SoxNet: Loyalty without accountability

[Balta1701]

They have made it clear they intend to compete the next 3 years, so no rebuild. I think Oakland has done the rebuild/compete thing with limited success. The problem the White Sox have is shutting it down the 3 or 4 or 5 seasons minimum it would take for a total overhaul will decrease the fanbase. Look at Cleveland. They sold out for years, then got bad for a while, and now even with a few good teams, can't get anywhere near that level. I think the White Sox would be the same way. To get back to 25k a game after a rebuild would take either a lot of luck or several really good years.

Here's the problem.

 

"Oh no, the White Sox would never be able to sustain a rebuild. Could imagine what it would do to the fan base if they had like 4 losing seasons out of 5 years?"

 

Yeah, we've already done that. We're going to really pay for it next year based on how terrible the walkup crowds look this eyar. The "rebuilding will destroy this fan base" threat doesn't work when we've done exactly that without any rebuilding and with a roster that looks very, very far from a sure thing over the next few years.

[Dick Allen]

Dick:

 

This is more of a rhetorical statement / question.

 

Given the attendance issues particularly the past few years would it really matter if they went to a rebuild instead of a reload philosophy and stated that? Does it really matter if instead of averaging 23 thousand they averaged 18 for the time they were rebuilding? (Especially when you factor in possibly the best lease agreement for the stadium in all of MLB as the Tribune explained in great detail a few months ago)

 

Given the massive revenue streams coming in including from web / internet sources, the former commissioner saying MLB is now a nine billion dollar industry (which is NFL territory) I get the strong sense attendance isn't the "make or break" issue anymore.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mark

 

The big problem is in Chicago, the casual fan has an alternative. Especially now. I don't think the Cubs are quite as great as some people think they are, and face it, they are the Cubs. But with Wrigley Field undergoing a renovation, USCF will be considered "the dump" in Chicago in a couple of years, and if that team is more interesting for a 3 or 4 or 5 year stretch, where the Sox aren't even trying to win, that could set them back like blowing off WGN did many, many years ago.

[Dick Allen]

Here's the problem.

 

"Oh no, the White Sox would never be able to sustain a rebuild. Could imagine what it would do to the fan base if they had like 4 losing seasons out of 5 years?"

 

Yeah, we've already done that. We're going to really pay for it next year based on how terrible the walkup crowds look this eyar. The "rebuilding will destroy this fan base" threat doesn't work when we've done exactly that without any rebuilding and with a roster that looks very, very far from a sure thing over the next few years.

First, there is a big difference between trying to win and failing, and putting a product you know isn't good enough on the field. White Sox attendance will rise this year for the first time since 2006. Walk up crowds were terrible in 2012 when they were in first place most of the year. Walk up crowds are pretty much a thing of the past. They really marketed Buehrle vs. Sale and Sale going for a record and sold 4,000 more seats. That was considered huge. I read somewhere where the biggest day of game sale in 2012 was somewhere around 2,000.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Lip Man 1]

First, there is a big difference between trying to win and failing, and putting a product you know isn't good enough on the field. White Sox attendance will rise this year for the first time since 2006. Walk up crowds were terrible in 2012 when they were in first place most of the year. Walk up crowds are pretty much a thing of the past. They really marketed Buehrle vs. Sale and Sale going for a record and sold 4,000 more seats. That was considered huge. I read somewhere where the biggest day of game sale in 2012 was somewhere around 2,000.

 

I think overall the reason for White Sox "walk-up" issues is the fact that this team has never consistently won. By that I mean making the playoffs three years in a row or stringing together something like six years in eight.

 

The Sox were in first place for three months for example in 2012 but in 2011 when they went "all in" they failed miserably and the team was extremely disliked. Ozzie quitting on the team didn't help matters. In 2010 they had a good chance for the post season before falling apart in August. 2009 was yet another losing year.

 

The White Sox are the only one of the original 16 pre expansion (1961) major league franchises to have never made the playoffs in consecutive seasons.And remember expanded playoffs have been around since 1969.

 

It's hard to get a consistent walk up crowd when you can't even string together winning seasons anymore. Having a good season 'out of the blue' as it were, like in 2012, simply doesn't convince fans to come out. (and given what happened the final three weeks that year showed as Paul Konerko said, that they "knew something".)

 

I know this is off the topic thread but I just wanted to pass my opinion along.

 

Mark

Edited July 21, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[Chisoxfn]

Matheny also doesn't have a passive attitude either. He's a cerebral former catcher with great leadership skills.

