Chisoxfn Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Thought it might be beneficial to have a thread talking about some potential catching prospetcs, given it might be a position that Hahn targets. I would point out that in terms of priority, I'd put catcher behind 3B, SS, and to be frank, a corner outfield spot (unfortunately, that corner outfield spot can only be opened up by moving a DH or one of our other outfielders). I would point out that if a team were interested in an outfielder and had a AAA catcher that we thought could develop into a top 10 catcher I would make that trade. One name that could be out their is Austin Barnes of the Dodgers. Dodgers just called him up as they put AJ Ellis (their current backup) on the DL. Dodgers don't have to move him (as Ellis is 34) but Grandal clearly is lodged in his path (unless Dodgers are willing to move Grandal for pitching). Sox have some parts that match up and I'll be frank, I'd be on board with a deal involving one of our pitchers and a reliever (and if they want a backup, we could give them Soto) for Puig and Barnes. I'd probably be willing to throw in a prospect. I'd also have interest in Guerrero if the Sox could work something out with Guerrero. Guerrero's trade value has to be near nil and his production has fallen and he hasn't gotten much any playing time (which based upon what I've read in the LA Times, is a big driver of his offensive struggles). He isn't playing because his defense doesn't play at 3rd, however, I don't know that it is because he can't play third. It has more to do with his terrible contract and how he'd be a FA had the Dodgers sent him down (or had the right to) so he really never got much of an opportunity to work on his defense at 3rd (where he doesn't have a lot of experience) or in the outfield. I think his bat plays (tools are strong) and the skillset is their. If we could work something out with him (to keep him around in the future), their could be some nice upside in getting Guerrero and giving him the time now to put in the work at 3rd (as long as our scouts see the potential to play their) and you might even be able to get a 3rd basemen of the future. No idea how willing Guerrero is to work with a team but Sox could clearly offer him plenty of at bats. 27 years old and in his first time in the minors (last year, in a shortened season due to his ear being bit off by Miguel Olivo) he put up a .994 OPS with 17 homers in 77 games (15 walks and 55 strikeouts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Pentecost is obviously the biggest name that has been floated. Obviously the shoulder is a concern, but we have to assume that if the Sox target him, they are satisfied with the medicals. Sounds like Cashman has been poo-pooing the idea of any big acquisitions, so I'd imagine that he's not planning on moving Sanchez, who is finally hitting in AAA. If anyone is still dreaming about Schwarber for Quintana or something, I'd recommend letting that thought go. I think the Astros see Stassi as their long-term solutions and are going to let their older guys go to free agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySox Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 So what would we have to give up for Barnes, Puig, and Guerrero? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (RaySox @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:17 PM) So what would we have to give up for Barnes, Puig, and Guerrero? IMO since you included him that sounds like a potential Quintana package, not sure about the non-bolded guys and if that's enough for me but that's the level you just put us at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I suggested Puig+Barnes for Q+a piece in the other thread. You robbed my idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I really like what I've read about Barnes. Said to be an excellent catcher, great eye, plus speed for a catcher. Might be grossly undervaluing Sharks value, but I really wouldn't be mad if he's the centerpiece in a Shark trade. Maybe Barnes and one of their many SP prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySox Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Seems like there are a few great catchers in the majors, and then some serviceable catchers, and then White Sox catchers. Anything we get has to be an improvement. Edited July 21, 2015 by RaySox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (RaySox @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:39 AM) Seems like there are a few great catchers in the majors, and then some serviceable catchers, and then White Sox catchers. Anything we get has to be an improvement. iirc the White Sox catchers fall into the serviceable category. Its just a position that doesnt have a lot of good to great players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 While I'm not opposed to acquiring a catcher for the future, getting one for the immediate future would be silly given that we have a decent catcher compared to the rest of the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:41 AM) iirc the White Sox catchers fall into the serviceable category. Its just a position that doesnt have a lot of good to great players Exactly. The catcher is the weakest position in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsoxhurt35 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I'd much rather surround Tyler with a good offense. Much like the Tigers have done with Avila. I'd love to have a great catcher but there's just not many great ones around. Edited July 21, 2015 by Bigsoxhurt35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Bigsoxhurt35 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:53 PM) I'd much rather surround Tyler with a good offense. Much like the Tigers have done with Avila. I'd love to have a great catcher but there's just not many great ones around. Avila is pretty good when he is healthy, he just hasnt been healthy since pretty much the start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Where are we getting the impression that Tyler Flowers is decent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 02:33 PM) Where are we getting the impression that Tyler Flowers is decent? He is a "replacement level player". He's been just about as valuable at his position this year as Adam Eaton. If we had a strong team around him, that'd be ok. A team can live with 1-2 replacement level players in their lineup if they're strong elsewhere. OTOH, we're weak everywhere. Our OF is easily the worst in baseball. 3b, 2b, SS all are terrible. Flowers being a replacement level player is therefore a problem, but it's not even as big of a problem as say, Avi Garcia is. If we could find a major upgrade at catcher, fine go ahead. But it's not our biggest issue. If we upgraded catcher solidly and brought the IF up to tolerable with Micah, Saladino, Sanchez, and maybe a FA signing, we'd still have major issues in the OF and elsewhere in the lineup. Edit: Other way to look at it? The White Sox are 16th in MLB in fWAR out of the Catcher's spot. The White Sox are 17th in MLB in fWAR out of the 1b spot. Soto has helped that, but that should scale where the catcher's spot sits right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:40 PM) He is a "replacement level player". He's been just about as valuable at his position this year as Adam Eaton. If we had a strong team around him, that'd be ok. A team can live with 1-2 replacement level players in their lineup if they're strong elsewhere. OTOH, we're weak everywhere. Our OF is easily the worst in baseball. 