I even think some of it has to do with a sense of job security where they know they will be granted the time to do what it takes to do things right, etc. And some of you may call me crazy for throwing Dodgers and their looney tune payroll out their, but if you look at what they are doing (/have done) on the player development side, it is absurd. I also think if I were the Sox and wanted to do something aggressive, the first guy I would call would be Ned Coletti. He was replaced this off-season but really did an exceptional job bridging the gap between McCourt and others and also had plenty of success in San Francisco as well (his previous destination).

 

Hahn does do a lot of things I like, but I also know that Kenny is still heavily involved and while I like Kenny for what he did and his aggression was nice, I want to see a sustained run of greatness and he's had a pretty large sample size of experience to prove that while he is better then most, he isn't going to drive a sustained run of greatness. Hard to say what Hahn can / can't do. He's clearly reinvested in the front office and we've seen more hits in our draft recently (of course how does it really grade out, hard to say) but I think the idea of going to an outside guy who has a history of doing things right and truly changing the culture of the organization would be huge. We've seen what has happened under Reinsdorf and while we have largely been relevant (plenty of .500 or above season's), we have failed to have any sustained post-season runs (i.e., making playoffs in 5 of 7 years type of runs) and we have largely had significant continuity in the organization (Schueler to Kenny to Hahn) were all pretty smooth hand offs (other then pissing off Dan Evans when KW got the job).

 

When you compare the Bulls and the Sox, it is kind of amazing the difference in terms of overall success. Yes, one franchise did have Michael Jordan, but the Bulls have continuously made moves that winning and proud organizations do. They go after the biggest and the best (have failed more often then not, but they do it) and they don't settle with mediocrity (see removing Thibs). Kenny clearly was never afraid and I always commended him for that but I think after the runs we've had, we either need to give Rick more power or bring in a hired gun to help turn this thing around (by the way, I still think the ship is pointed in the right direction, but I want to see better long-term vision).

[Lip Man 1]

Just want to thank everyone for the kind words. Hope you enjoy the article and the ones I'll be doing in the future.

 

Thanks again!

[NorthSideSox72]

Just want to thank everyone for the kind words. Hope you enjoy the article and the ones I'll be doing in the future.

 

Thanks again!

Welcome aboard the message board ship, Lip!

 

[Chisoxfn]

Lip...take note. If the Sox don't pull the trigger on Puig (and we find out we turned down the offer), he could be a guy you will be writing about in a version of this 15-20 years from now.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/yasiel-puigs-historic-start/

[Lip Man 1]

Welcome aboard the message board ship, Lip!

 

Thank you!

[Lip Man 1]

I have a What If that rarely gets mentioned. Charley Finley wanted to buy the White Sox after the 1958 season. The Comiskey family sold the team to Veeck instead. If Finley would of bought the team just think how the White Sox franchise would of been. Finley started building his Oakland A's championship teams in the mid 1960's. He signed Rudi, Jackson, Hunter and a number of other players. Those World Champion teams from 72-74 could of been on the Southside of Chicago instead of Oakland. Finley was a White Sox fan who loved Chicago. I don't see how the franchise was better off under Veeck than what it would of been under Finley. With the teams Finley had during the late 60's and 70's the White Sox would of had a dynasty here on the great Southside of Chicago. I had no use of Veeck. He traded off our young talent after the 59 season and when he bought the White Sox in 1976, he had 4 of the worse teams here in the history of the franchise. If Finley would of bought the White Sox in 1959 the franchise would of been better off.

 

Finley is an interesting case. He's from LaPorte, Indiana and for many years his insurance business was headquartered in Chicago.

 

In 1959 he offered Grace Comiskey 500,000 for the Sox which was MAJOR money in those days and that made her think twice about what she wanted to do.

 

The problem though was that Bill Veeck had paid for a "first option" right to purchase the Sox. Grace because of that legally couldn't sell to Finley since Veeck had the right of basically first refusal. It wound up going to court where Judge Robert Dunne ruled in favor of Veeck. That's how he got 54% of the team and controlling interest from Grace who refused to sell her shares to Chuck (which would have put the Sox under single ownership since he had the other shares. That would have realized tax breaks for the club).

 

Finley again almost got the Sox in 1975. Had John Allyn sold to Seattle and the team moved there, numerous reports at the time said MLB would have relocated the A's to Chicago. MLB actually wanted the Sox to move since if Seattle got a team back the city and King County would have dropped their lawsuits over the Pilots being moved after one season.

 

Personally I think the bigger "what if?" was what would have happened to the Sox had Edward DeBartolo been allowed to buy the team from Veeck. That's who Bill had a deal with until MLB refused to approve it. Reinsdorf and Einhorn weren't Bill's first choice and he always felt they were forced on him.

 

DeBartolo wound up buying the 49'ers where they won four Super Bowls.

 

Mark

Edited July 18, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[Lip Man 1]

Interesting article and great to have someone like Lip a part of the new SoxNet. Quite a few interesting stories. Would be interesting in revisionist history if the Sox began that dominant. Would it changed who we became in the future (building off of success like that gives a huge advantage). That said, the Bears were once the best and when you look at the past 30 years, we aren't in the top half of franchises, imo.

