Two Sobering Articles...

[Lip Man 1]

Don't know if anybody has seen these two articles that came out today. I've included the links to them.

 

After reading them the conclusion I come to is that this franchise is in deep, deep trouble.

 

In trouble from a competitive standpoint, in trouble from an attendance standpoint, in trouble from a rating / viewer standpoint and in trouble from a perception / relevance standpoint. (Notice however I didn't say from a financial standpoint...) Overall it appears to me this franchise hasn't been this bad off since the late 80's when they were threatening to move to Florida.

 

Just look where the Sox rank TV-wise in the two graphs:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/new-numbers...n-not-imminent/

 

"This isn’t just a bad group of position players, it is arguably one of the worst collections of position players ever assembled."

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-impress...te-sox-offense/

 

Mark

Edited July 24, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[Chisoxfn]

I really am not surprised that our position players rank that poorly. It is also why I have struggled to see how Sox management can't make moves to enhance the lineup and focus on getting new young talent (and not be worried about contending for the rest of the season). I also think being this bad (even though in some cases, I expect more reversion to the mean by the end of the year) is why we need to move some assets on the pitching side to try and change the position dynamic and that means dealing from our strength's (one of Q / Sale).

 

When it comes to ratings, I'm about as big of a fan as I can get and to be frank, I can't stand to watch this team. I often find myself get so frustrated by their poor fundamentals that I just turn the game off.

[Lip Man 1]

I really am not surprised that our position players rank that poorly. It is also why I have struggled to see how Sox management can't make moves to enhance the lineup and focus on getting new young talent (and not be worried about contending for the rest of the season). I also think being this bad (even though in some cases, I expect more reversion to the mean by the end of the year) is why we need to move some assets on the pitching side to try and change the position dynamic and that means dealing from our strength's (one of Q / Sale).

 

When it comes to ratings, I'm about as big of a fan as I can get and to be frank, I can't stand to watch this team. I often find myself get so frustrated by their poor fundamentals that I just turn the game off.

 

Chisox:

 

I have no inside knowledge but I think the Sox would very much like to make some moves. The thing is though, you need two to make a deal and frankly they just may not have a lot that anybody else wants (Assuming of course based on an article I read last week I think in the Sun-Times that Sale and Jose were basically "untouchable..."

 

Pitching to me is the single most important (and rare) aspect to the game today so I can see why the Sox would be reluctant to do that.

 

However as you point out, they are between a rock and a hard place, the only way to get good positional talent may force them to have to move pitching. (Which could create more holes...)

 

A decade (or more) of neglecting the farm system and being unwilling to spend money on it is now coming home to roost.

 

Mark

[LDF]

Don't know if anybody has seen these two articles that came out today. I've included the links to them.

 

After reading them the conclusion I come to is that this franchise is in deep, deep trouble.

 

In trouble from a competitive standpoint, in trouble from an attendance standpoint, in trouble from a rating / viewer standpoint and in trouble from a perception / relevance standpoint. (Notice however I didn't say from a financial standpoint...) Overall it appears to me this franchise hasn't been this bad off since the late 80's when they were threatening to move to Florida.

 

Just look where the Sox rank TV-wise in the two graphs:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/new-numbers...n-not-imminent/

 

"This isn’t just a bad group of position players, it is arguably one of the worst collections of position players ever assembled."

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-impress...te-sox-offense/

 

Mark

 

many thanks....

 

i am surprise that there was some sort of info on all this.

 

pretty much what many on this site has biitched about.

 

[LDF]

I really am not surprised that our position players rank that poorly. It is also why I have struggled to see how Sox management can't make moves to enhance the lineup and focus on getting new young talent (and not be worried about contending for the rest of the season). I also think being this bad (even though in some cases, I expect more reversion to the mean by the end of the year) is why we need to move some assets on the pitching side to try and change the position dynamic and that means dealing from our strength's (one of Q / Sale).

 

When it comes to ratings, I'm about as big of a fan as I can get and to be frank, I can't stand to watch this team. I often find myself get so frustrated by their poor fundamentals that I just turn the game off.

 

who really want to see this continue b/s that is fielded and the lack of motivational that affects their skills.

[LDF]

Chisox:

 

I have no inside knowledge but I think the Sox would very much like to make some moves. The thing is though, you need two to make a deal and frankly they just may not have a lot that anybody else wants (Assuming of course based on an article I read last week I think in the Sun-Times that Sale and Jose were basically "untouchable..."

 

Pitching to me is the single most important (and rare) aspect to the game today so I can see why the Sox would be reluctant to do that.

 

However as you point out, they are between a rock and a hard place, the only way to get good positional talent may force them to have to move pitching. (Which could create more holes...)

 

A decade (or more) of neglecting the farm system and being unwilling to spend money on it is now coming home to roost.

 

Mark

 

however if their asking price is toooo outlandish to be called ridiculous....

 

[Butter Parque]

They've been unwatchable since game 1. How could you blame fans for not wasting 3 hours a night on this?

[LDF]

They've been unwatchable since game 1. How could you blame fans for not wasting 3 hours a night on this?

 

 

i still give the season tickets holder credit for going to their games.....

[Hatchetman]

Clearly its the inherently poor character of White Sox fans that is the root of all the problems.

[LDF]

Clearly its the inherently poor character of White Sox fans that is the root of all the problems.

 

having grown up a sox fan since the 60's.... i have heard this many times and ok i agree.....

 

and a typical response from any sox fa would be...... so, deal with it.

 

[Soxfest]

They've been unwatchable since game 1. How could you blame fans for not wasting 3 hours a night on this?

