bmags Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:28 PM) Right now yes. But what is the reason? 7 or 8 years ago, the reason the White Sox weren't scoring runs was the hitting coach according to many here. He resigned. Praise the Lord. How is that offense? If KW goes to Toronto, or on a Love Boat cruise, it really wouldn't bother me, but to blame him for this failure is silly. To blame 'loyalty" is silly. There have been plenty of changes in the organization the last several years. Pretty much everyone but KW and Cooper weren't in those positions when the Sox won the WS. I understand writing a blog could be walking on eggshells as the White Sox do grant some favors. But if this article isn't about it's time for JR to sell or KW to take a walk, then it's accuracy is a bit off. Basically your answer to everything is that no one can be accountable for failure in a large organization because some poster some years ago made an argument against Greg Walker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:29 PM) Mike Matheny didn't have any experience. Matheny also doesn't have a passive attitude either. He's a cerebral former catcher with great leadership skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:29 PM) Mike Matheny didn't have any experience. He also was handed a world series team. And gets a lot of s*** for making many bizarre decisions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:45 AM) Dick: Kenny in my view is a big part of the problem but pinning the entire situation on one guy is wrong in my opinion. Do I think the organization would be better off if JR allows him to leave to say Toronto this off season? Absolutely and many of the off season moves have a Kenny feel to them given his M.O. for over a decade. But that won't solve all the problems, especially in drafting and minor league player development. Kenny doesn't have a lot of hands-on stuff in those areas from what I know. Mark So we are back to Hahn being an absolute moron to take a job where he has no power and decline other jobs where he has power. So Hahn needs to go as well since he has no ambition to do the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyone Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 At the end of the day it is time for JR to go... and anybody else in his inner circle that wants to as well. Let his son take over, and forge a new path for this team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:29 AM) Mike Matheny didn't have any experience. There's a theory, don't know if there is any truth to it or not that catchers because they have to look at the game from a different standpoint than other positional players make the best managers. Could be part of the reason Mike is doing so well. Plus I don't think anybody would disagree that the Cardinals are a better organization with a far superior minor league operation. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 10:07 AM) Maybe it's time to ask the question again...what haven't they changed? They haven't changed the way they treat minor leaguers, they haven't improved their effectiveness in that, they haven't change the philosophy of buying expensive, mid-level free agents, they haven't changed the philosophy of sacrificing depth for front line guys, they haven't changed their philosophy on defense, they haven't changed anything that allows them to turn what talent they do acquire into big league contributors. Changing the names on the door but continuing to do things that are failing consistently is not likely to change the consistent record of failure. One key thing left out...if it was the owner pushing that, is what the GM's response was? Did the GM think this would work? Did the GM advise against it? Did the GM say that there was a particularly high risk that things would go wrong and it would cause a major setback that would hurt the team even in 2016-2017? Your statements suggest the GM was forced unwillingly into the type of moves that continue failing for this team. If the GM cautioned against those moves in private, which we'll never know, fine that's a logical reason to hold onto him and maybe we'll actually get the owner who learns his lesson. If not, if the GM was on board with them, then the GM endorsed that failure just as much. This is the one spot that you and I disagree, but I don't think much of what we did necessarily set us back that much. I don't think LaRoche contract decimated the club and I don't think the Melky deal did either, but I suppose that one was more risky given the extra years. I still think you can spin Shark today and get the equivalent of what we gave up (and as I've long said we traded from a surplus given the Semien was the primary chip). In fact, I think we could get more, so one could argue (and none of us were privy to the conversations) that Kenny and Rick told JR, okay, we can try to make a push, give it our best, but whatever we do, we will ensure ourselves we have ability to pivot after this year depending on how things go (as we know this team can only contend if all of these things go right vs. even with x and y going against us, we'll still contend). No point in you and I arguing this back and forth since we both see these differently regarding what the Sox did this off-season. You think it set us back, I happen to have a differing opinion, but that is a seperate argument. None of us know that conversations between JR / Rick / Kenny and what went down and we also don't know strategically what they have in mind, but my presumption is we'll at least find out if