SoxNet: Loyalty without accountability

[Quin]

http://www.chicagonow.com/soxnet/2015/07/l...accountability/

 

In the first "Lip Service" column, Mark looks at loyalty without accountability in the org.

[Soxfest]

I have echoed this sentiment many times.

[knightni]

http://www.chicagonow.com/soxnet/2015/07/l...accountability/

 

In the first "Lip Service" column, Mark looks at loyalty without accountability in the org.

Excellent article.

 

It's like you're speaking my thoughts, Mark.

[LDF]

http://www.chicagonow.com/soxnet/2015/07/l...accountability/

 

In the first "Lip Service" column, Mark looks at loyalty without accountability in the org.

 

it was a real nice reading article

 

i like the veiled suggesting that things need to change from the top down. but the loyalty factor is something to thnk about.

[Dick Allen]

So they changed the manager, and the GM, and admits JR isn't going anywhere...why doesn't this article cut out the BS and directly say what it wants to say? It's obvious Lip wants KW's head.

[Lip Man 1]

Dick:

 

Kenny in my view is a big part of the problem but pinning the entire situation on one guy is wrong in my opinion. Do I think the organization would be better off if JR allows him to leave to say Toronto this off season? Absolutely and many of the off season moves have a Kenny feel to them given his M.O. for over a decade.

 

But that won't solve all the problems, especially in drafting and minor league player development. Kenny doesn't have a lot of hands-on stuff in those areas from what I know.

 

Mark

[oneofthemikes]

Bravo!

 

Well written and it eloquently states the way that many of us already feel. Continuing to spend on FA talent or trading for prospects does nothing if, once they arrive, they are in a poorly run system. Large scale changes need to take place in nearly every facet of the organization. Pitching coaching and development seems to be about the only thing the organization does well.

[Chisoxfn]

Great piece Lip and I wonder if the best thing for the organization would have been to let Ken Williams go to Toronto (maybe we'd have even gotten a prospect) in the off-season. I commend Kenny and think he was extremely creative and he kept us relevant. He was never afraid to swing for the fences and he built the first White Sox world series champion you / I were able to see. However, he's been here a long time and we have failed to go on a sustainable run.

 

We have a new guy here, Rick Hahn, who while he came up and worked in this organization, he brings his own fresh ideas and with Kenny involved, it is hard for any of us to get a read on who Rick Hahn is. I think at this point, Kenny should move his separate ways so he can try new things (and Kenny himself has said numerous times, he misses the details, he misses the GM duties) and we should see what Rick can do.

 

I do think that whatever happens, we need an organizational change in the minors, with a focus being on the position side. The hard part is, those types of changes take a long time to evaluate progress, but the Buddy Bell era has produced absolutely zilch when it comes to position talent. We have done extremely well on the pitching side and I think that is a credit of the consistent philosphy preached throughout the organization when it comes to arms and it is a testament to Coop, Hahn, Kenny, all the minor league pitching coaches and of course the scouts.

 

Sverson was supposedly doing something similar, but I think the culture from the position side comes down from the manager and even the GM and we need to do something like the Twins did for so long under Tom Kelly (and eventually Gardy). To be frank, I think the Sox turning control of the baseball responsibilities to someone like Gardy (while retaining Coop) would be a tremendous boom for the Sox.

[Dick Allen]

Dick:

 

Kenny in my view is a big part of the problem but pinning the entire situation on one guy is wrong in my opinion. Do I think the organization would be better off if JR allows him to leave to say Toronto this off season? Absolutely and many of the off season moves have a Kenny feel to them given his M.O. for over a decade.

 

But that won't solve all the problems, especially in drafting and minor league player development. Kenny doesn't have a lot of hands-on stuff in those areas from what I know.