Passive attitude has nothing to do with this. He might be smarter or better or any of the other, but facts are facts. He had zero coaching experience prior. Whether being a catcher made him smarter or not could be true, it might not. Point is he had no previous major league experience, but he is widely considered a great manager. I also don't think 1 year or two years as an assistant really does that much either. Being a play for 15 seasons teaches you a lot. One major difference is Matheny came into an organization with a history and a way about doing things and developing players that was proven and successful and in theory inherited that (and was really developed within that philosophy himself). Robin came into one that had made the change to Buddy Bell and his methods but I think we've gotten to a long enough range where we can say that hasn't worked. I think you can say the GM could change that but it means total culture change everywhere and we haven't necessarily had that.

 

If I am the Sox, I look at Gardy who came from an organization with a rather successful track record of building an organizational philosophy built around fundementals and I see if he can help change that culture and instill it. Doesn't mean everyone is fired and it won't change overnight, but you get everyone on the same page from what is hopefully a proven track record of success and you foster and build it.

[Balta1701]

First, there is a big difference between trying to win and failing, and putting a product you know isn't good enough on the field. White Sox attendance will rise this year for the first time since 2006. Walk up crowds were terrible in 2012 when they were in first place most of the year. Walk up crowds are pretty much a thing of the past. They really marketed Buehrle vs. Sale and Sale going for a record and sold 4,000 more seats. That was considered huge. I read somewhere where the biggest day of game sale in 2012 was somewhere around 2,000.

Yes, ticket sales are going to rise this year because, as you noted, people bought into the concept that this team could actually win. As a consequence, they sold a bunch of season tickets. The crowds this year, right in the middle of summer, are terrible unless they have some huge gimmick. They're getting smaller crowds right now, with a solid season ticket sales boost, than they got last year, which means fewer and fewer people are coming to see these games and the only thing keeping the attendance from collapsing through the floor is the several thousand additional season tickets they sold last year. We are getting the worst "summer crowds" for White Sox teams since before the WS and that's with a boost of several thousand season ticket sales over last year. That means the walkup/single game ticket sales are ungodly awful.

 

Do you honestly think that those season ticket sales will come back next year when we can't sell single game tickets right now? The impression I've got is that the fanbase is now somewhere between angry and completely disillusioned. Unless they pull off acquiring mike trout this offseason, even "looking like we might be competitive" isn't going to be enough to un-do the damage done by this season.

 

We took the people who were still interested in white sox baseball, who would have been interested in season tickets but were holding out for a team that they thought could win...and we spat on them. The end result of that is going to be felt next year and it's going to be ugly.

[Flash Tizzle]

Here's the problem.

 

"Oh no, the White Sox would never be able to sustain a rebuild. Could imagine what it would do to the fan base if they had like 4 losing seasons out of 5 years?"

 

Yeah, we've already done that. We're going to really pay for it next year based on how terrible the walkup crowds look this eyar. The "rebuilding will destroy this fan base" threat doesn't work when we've done exactly that without any rebuilding and with a roster that looks very, very far from a sure thing over the next few years.

 

Exactly! Maybe rebuilding won't work, but what we're doing now (some patchwork combination of rebuilding on the fly) hasn't proven itself to be successful either. I feel every passing year we're having the same arguments on Soxtalk about the pitfalls of rebuilding, usually hinging on these ideas: the fan-base will be decimated, and can we trust our organization to identify and develop talent through trades and/or drafting.

 

How the fan base reacts should be irrelevant. They're either not going to support a 80 win team......or not support a 69 win team. Does either record ultimately matter? Floundering around .500 for years on end hasn't proven itself effective at anything other than proving the methods used by KW to assemble his ballclubs have bot produced sustained success. Yes we're all grateful for 2005; but that was a decade ago and it's about time for some new strategies, since im sure the Good Ol Boys Club at the top won't be changing soon.

 

Has anyone else ever thought if maybe we had begun rebuilding in 2010, if we would be in a better position today to compete? If we had only realized then that maybe a new direction should be attempted, there'd atleast be a comparison to draw from. We'd know for sure whether that period of time was successful in developing talent, and ultimately, if the organization was capable of resurging from the depths of the AL central.

 

Let's not waste another five years doing the same damn thing.