our return for Shark exceeds what we gave up (on paper) in the next few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:32 PM) Basically your answer to everything is that no one can be accountable for failure in a large organization because some poster some years ago made an argument against Greg Walker. No. I just don't join lynch mobs. I just wonder why isn't this "historical" lack of offense not blamed on the hitting coach? Why was Ozzie Guillen's stint as a 3rd base coach all the experience anyone really needs? Robin actually did better his first year as a manager with probably a lot less roster. Why were all the moves made this winter praised and Rick Hahn admired, and when they didn't work, then shifted to KW's decisions, and Hahn is nothing but a puppet? And if Rick Hahn is KW's b****, why would anyone think he would have any reasonable chance to succeed as a GM on his own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:35 PM) There's a theory, don't know if there is any truth to it or not that catchers because they have to look at the game from a different standpoint than other positional players make the best managers. Could be part of the reason Mike is doing so well. Plus I don't think anybody would disagree that the Cardinals are a better organization with a far superior minor league operation. Mark It's a theory that really hasn't proven anything. There have been plenty of good managers that weren't catchers. It's the person not the position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Greyone @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:33 AM) At the end of the day it is time for JR to go... and anybody else in his inner circle that wants to as well. Let his son take over, and forge a new path for this team. JR has publicly said many times that when he's gone he recommended to his family that they sell the team. He's also said publicly that they have no interest in running the show when he's gone for what that's worth. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:38 PM) No. I just don't join lynch mobs. I just wonder why isn't this "historical" lack of offense not blamed on the hitting coach? Why was Ozzie Guillen's stint as a 3rd base coach all the experience anyone really needs? Robin actually did better his first year as a manager with probably a lot less roster. Why were all the moves made this winter praised and Rick Hahn admired, and when they didn't work, then shifted to KW's decisions, and Hahn is nothing but a puppet? And if Rick Hahn is KW's b****, why would anyone think he would have any reasonable chance to succeed as a GM on his own? Exactly. If this situation is true, why would anyone want Hahn around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:38 PM) It's a theory that really hasn't proven anything. There have been plenty of good managers that weren't catchers. It's the person not the position. Of course, if many of those managers had to go through several stops such as being a bench coach or coaching in the minors or even failing in the big leagues before they became highly regarded, whereas catchers could step in right away, that could indicate an advantage for that position which you are not taking into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:38 PM) No. I just don't join lynch mobs. I just wonder why isn't this "historical" lack of offense not blamed on the hitting coach? Why was Ozzie Guillen's stint as a 3rd base coach all the experience anyone really needs? Robin actually did better his first year as a manager with probably a lot less roster. Why were all the moves made this winter praised and Rick Hahn admired, and when they didn't work, then shifted to KW's decisions, and Hahn is nothing but a puppet? And if Rick Hahn is KW's b****, why would anyone think he would have any reasonable chance to succeed as a GM on his own? Simple maybe what Hahn would do on his own is a 180 degrees of what he has to do under KW. I am not saying Hahn would be any better but he needs a chance to show he can do the job or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:38 PM) JR has publicly said many times that when he's gone he recommended to his family that they sell the team. He's also said publicly that they have no interest in running the show when he's gone for what that's worth. Mark I have a pretty good source that at least one member of the Reinsdorf clan would love to run the White Sox, and they will still have control of the team when JR is no longer capable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:40 PM) Exactly. If this situation is true, why would anyone want Hahn around? The safest option really is to fire them all. We don't know who's failing but we know at least one, possibly several people are, for things to go this consistently downhill. Just to be careful let's get rid of them all. That way we know with certainty we've gotten rid of the problem and just need to find competent replacements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:40 PM) Of course, if many of those managers had to go through several stops such as being a bench coach or coaching in the minors or even failing in the big leagues before they became highly regarded, whereas catchers could step in right away, that could indicate an advantage for that position which you are not taking into account. Prior to Ventura, who's the last former non-catcher with no college, no minor league, or major league experience hired to a top MLB managerial job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:38 PM) JR has publicly