 

Mark

But from the periods you are discussing, they have made changes. Laumann does the draft. Hahn is the GM. Marco Paddy was hired. Ventura is a change. They have done exactly what you are calling for except for one guy, and now, all of a sudden, after a winter of giddiness from Sox fans. Soxfest sellouts, everyone bowing to Hahn, failure happens. Guess what? Now all those moves that couldn't have been more praised by media and the fans, they had nothing to do with Rick Hahn. It clearly was Kenny Williams, the guy that did build the only team that has won in about 100 years, now hasn't a clue, and is forcing Hahn to sign players, and has a gun to JR's head telling him he has to approve the payroll increase. That's fine and dandy, but now let's get back to the facts, which aren't so entertaining. JR was told his team had a lot of holes and was a bit away from contending. JR wanted to win right away and told his guys they needed to do what they could to make that happen. They don't have much they can trade away for anything that helps, but they took that, and got Samardzija. They did the other thing they could do and signed several free agents. This wasn't KW running the ship, this was JR. Maybe KW goes to Toronto or somewhere else this offseason, but he and Hahn did what JR ordered. Baseball, not being like other things in life, sometimes doesn't go as planned no matter how much effort and thought you put into it.

[Chisoxfn]

So they changed the manager, and the GM, and admits JR isn't going anywhere...why doesn't this article cut out the BS and directly say what it wants to say? It's obvious Lip wants KW's head.

I think Hahn deserves his chance to shine on his own. I also think we need a cultural change from a player development perspective. I am not saying someone else would do a better job then Robin, necessarily, but I do think Gardenhire is the type of guy that has a track record of success (and yes, when he had lousy players, his team stunk too, so players matter and it is why under no scenario am I saying this is all Robin's fault, but I also don't think Robin is anything special) and I think our problems on player development are deep grained and the poor fundamentals seem to keep coming through so I would like a manager who has a real philosophy that he can push down, especially on the position side and Gardy and the Twins philosophies are ones that I would support and I do think it would be a positive culture change for this organization.

 

Showalter is another one of those guys but obviously he isn't available.

[knightni]

The main point in all of this that's missed is that Ventura has no previous coaching experience on any level outside of his kids' teams.

 

Who gets hired to a top level job by any sane/employed person that has zero experience in lower levels to show that they actually know what they're doing?

[Balta1701]

But from the periods you are discussing, they have made changes. Laumann does the draft. Hahn is the GM. Marco Paddy was hired. Ventura is a change. They have done exactly what you are calling for except for one guy, and now, all of a sudden, after a winter of giddiness from Sox fans.

Maybe it's time to ask the question again...what haven't they changed? They haven't changed the way they treat minor leaguers, they haven't improved their effectiveness in that, they haven't change the philosophy of buying expensive, mid-level free agents, they haven't changed the philosophy of sacrificing depth for front line guys, they haven't changed their philosophy on defense, they haven't changed anything that allows them to turn what talent they do acquire into big league contributors. Changing the names on the door but continuing to do things that are failing consistently is not likely to change the consistent record of failure.

 

Soxfest sellouts, everyone bowing to Hahn, failure happens. Guess what? Now all those moves that couldn't have been more praised by media and the fans, they had nothing to do with Rick Hahn. It clearly was Kenny Williams, the guy that did build the only team that has won in about 100 years, now hasn't a clue, and is forcing Hahn to sign players, and has a gun to JR's head telling him he has to approve the payroll increase. That's fine and dandy, but now let's get back to the facts, which aren't so entertaining. JR was told his team had a lot of holes and was a bit away from contending. JR wanted to win right away and told his guys they needed to do what they could to make that happen. They don't have much they can trade away for anything that helps, but they took that, and got Samardzija. They did the other thing they could do and signed several free agents. This wasn't KW running the ship, this was JR. Maybe KW goes to Toronto or somewhere else this offseason, but he and Hahn did what JR ordered. Baseball, not being like other things in life, sometimes doesn't go as planned no matter how much effort and thought you put into it.

One key thing left out...if it was the owner pushing that, is what the GM's response was? Did the GM think this would work? Did the GM advise against it? Did the GM say that there was a particularly high risk that things would go wrong and it would cause a major setback that would hurt the team even in 2016-2017?