 

The thing that stands out to me is how important it is to have good ownership who supports good executive talent. It is why I've long said the smart investments are on your executive management team. Don't be cheap. Put the best president / GM out their and get the best scouts around. Invest in scouting and player development and be patient but also utilize free agency and potential payroll advantages to your advantage. Patience can be dangerous but you have to be diligent and strong minded. Understand who you are building around and put a proverbial fence around those people as it seems like some of the best teams understand the guys that "can" afford to deal vs. the guys they don't want to.

 

I have total envy over what the Cubs and Dodgers are doing. Yes, some of it has to do with significant payroll resources and I even think some of it has to do with a sense of job security where they know they will be granted the time to do what it takes to do things right, etc. And some of you may call me crazy for throwing Dodgers and their looney tune payroll out their, but if you look at what they are doing (/have done) on the player development side, it is absurd. I also think if I were the Sox and wanted to do something aggressive, the first guy I would call would be Ned Coletti. He was replaced this off-season but really did an exceptional job bridging the gap between McCourt and others and also had plenty of success in San Francisco as well (his previous destination).

 

Hahn does do a lot of things I like, but I also know that Kenny is still heavily involved and while I like Kenny for what he did and his aggression was nice, I want to see a sustained run of greatness and he's had a pretty large sample size of experience to prove that while he is better then most, he isn't going to drive a sustained run of greatness. Hard to say what Hahn can / can't do. He's clearly reinvested in the front office and we've seen more hits in our draft recently (of course how does it really grade out, hard to say) but I think the idea of going to an outside guy who has a history of doing things right and truly changing the culture of the organization would be huge. We've seen what has happened under Reinsdorf and while we have largely been relevant (plenty of .500 or above season's), we have failed to have any sustained post-season runs (i.e., making playoffs in 5 of 7 years type of runs) and we have largely had significant continuity in the organization (Schueler to Kenny to Hahn) were all pretty smooth hand offs (other then pissing off Dan Evans when KW got the job).

 

When you compare the Bulls and the Sox, it is kind of amazing the difference in terms of overall success. Yes, one franchise did have Michael Jordan, but the Bulls have continuously made moves that winning and proud organizations do. They go after the biggest and the best (have failed more often then not, but they do it) and they don't settle with mediocrity (see removing Thibs). Kenny clearly was never afraid and I always commended him for that but I think after the runs we've had, we either need to give Rick more power or bring in a hired gun to help turn this thing around (by the way, I still think the ship is pointed in the right direction, but I want to see better long-term vision).

 

My own personal opinion is that overall the organization has become stale, set in their ways. They need individuals from outside the organization, from consistently winning franchises that can look at the problems and issues with a fresh set of eyes and a fresh set of ideas.

 

That's not to say Rick has done a bad job, he hasn't... but it's clear Kenny is still really running the show and over the past decade his "go for broke" / football attitude has done long term damage to the operation.

 

Mark

[OmarComing25]

Welcome to the board Lip! I've always enjoyed your posts on WSI, glad to see you've joined the community here as well. Good stuff as always.

[GreenSox]

Great work as always, Lip!

[2nd_city_saint787]

Great work and welcome aboard....I must ask, are you of any relation to Thomas?

[Lip Man 1]

Great work and welcome aboard....I must ask, are you of any relation to Thomas?

 

Don't know of any Thomas...sorry. Thanks for the nice words!

 

Appreciate it.

 

Mark

 

[kitekrazy]

Welcome to the board Lip! I've always enjoyed your posts on WSI, glad to see you've joined the community here as well. Good stuff as always.

 

Same here!!!!!

 

[BigEdWalsh]

Welcome to the board Lip! I've always enjoyed your posts on WSI, glad to see you've joined the community here as well. Good stuff as always.

Me too. Good to see you posting here, Lip!

[reiks12]

Drafting Jared Mitchell ahead of Mike Trout

[Lip Man 1]

Drafting Jared Mitchell ahead of Mike Trout

 

There were 21 or 22 other teams that made the same mistake. Certainly not just on the Sox for that one.

 

Mark

 

[Thad Bosley]

Personally I think the bigger "what if?" was what would have happened to the Sox had Edward DeBartolo been allowed to buy the team from Veeck. That's who Bill had a deal with until MLB refused to approve it. Reinsdorf and Einhorn weren't Bill's first choice and he always felt they were forced on him.

 

DeBartolo wound up buying the 49'ers where they won four Super Bowls.

 

Mark

A HUGE "what if?" for this franchise. If not for the petty politics of the MLB owners back then who simply didn't want Mr. DeBartolo to be a member in their little club, we would have actually had the kind of owner these past 35 years worthy of a large market team. The kind of owner who wouldn't subject his fan base to the "Can't spend a dollar when you only have fifty cents" mentality. He had the resources to run this organization the way a large market team ought to be run, and based on his results with the 49ers, I think it's pretty certain the results of the past 35 years would have been far greater than those under the Reinsdorf ownership group. They certainly couldn't have been much worse.

[Lip Man 1]

Part II of the series is now up at Chicago Now / Sox Net for those who are interested. We look at how close the Sox came to getting some of the biggest power hitters of the 1960's, who was offered and why they didn't succeed and then look at the White Sox TV decisions with moving to WFLD in 1968 and SportsVision.

 

Hope you enjoy reading it.

 

Mark

Edited July 28, 2015 by Lip Man 1