said many times that when he's gone he recommended to his family that they sell the team. He's also said publicly that they have no interest in running the show when he's gone for what that's worth. Mark This is a distorted look at his comments. his comments were directed at the NBA teams are much easier and profitable to run due to the different situation ie, CBA, unions, in the individual sports. JR still believes that baseball concedes way to much to the players and costs are uncontrollable. That is why his kids should sell his shares of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:38 PM) No. I just don't join lynch mobs. I just wonder why isn't this "historical" lack of offense not blamed on the hitting coach? Why was Ozzie Guillen's stint as a 3rd base coach all the experience anyone really needs? Robin actually did better his first year as a manager with probably a lot less roster. Why were all the moves made this winter praised and Rick Hahn admired, and when they didn't work, then shifted to KW's decisions, and Hahn is nothing but a puppet? And if Rick Hahn is KW's b****, why would anyone think he would have any reasonable chance to succeed as a GM on his own? Those same people, if asked, would all support the firehouse clearing of KW/Hahn/Buddy Bell/Robin/Steverson Hahn has the same situation as Emery in the Bears, seemed to be taking the right steps, drafting had been slightly better, but moved into a situation that required drastic change and refused to make those changes. Emery didn't clear out scouts and the draft development dept that had drafted no one, and Hahn, despite overhauling our latin america scouting thanks to the most embarrassing scandal this side of 1919, did not overhaul our player development. He has made incremental improvements, but then without the drastic foundational improvements you realize it's just lipstick on a pig. And he needs to own that. So, yes, assuming he walked into a competent org not in need of a complete teardown, i think Rick Hahn would be a pretty good GM. But that's not what he walked into, and the fact that he did not take the steps to build a long-term winner means he should be fired. I agree with Balta, we are sooo much farther away than we realized. We are still in a position where every prospect needs to succeed to stay on track. That's not tenable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Pete Rose, maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:41 PM) Simple maybe what Hahn would do on his own is a 180 degrees of what he has to do under KW. I am not saying Hahn would be any better but he needs a chance to show he can do the job or not. Maybe, maybe not. I like Rick Hahn, but if you or anyone thinks he is KW's puppet and is GM in title only, then what ever you are basing he would be good on his own with, is fantasyland. It would just be another case of JR being loyal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:41 PM) I have a pretty good source that at least one member of the Reinsdorf clan would love to run the White Sox, and they will still have control of the team when JR is no longer capable. That is the most depressing news you can possibly say to a Sox fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 One general perception that I'm getting from all this discussion is that is that the Sox organization as a whole have done a poor job of communicating what "the plan" is and how they intend to carry it out. Talk of this three year "window / plan" seems to have come out when Kenny talked with the media in June for example. For so many fans to have different ideas / perceptions / thoughts of what to do, who to blame, who to fire gives me that impression. Say want you will about Epstein but he made it pretty clear to everyone what he was going to do when he took over the Cubs and he stayed with that philosophy despite the backlash from some in the media for example. Sox fans seem to have little to no sense of what the Sox are trying to do, which is why I made the statement in my column that they have lost credibility with their fan base. I don't expect the organization to have gone into minute detail of their plans but a good overall comment could have helped and then more importantly to stayed true to that. If you are going to rebuild...then rebuild. If you are going to reload, then reload. Fine. I don't think you can "rebuild and contend" at the same time which for years has been a philosophy of Kenny and he has stated that but that's simply my opinion. I think a lot of the questions about who is running the show stem from Hahn's public comments and what he did towards purging the major league roster and trying to patiently rebuild the minor league system and then what took place this off season to go along with Kenny's strident comments in June to the media about Hahn and his staff having to clear everything with him. That starts people wondering, even though that may actually be the status quo for a number of major league teams. Looking back Kenny may have wanted to be more tactful in what he said or perhaps not said anything at all. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:57 PM) One general perception that I'm getting from all this discussion is that is that the Sox organization as a whole have done a poor job of communicating what "the plan" is and how they intend to carry it out. Talk of this three year "window / plan" seems to have come out when Kenny talked with the media in June for example. For so many fans to have different ideas / perceptions / thoughts of what to do, who to blame, who to fire gives me that impression. Say want you will about Epstein but he made it pretty clear to everyone what he was going to do when he took over the Cubs and he stayed with that philosophy despite the backlash from some in the media for example. Sox fans seem to have little to no sense of what the Sox are trying to do, which is why I made the statement in my column that they have lost credibility with their fan base. I don't expect the organization to have gone into minute detail of their plans but a good overall comment could have helped and then more importantly to stayed true to that. If you are going to rebuild...then rebuild. If you are going to reload, then reload. Fine. I don't think you can "rebuild and contend" at the same time which for years has been a philosophy of Kenny and he has stated that but that's simply my opinion. I think a lot of the questions about who is running the show stem from Hahn's public comments and what he did towards purging the major league roster and trying to patiently rebuild the minor league system and then what took place this off season to go along with Kenny's strident comments in June to the media about Hahn and his staff having to clear everything with him. That starts people wondering, even though that may actually be the status quo for a number of major league teams. Looking back Kenny may have wanted to be more tactful in what he said or perhaps not said anything at all. Mark They have made it clear they intend to compete the next 3 years, so no rebuild. I think Oakland has done the rebuild/compete thing with limited success. The problem the White Sox have is shutting it down the 3 or 4 or 5 seasons minimum it would take for a total overhaul will decrease the fanbase. Look at Cleveland. They sold out for years, then got bad for a while, and now even with a few good teams, can't get anywhere near that level. I think the White Sox would be the same way. To get back to 25k a game after a rebuild would take either a lot of luck or several really good years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:57 PM) One general perception that I'm getting from all this discussion is that is that the Sox organization as a whole have done a poor job of communicating what "the plan" is and how they intend to carry it out. Talk of this three year "window / plan" seems to have come out when Kenny talked with the media in June for example. For so many fans to have different ideas / perceptions / thoughts of what to do, who to blame, who to fire gives me that impression. Say want you will about Epstein but he made it pretty clear to everyone what he was going to do when he took over the Cubs and he stayed with that philosophy despite the backlash from some in the media for example. Sox fans seem to have little to no sense of what the Sox are trying to do, which is why I made the statement in my column that they have lost credibility with their fan base. I don't expect the organization to have gone into minute detail of their plans but a good overall comment could have helped and then more importantly to stayed true to that. If you are going to rebuild...then rebuild. If you are going to reload, then reload. Fine. I don't think you can "rebuild and contend" at the same time which for years has been a philosophy of Kenny and he has stated that but that's simply my opinion. I think a lot of the questions about who is running the show stem from Hahn's public comments and what he did towards purging the major league roster and trying to patiently rebuild the minor league system and then what took place this off season to go along with Kenny's strident comments in June to the media about Hahn and his staff having to clear everything with him. That starts people wondering, even though that may actually be the status quo for a number of major league teams. Looking back Kenny may have wanted to be more tactful in what he said or perhaps not said anything at all. Mark It's all a mystery because traditionally, KW is known for being "under the radar." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:04 PM) They have made it clear they intend to compete the next 3 years, so no rebuild. I think Oakland has done the rebuild/compete thing with limited success. The problem the White Sox have is shutting it down the 3 or 4 or 5 seasons minimum it would take for a total overhaul will decrease the fanbase. Look at Cleveland. They sold out for years, then got bad for a while, and now even with a few good teams, can't get anywhere near that level. I think the White Sox would be the same way. To get back to 25k a game after a rebuild would take either a lot of luck or several really good years. Dick: This is more of a rhetorical statement / question. Given the attendance issues particularly the past few years would it really matter if they went to a rebuild instead of a reload philosophy and stated that? Does it really matter if instead of averaging 23 thousand they averaged 18 for the time they were rebuilding? (Especially when you factor in possibly the best lease agreement for the stadium in all of MLB as the Tribune explained in great detail a few months ago) Given the massive revenue streams coming in including from web / internet sources, the former commissioner saying MLB is now a nine billion dollar industry (which is NFL territory) I get the strong sense attendance isn't the "make or break" issue anymore. Just my opinion. Mark Edited July 21, 2015 by Lip Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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