 

Your statements suggest the GM was forced unwillingly into the type of moves that continue failing for this team. If the GM cautioned against those moves in private, which we'll never know, fine that's a logical reason to hold onto him and maybe we'll actually get the owner who learns his lesson. If not, if the GM was on board with them, then the GM endorsed that failure just as much.

[Dick Allen]

The main point in all of this that's missed is that Ventura has no previous coaching experience on any level outside of his kids' teams.

 

Who gets hired to a top level job by any sane/employed person that has zero experience in lower levels to show that they actually know what they're doing?

In the major leagues alone, there are several. The guy played MLB for many years, under a lot of different managers. The implication that he was totally blind coming in is just wrong, and his first season, the White Sox played well above expecations. After that, the experience card should have been played out.

[Dick Allen]

Maybe it's time to ask the question again...what haven't they changed? They haven't changed the way they treat minor leaguers, they haven't improved their effectiveness in that, they haven't change the philosophy of buying expensive, mid-level free agents, they haven't changed the philosophy of sacrificing depth for front line guys, they haven't changed their philosophy on defense, they haven't changed anything that allows them to turn what talent they do acquire into big league contributors. Changing the names on the door but continuing to do things that are failing consistently is not likely to change the consistent record of failure.

 

One key thing left out...if it was the owner pushing that, is what the GM's response was? Did the GM think this would work? Did the GM advise against it? Did the GM say that there was a particularly high risk that things would go wrong and it would cause a major setback that would hurt the team even in 2016-2017?

 

Your statements suggest the GM was forced unwillingly into the type of moves that continue failing for this team. If the GM cautioned against those moves in private, which we'll never know, fine that's a logical reason to hold onto him and maybe we'll actually get the owner who learns his lesson. If not, if the GM was on board with them, then the GM endorsed that failure just as much.

So if your boss tells you to do something and you say OK, and it doesn't work, you should get fired. If you told your boss it was a big mistake but you will do what he says anyway, then OK? That's ridiculous, especially in a competitive game. JR wants to compete, opened the wallet, and knowing mediocrity can still get you in the playoffs, there isn't one person who would tell JR to hang on to his wallet until Courtney Hawkins and Matt Davidson are ready to be called up to make Tyler Flowers look like the greatest contact hitter of all time.

[Balta1701]

In the major leagues alone, there are several. The guy played MLB for many years, under a lot of different managers. The implication that he was totally blind coming in is just wrong, and his first season, the White Sox played well above expecations. After that, the experience card should have been played out.

It is possible that turning around a veteran-laden team that has gotten tired of its blowhard, uninterested manager could be a different challenge from building a younger, poorly-taught team that needs to have people step up and reach their talent level to succeed.

[Lip Man 1]

The main point in all of this that's missed is that Ventura has no previous coaching experience on any level outside of his kids' teams.

 

Who gets hired to a top level job by any sane/employed person that has zero experience in lower levels to show that they actually know what they're doing?

 

Well Kenny hired Robin after asking Konerko to become a player / manager. Konerko turned him down saying it would be to much to try to do. JR then approved Kenny's decision since he has the final say on positions like that.

 

So if blame needs to be assigned, I assume it goes mainly to Kenny for floating those ideas and then JR for continuing his philosophy of not hiring a manager with previous managerial experience at the major league level since Jeff Torborg in 1989.

 

Mark

Edited July 21, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[Balta1701]

So if your boss tells you to do something and you say OK, and it doesn't work, you should get fired. If you told your boss it was a big mistake but you will do what he says anyway, then OK? That's ridiculous, especially in a competitive game. JR wants to compete, opened the wallet, and knowing mediocrity can still get you in the playoffs, there isn't one person who would tell JR to hang on to his wallet until Courtney Hawkins and Matt Davidson are ready to be called up to make Tyler Flowers look like the greatest contact hitter of all time.