[iamshack]

But from the periods you are discussing, they have made changes. Laumann does the draft. Hahn is the GM. Marco Paddy was hired. Ventura is a change. They have done exactly what you are calling for except for one guy, and now, all of a sudden, after a winter of giddiness from Sox fans. Soxfest sellouts, everyone bowing to Hahn, failure happens. Guess what? Now all those moves that couldn't have been more praised by media and the fans, they had nothing to do with Rick Hahn. It clearly was Kenny Williams, the guy that did build the only team that has won in about 100 years, now hasn't a clue, and is forcing Hahn to sign players, and has a gun to JR's head telling him he has to approve the payroll increase. That's fine and dandy, but now let's get back to the facts, which aren't so entertaining. JR was told his team had a lot of holes and was a bit away from contending. JR wanted to win right away and told his guys they needed to do what they could to make that happen. They don't have much they can trade away for anything that helps, but they took that, and got Samardzija. They did the other thing they could do and signed several free agents. This wasn't KW running the ship, this was JR. Maybe KW goes to Toronto or somewhere else this offseason, but he and Hahn did what JR ordered. Baseball, not being like other things in life, sometimes doesn't go as planned no matter how much effort and thought you put into it.

BRAVO! BRAVO!

[Dunt]

Sox fans seem to have little to no sense of what the Sox are trying to do, which is why I made the statement in my column that they have lost credibility with their fan base.

 

As an outside observer, it's hard to find any evidence that the Sox have any sense of what the Sox are trying to do. This 3 year window nonsense from Kenny is comedy fodder everywhere that pays attention to baseball. If they truly believed this was the first year of a World Series competitor, this organization is completely f***ed.

[Dick Allen]

Yes, ticket sales are going to rise this year because, as you noted, people bought into the concept that this team could actually win. As a consequence, they sold a bunch of season tickets. The crowds this year, right in the middle of summer, are terrible unless they have some huge gimmick. They're getting smaller crowds right now, with a solid season ticket sales boost, than they got last year, which means fewer and fewer people are coming to see these games and the only thing keeping the attendance from collapsing through the floor is the several thousand additional season tickets they sold last year. We are getting the worst "summer crowds" for White Sox teams since before the WS and that's with a boost of several thousand season ticket sales over last year. That means the walkup/single game ticket sales are ungodly awful.

 

Do you honestly think that those season ticket sales will come back next year when we can't sell single game tickets right now? The impression I've got is that the fanbase is now somewhere between angry and completely disillusioned. Unless they pull off acquiring mike trout this offseason, even "looking like we might be competitive" isn't going to be enough to un-do the damage done by this season.

 

We took the people who were still interested in white sox baseball, who would have been interested in season tickets but were holding out for a team that they thought could win...and we spat on them. The end result of that is going to be felt next year and it's going to be ugly.

There was over 30k there on Sunday. What was the gimmick?

Let's be like the Pirates and the Cubs and the Royals...the one thing they have in common is being bad a very long time, but between these model franchises, they do have as many championships as the disaster of a franchise on the South Side of Chicago the last 30 years.

 

Tickets were bought months in advance. There isn't going to be announced crowds of 14,000 every night except for the Cubs and Yankees like some suggest.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

There was over 30k there on Sunday. What was the gimmick?

 

 

Tickets were bought months in advance. There isn't going to be announced crowds of 14,000 every night except for the Cubs and Yankees like some suggest.

 

Hell I'd have gone for that.

[Iwritecode]

Here's the problem.

 

"Oh no, the White Sox would never be able to sustain a rebuild. Could imagine what it would do to the fan base if they had like 4 losing seasons out of 5 years?"

 

Yeah, we've already done that. We're going to really pay for it next year based on how terrible the walkup crowds look this eyar. The "rebuilding will destroy this fan base" threat doesn't work when we've done exactly that without any rebuilding and with a roster that looks very, very far from a sure thing over the next few years.

 

Agreed. The attendance already sucks. I'm sure it could go down more but I doubt it would make that much of a difference. Using Cleveland as an example, they lowest they've gotten in the past 15 years is just a hair under 1.4 million. The only playoff appearance they've had recently was a single WC playoff game in 2013. They've been averaging around 1.7 million or so the past 5 years.

 

Being bad and losing a lot certainly doesn't help the attendance, but I don't think it completely decimates it either.

 

 

edit: Quoted the wrong post.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Iwritecode

[Dick Allen]

 

Hell I'd have gone for that.

If you were expecting that un Sunday, you would have been SOL.

[Balta1701]

If you were expecting that un Sunday, you would have been SOL.

They still had a bunch of them in the park, including during the broadcast. They probably also sold "3 game" ticket groupings for those events.

[Dick Allen]

They still had a bunch of them in the park, including during the broadcast. They probably also sold "3 game" ticket groupings for those events.