3b, 2b, SS all are terrible. Flowers being a replacement level player is therefore a problem, but it's not even as big of a problem as say, Avi Garcia is. If we could find a major upgrade at catcher, fine go ahead. But it's not our biggest issue. If we upgraded catcher solidly and brought the IF up to tolerable with Micah, Saladino, Sanchez, and maybe a FA signing, we'd still have major issues in the OF and elsewhere in the lineup. The difference between Flowers and our OFs is that all of our OFs have upside. So while a 2-win upgrade would feel like a 2-win upgrade anywhere, you're far, far less likely to get it out of Flowers than you are out of Eaton or even Garcia. Obviously I've convinced myself Alexei is much more likely to turn up for 2-wins as well. At 2B, we at least have a couple defenders and several prospects who could break out. Catcher is a wasteland. i agree that 3B is just as big a problem, maybe moreso. But I don't think we should be ready to tolerate replacement-level at any point on the diamond. Even if it means picking up some zombie veteran who can give us 1 WAR for a few million bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:57 AM) The difference between Flowers and our OFs is that all of our OFs have upside. So while a 2-win upgrade would feel like a 2-win upgrade anywhere, you're far, far less likely to get it out of Flowers than you are out of Eaton or even Garcia. Obviously I've convinced myself Alexei is much more likely to turn up for 2-wins as well. At 2B, we at least have a couple defenders and several prospects who could break out. Catcher is a wasteland. i agree that 3B is just as big a problem, maybe moreso. But I don't think we should be ready to tolerate replacement-level at any point on the diamond. Even if it means picking up some zombie veteran who can give us 1 WAR for a few million bucks. I would argue the upside of Garcia, but it depends on how you view his defensive upside. If you don't think it is significant, then it would take massive offensive upside to make him very valuable. I think 3B and Corner outfield are massive holes. I'd also argue shortstop is as well, but again, shortstop is a bit of a wasteland (although not to the same extent as catcher). Sure if you have someone above average their, it is a major win, but we fail so significantly in the corner outfield and at 3B. I won't discuss 2B because I think we have internal options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:59 PM) I would argue the upside of Garcia, but it depends on how you view his defensive upside. If you don't think it is significant, then it would take massive offensive upside to make him very valuable. I think 3B and Corner outfield are massive holes. I'd also argue shortstop is as well, but again, shortstop is a bit of a wasteland (although not to the same extent as catcher). Sure if you have someone above average their, it is a major win, but we fail so significantly in the corner outfield and at 3B. I won't discuss 2B because I think we have internal options. You won't find me arguing much to defend Garcia -- I'm just saying he's a better bet to be productive than Flowers is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 03:38 PM) You won't find me arguing much to defend Garcia -- I'm just saying he's a better bet to be productive than Flowers is. He's also a better bet to be much worse than Flowers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:33 PM) Where are we getting the impression that Tyler Flowers is decent? He's labour league average offensively. Bigger problems all over the diamond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 02:39 PM) He's also a better bet to be much worse than Flowers. Yeesh. Not sure I'd go that far. All Avi has to do is learn to elevate IMO, and I STILL think he has a chance to do that. Perhaps that is just me being the optimist I am, but I still haven't given up on him yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (scs787 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 04:22 PM) Yeesh. Not sure I'd go that far. All Avi has to do is learn to elevate IMO, and I STILL think he has a chance to do that. Perhaps that is just me being the optimist I am, but I still haven't given up on him yet. I would say he's a better bet to be worse than Flowers because he has been worse than Flowers this year. He's among the 10 worst corner OF's in the league (the White Sox have 2 of them). I wouldn't give up on him either....but if I was going to spend money on free agents and declare that we're going to win in 2016 he would be the #2 guy I'd replace (after the 3b slot). IMO, he's the kind of guy the White Sox should actually be targeting. Still cheap for 1 more year, a couple years of team control left, talented, vastly underperforming. Throw him out there and play him, but stop thinking he's a "Win now" player because you're more likely to wind up with results like this year than to have him help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 02:12 PM) He's labour league average offensively. Bigger problems all over the diamond He's not, though. 73 wRC+ is awful and very much below league-average, and his defense (at least to the extent we can measure it) doesn;t make up the difference. He's a replacement-level player. He's the definition of a hole in the lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:39 PM) He's also a better bet to be much worse than Flowers. I think you're missing my point, though -- there's a chance he'll be good. There's (virtually) no chance Flowers will be good. So if you can only replace one, you're better off with a decent player and a bad guy with upside than you are with a decent player and a bad guy with no upside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 There really are just not many options to upgrade at C, and in turn is the most expensive position to upgrade significantly. The Sox have Flowers but also 4-5 other guys in house I would want to try out before giving up much to improve the position. Neither McGuire nor Pentecost are gurantees to be better at Tyler either offensively or defensively. Tyler had a really strong offensive profile coming up and the thought was that he would not be able to stick at C defensively but his bat would allow him to play a corner IF spot. Obviously that didn't turn out, but you need to be very careful when looking at prospect catchers as most with any skill offensively are moved off the spot to play a position that will allow for their bat to carry them through the farm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 03:41 PM) He's not, though. 73 wRC+ is awful and very much below league-average, and his defense (at least to the extent we can measure it) doesn;t make up the difference. He's a replacement-level player. He's the definition of a hole in the lineup. This is exactly what the catcher position is for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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