Yes, I'd have a helluva lot more confidence in a guy who said "this is unlikely to work" and then had things not work than a guy who said "This is going to work great", spent $50 million/year on that bet, and then was proven completely wrong.

 

But if you'd like to hang your hat on the Matt Davidson trade as the crowning summary of the Rick Hahn era I guess that's an ok thing to take from your post too.

[knightni]

Well Kenny hired Robin after asking Konerko to become a player / manager. Konerko turned him down saying it would be to much to try to do. JR then approved Kenny's decision since he has the final say on positions like that.

 

So if blame needs to be assigned, I assume it goes mainly to Kenny for floating those ideas and then JR for continuing his philosophy of not hiring a manager with previous managerial experience at the major league level since Jeff Torborg in 1989.

 

Mark

 

 

It's not that there's an issue with no major league experince in managing, it's no experience in managing at all.

 

[Dick Allen]

It is possible that turning around a veteran-laden team that has gotten tired of its blowhard, uninterested manager could be a different challenge from building a younger, poorly-taught team that needs to have people step up and reach their talent level to succeed.

 

It could be, but we don't know. Considering how many people here with zero experience seem to know each and every mistake Robin makes (usually in hindsight) it is hard to understand the cry for experience being so important.

[Lip Man 1]

But from the periods you are discussing, they have made changes. Laumann does the draft. Hahn is the GM. Marco Paddy was hired. Ventura is a change. They have done exactly what you are calling for except for one guy, and now, all of a sudden, after a winter of giddiness from Sox fans. Soxfest sellouts, everyone bowing to Hahn, failure happens. Guess what? Now all those moves that couldn't have been more praised by media and the fans, they had nothing to do with Rick Hahn. It clearly was Kenny Williams, the guy that did build the only team that has won in about 100 years, now hasn't a clue, and is forcing Hahn to sign players, and has a gun to JR's head telling him he has to approve the payroll increase. That's fine and dandy, but now let's get back to the facts, which aren't so entertaining. JR was told his team had a lot of holes and was a bit away from contending. JR wanted to win right away and told his guys they needed to do what they could to make that happen. They don't have much they can trade away for anything that helps, but they took that, and got Samardzija. They did the other thing they could do and signed several free agents. This wasn't KW running the ship, this was JR. Maybe KW goes to Toronto or somewhere else this offseason, but he and Hahn did what JR ordered. Baseball, not being like other things in life, sometimes doesn't go as planned no matter how much effort and thought you put into it.

 

Dick:

 

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough and if so that's on me, but the point I was trying to make with the comparison to 1970 was to go outside the organization. I did mention something along those lines but perhaps not strongly enough.

 

There are simply far to many people in the organization from top to bottom with loyalty ties to JR, to many people having worked for the Bulls organization and crossed over or folks who basically owe their careers to JR. They certainly made changes, how could they not in 10 years, but the mind set seems to be the same since many of the individuals have ties to either the White Sox or JR.

 

I simply wish completely outside people would be brought in from successful winning organizations like the Cardinals, Rays, Tigers, Angels for example. That's what I meant when I wrote about "fresh eyes / fresh ideas..."

 

Again if I didn't make that clear I apologize.

 

Mark

 

[Balta1701]

It could be, but we don't know. Considering how many people here with zero experience seem to know each and every mistake Robin makes (usually in hindsight) it is hard to understand the cry for experience being so important.

But the one measureable we do have...wins and losses, indicates that what we're doing right now is failing, consistently.