I went to the games. There wasn't a bunch of them in the park that were noticeable or announced. Dustin Hermanson did surprise a guy who correctly answered jersey numbers and signed a ball. That was it. I was on the Club Level, and the did advertise Carlos May AND Mike Huff signing autographs there on July 31st, so get your club level seats while you can. Other than Hermanson, the only other guy they showed was Pods sitting in a suite. I guess that is a gimmick that could double attendance, but it seems more than far fetched.

[Balta1701]

I went to the games. There wasn't a bunch of them in the park that were noticeable or announced. Dustin Hermanson did surprise a guy who correctly answered jersey numbers and signed a ball. That was it. I was on the Club Level, and the did advertise Carlos May AND Mike Huff signing autographs there on July 31st, so get your club level seats while you can. Other than Hermanson, the only other guy they showed was Pods sitting in a suite. I guess that is a gimmick that could double attendance, but it seems more than far fetched.

Just remember this conversation when we see how terrible the April game attendance looks next year when this season hits the season ticket sale numbers. Next year is going to be UGLY.

[Dick Allen]

Just remember this conversation when we see how terrible the April game attendance looks next year when this season hits the season ticket sale numbers. Next year is going to be UGLY.

Then you can pat yourself on the back for being miserable. The Sox have still won most of their home games, especially when rabbit doesn't show up, and people have fun. I don't think the drop will be as massive as you think. They will rearrange the mix of players, and there will be optimistic people. I have fun most games I attend. Even when the Sox lose.

[The Ginger Kid]

I got the impression that the article was suggesting a wholesale sea-change as an organization, not a hatchet job on Kenny. The facts illustrated don't lie: drop in attendance, inability to produce a consistent winner and a lack of accountability due to a misguided sense of loyalty. Sure, Kenny sits near the top. But the guy who's really responsible is Jerry Reinsdorf. And if he's anything like the old people in my family, the older they are the more difficult change becomes.

 

Great read, Lip

[Lip Man 1]

I got the impression that the article was suggesting a wholesale sea-change as an organization, not a hatchet job on Kenny. The facts illustrated don't lie: drop in attendance, inability to produce a consistent winner and a lack of accountability due to a misguided sense of loyalty. Sure, Kenny sits near the top. But the guy who's really responsible is Jerry Reinsdorf. And if he's anything like the old people in my family, the older they are the more difficult change becomes.

 

Great read, Lip

 

Thanks for the kind words. That is what I was trying to get across...that there needs to be strong consideration given by JR to an organizational change and a change in philosophy.

 

Mark

Edited July 21, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[caulfield12]

This is the one spot that you and I disagree, but I don't think much of what we did necessarily set us back that much. I don't think LaRoche contract decimated the club and I don't think the Melky deal did either, but I suppose that one was more risky given the extra years. I still think you can spin Shark today and get the equivalent of what we gave up (and as I've long said we traded from a surplus given the Semien was the primary chip). In fact, I think we could get more, so one could argue (and none of us were privy to the conversations) that Kenny and Rick told JR, okay, we can try to make a push, give it our best, but whatever we do, we will ensure ourselves we have ability to pivot after this year depending on how things go (as we know this team can only contend if all of these things go right vs. even with x and y going against us, we'll still contend).

 

No point in you and I arguing this back and forth since we both see these differently regarding what the Sox did this off-season. You think it set us back, I happen to have a differing opinion, but that is a seperate argument. None of us know that conversations between JR / Rick / Kenny and what went down and we also don't know strategically what they have in mind, but my presumption is we'll at least find out if our return for Shark exceeds what we gave up (on paper) in the next few days.

 

Who can the White Sox realistically pursue in FA that will improve the team significantly and NOT blow our entire budget on just 1-2 players (Heyward, Gordon, Cespedes).

 

So the question with the Melky contract is did spending that money too early impact our next free agency class?

 

Obviously if he had a crystal ball and signed Morales instead of LaRoche, B.Anderson/Volquez instead of Shark...were in a position to add Puig for Quintana, you'd be much closer to competing and we still would have Semien to start at 2b or 3b, maybe bringing in Cervelli to catch.

 

Lots of what ifs. The problem is that Avi Garcia is closer to a negative than a positive, Melky's more of a complementary player at his best, Abreu's struggling physically and hasn't carried the team like in 2014 (or Quentin in 2008)...and the gaping holes are at premium positions like 3b, SS and C.

 

I'm not so sure we wouldn't be in the same spot if we signed Russell Martin instead of Cabrera/LaRoche because we'd still have had to spend another $25 million on the likesof Lind/Morales/another veteran pitcher.

 

In the end, the Cabrera and Danks contracts are weighing us down...that and wasting money on guys like Beckham and Bonifacio when it would have been better to play Saladino, Micah and Sanchez the whole season at the big league level and see what we had at the end of the year. At this point, nobody could say with certainty any of those players should be penciled in as starters for next season, other than Micah Johnson since he's still the most likely impact player of the three.

Edited July 21, 2015 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Also, in hindsight, it's going to be fairly ridiculous to pay Robertson elite closer money for at least 2/4 years when we're not even close...

 

There are a ton of guys out there like Melancon, Grilli, K Rod, Casilla, Boxberger, Soria and Uehara who wouldn't have been up there in Robertson/Miller territory.

 

There's no doubt that spending money too early on Robertson, Cabrera and then the Danks deal aren't preventing another huge push this coming offseason.

[LDF]

Who can the White Sox realistically pursue in FA that will improve the team significantly and NOT blow our entire budget on just 1-2 players (Heyward, Gordon, Cespedes).

 

So the question with the Melky contract is did spending that money too early impact our next free agency class?

 

Obviously if he had a crystal ball and signed Morales instead of LaRoche, B.Anderson/Volquez instead of Shark...were in a position to add Puig for Quintana, you'd be much closer to competing and we still would have Semien to start at 2b or 3b, maybe bringing in Cervelli to catch.

 

Lots of what ifs. The problem is that Avi Garcia is closer to a negative than a positive, Melky's more of a complementary player at his best, Abreu's struggling physically and hasn't carried the team like in 2014 (or Quentin in 2008)...and the gaping holes are at premium positions like 3b, SS and C.

 

I'm not so sure we wouldn't be in the same spot if we signed Russell Martin instead of Cabrera/LaRoche because we'd still have had to spend another $25 million on the likesof Lind/Morales/another veteran pitcher.

 

In the end, the Cabrera and Danks contracts are weighing us down...that and wasting money on guys like Beckham and Bonifacio when it would have been better to play Saladino, Micah and Sanchez the whole season at the big league level and see what we had at the end of the year. At this point, nobody could say with certainty any of those players should be penciled in as starters for next season, other than Micah Johnson since he's still the most likely impact player of the three.

 

just coming in now..... i didn't have time before.

 

Melky stat - june 270+ avg, july 303 avg. he is starting to hit like many expected him.

Danks contract was inherited there is nothing that can be done about that.

Adam LaRoche - why wasn't he added to the list???

 

the only what if, i have is the additional pitching, Anderson / Volquez, both of which i wanted in dec.

 

Beckham moved paid off, much to my surprise. but then i am saying a person who is hitting a sub 200.

Boni i am totally surprise on him.... my only lame excuse is he wasn't handle right. but that is grasping.

 

next yr, it is really going to take a smart gm to do this right. whomever is making the decisions.

[caulfield12]

just coming in now..... i didn't have time before.

 

Melky stat - june 270+ avg, july 303 avg. he is starting to hit like many expected him.

Danks contract was inherited there is nothing that can be done about that.

Adam LaRoche - why wasn't he added to the list???

 

the only what if, i have is the additional pitching, Anderson / Volquez, both of which i wanted in dec.

 

Beckham moved paid off, much to my surprise. but then i am saying a person who is hitting a sub 200.

Boni i am totally surprise on him.... my only lame excuse is he wasn't handle right. but that is grasping.

 

next yr, it is really going to take a smart gm to do this right. whomever is making the decisions.

 

With KaRoche, only a two year deal and we're going to be hard pressed to compete next season as we've been discussing for 2-3 months now.

[LDF]

With KaRoche, only a two year deal and we're going to be hard pressed to compete next season as we've been discussing for 2-3 months now.

 

i guess i didn't fully write out my thoughts on that.

 

with LaRoche, the sox are stuck. no moves what so ever. i even doubt the owners will try to eat his contract. so will the sox pay someone for 15 mil to sit on the bench??? no, he will get his swipes in.

[caulfield12]

i guess i didn't fully write out my thoughts on that.

 

with LaRoche, the sox are stuck. no moves what so ever. i even doubt the owners will try to eat his contract. so will the sox pay someone for 15 mil to sit on the bench??? no, he will get his swipes in.

 

They essentially did the same thing with Dunn...with the only difference being they won't have to wait 3+ years to dump him in July/August of 2016.