[Chisoxfn]

But from the periods you are discussing, they have made changes. Laumann does the draft. Hahn is the GM. Marco Paddy was hired. Ventura is a change. They have done exactly what you are calling for except for one guy, and now, all of a sudden, after a winter of giddiness from Sox fans. Soxfest sellouts, everyone bowing to Hahn, failure happens. Guess what? Now all those moves that couldn't have been more praised by media and the fans, they had nothing to do with Rick Hahn. It clearly was Kenny Williams, the guy that did build the only team that has won in about 100 years, now hasn't a clue, and is forcing Hahn to sign players, and has a gun to JR's head telling him he has to approve the payroll increase. That's fine and dandy, but now let's get back to the facts, which aren't so entertaining. JR was told his team had a lot of holes and was a bit away from contending. JR wanted to win right away and told his guys they needed to do what they could to make that happen. They don't have much they can trade away for anything that helps, but they took that, and got Samardzija. They did the other thing they could do and signed several free agents. This wasn't KW running the ship, this was JR. Maybe KW goes to Toronto or somewhere else this offseason, but he and Hahn did what JR ordered. Baseball, not being like other things in life, sometimes doesn't go as planned no matter how much effort and thought you put into it.

I don't disagree with anything that you said, but I also think we have decided that Hanh is our guy and I think he deserves that shot and Kenny should be praised for what he did, but he also wants to be in the details. Yes, having multiple guys who know things and are smart baseball people are great, but I think in this case, the direction should come from Hahn. We clearly think he is a sharp bright mind and right now Kenny is still pretty involved. Clearly JR likes it that way and has a lot of faith in Kenny (and to a large extent, rightfully so), but we have two guys that want to be fully involved and that can lead to competing priorities.

 

That said, a lot of what happened this off-season, and the speed in which it occurred, had to do with JR's wishes. However, the lack of a farm system, etc, did happen largely under Kenny's watch so we were put in this position to rebuild under Kenny and yes, under Kenny we also won a world series and at times looked like we could be major players for a long time. Unfortunately, on field performance largely didn't work itself out and unfortunately, it doesn't seem to just be bad luck, as we have consistently under performed (or so it would appear) and at some point I think it isn't bad luck, but probably something we are doing wrong as an organization.

[Dick Allen]

But the one measureable we do have...wins and losses, indicates that what we're doing right now is failing, consistently.

Right now yes. But what is the reason? 7 or 8 years ago, the reason the White Sox weren't scoring runs was the hitting coach according to many here. He resigned. Praise the Lord. How is that offense? If KW goes to Toronto, or on a Love Boat cruise, it really wouldn't bother me, but to blame him for this failure is silly. To blame 'loyalty" is silly. There have been plenty of changes in the organization the last several years. Pretty much everyone but KW and Cooper weren't in those positions when the Sox won the WS. I understand writing a blog could be walking on eggshells as the White Sox do grant some favors. But if this article isn't about it's time for JR to sell or KW to take a walk, then it's accuracy is a bit off.

[Chisoxfn]

The main point in all of this that's missed is that Ventura has no previous coaching experience on any level outside of his kids' teams.

 

Who gets hired to a top level job by any sane/employed person that has zero experience in lower levels to show that they actually know what they're doing?

Mike Matheny didn't have any experience.

[Balta1701]

Right now yes. But what is the reason? 7 or 8 years ago, the reason the White Sox weren't scoring runs was the hitting coach according to many here. He resigned. Praise the Lord. How is that offense? If KW goes to Toronto, or on a Love Boat cruise, it really wouldn't bother me, but to blame him for this failure is silly. To blame 'loyalty" is silly. There have been plenty of changes in the organization the last several years. Pretty much everyone but KW and Cooper weren't in those positions when the Sox won the WS. I understand writing a blog could be walking on eggshells as the White Sox do grant some favors. But if this article isn't about it's time for JR to sell or KW to take a walk, then it's accuracy is a bit off.

So what's the commonality? We continue to do the same thing in the minor leagues, produce the same type of players who struggle with defense and strikeouts and never hold onto a position once they get to the big leagues. We continue to buy into the FA market and have it bite us every time. As you note, we've changed some people, but the results are the same. If that philosophy is coming from the owner, then buckle up because we're just going to have to get used to this and maybe eventually the team will move. Otherwise, those changes are producing...exactly the same results. So it's time to ask what hasn't changed...and you just highlighted 2 sets of initials.