Sox have lost the casual fan in Chicago for good. I am a diehard I watch no matter what, but most people have no interest in the Sox.

[LDF]

Sox have lost the casual fan in Chicago for good. I am a diehard I watch no matter what, but most people have no interest in the Sox.

 

i don't know about that.... put a winning team and things will chg.

 

the sox recipe is ok, it is faith...... but here is the owners counting the money they are making this yr as oppose to last yr.

 

now.... we will try to get better next yr.... many trades can happen, but who knows.

 

money counting continue.

[Balta1701]

Pitching to me is the single most important (and rare) aspect to the game today so I can see why the Sox would be reluctant to do that.

I'm just not sure this is true in this era any more. Even average, cost-controlled position players are starting to look like all-stars. Guys I barely wanted 5-6 years ago are now legit AS starters, while guys who today are top 10 Cy Young award people have stuff that seems like it would blow peak Johan Santana out of the water.

[Thad Bosley]

Clearly its the inherently poor character of White Sox fans that is the root of all the problems.

It's this schmickle fickle klickle fan base of ours, dontcha know. They will make any excuse - ANY! - not to watch or attend bad baseball. What's wrong with them!

[Jose Abreu]

If people don't want to watch the Sox, then just don't watch them. We're better off without fair-weather fans. Just don't come back when we start winning.

[Butter Parque]

If people don't want to watch the Sox, then just don't watch them. We're better off without fair-weather fans. Just don't come back when we start winning.

 

 

when the hell is that going to be?

I have absolutely no faith in the hierearchy of this organization.

 

Perhaps when the team is sold, KW has moved on to becoming a featured husband on a future rendition of "Real Housewives of Chicago", Buddy Bell is hooked up to a transfusion tree, betting jai alai in Boca Raton, and Rick Hahn has transitioned to his inevitable position as a Fossil Fuel lobbyist on K Street. Maybe thats when I'll begin to have some faith.

[caulfield12]

I wonder if there's a close correspondence with the radio ratings?

 

While the inferior product on the field is always the biggest consideration, number two might be the divisive presence of Hawk Harrelson.

 

1) Older White Sox fans might enjoy Harrelson more, but they're dying out...that generation of fans who grew up with Sox fandom in the 1950s and 60s.

 

2) The sandwich generation has moved on after the World Series title to getting married and raising their kids.

 

3) The World Series presented an opportunity in 2005-06 to capitalize on drawing a new younger generation of kids to Sox fandom but the organization clearly didn't capitalize on the opportunity and their interest was also drawn to the BlackHawks. These young fans perhaps don't enjoy grumpy/umpire conspiracy Harrelson as much, and don't get his historical references or golf tangents.

 

4) Young positional prospects (see Cubs) are generally more exciting for fans (and offense, in general) than building an arsenal of arms.

Edited July 25, 2015 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

If people don't want to watch the Sox, then just don't watch them. We're better off without fair-weather fans. Just don't come back when we start winning.

 

Jose:

 

Like them or not, you've got to have them to spin the turnstiles and fork over their money. That's the difference between having a major budget for a major market team and not having the chance to sign a lot of guys that you need.

 

Mark

[oldsox]

Phillies much are worse. Maybe Boston, too. And the Sox had some really bad teams in 60's and 70's, much worse than today's club.

[knightni]

Phillies much are worse. Maybe Boston, too. And the Sox had some really bad teams in 60's and 70's, much worse than today's club.

Some bad teams in the late '80s as well.

[Lip Man 1]

Phillies much are worse. Maybe Boston, too. And the Sox had some really bad teams in 60's and 70's, much worse than today's club.

 

That's true but they were never that irrelevant in their own market. John Allyn made the drastic changes that were needed in September 1970 after the disasters of 68 and 69 to change the direction of the franchise and by 1972 they were a contender.

 

And Bill Veeck despite his issues (and he had many) at least was always cooking up crazy things to keep the fans / media interested in the team even with four losing seasons in the five years he owned them.

 

If you look at the totality of the situation (save for the financial side - all MLB teams are rolling in money) the Sox are in a bad state right now. I talked about some of the issues in my column "Loyalty without Accountability..."

 

Attendance has dropped eight straight years, TV ratings are rock bottom, the media by and large could care less. Now throw in the Cubs who look like they have an actual future. The Sox keep stumbling around, getting in their own way, talking about "three year windows," and can't seem to right the ship.

 

That's a dangerous state to be in, in my opinion.

 

Mark

 

[Lip Man 1]

Phillies much are worse. Maybe Boston, too.

 

Two big differences between those franchises and the White Sox in my opinion.

 

1. Both have won World Series more recently than the White Sox. Their fan base hasn't reached the point that by and large the Sox fan base has.

 

2. Both are the "only game in town." No other team in their market baseball-wise taking away the casual fans and their dollars or generating positive publicity. Phillies and Red Sox still draw pretty well, much better than the White Sox who last I looked were 27th or 28th in MLB. (That may have changed recently as they drew well for the Royals series because of the 2005 reunion and the Cardinals who brought a ton of fans with them...)

 

Mark

[caulfield12]

Two big differences between those franchises and the White Sox in my opinion.

 

1. Both have won World Series more recently than the White Sox. Their fan base hasn't reached the point that by and large the Sox fan base has.

 

2. Both are the "only game in town." No other team in their market baseball-wise taking away the casual fans and their dollars or generating positive publicity. Phillies and Red Sox still draw pretty well, much better than the White Sox who last I looked were 27th or 28th in MLB. (That may have changed recently as they drew well for the Royals series because of the 2005 reunion and the Cardinals who brought a ton of fans with them...)

 

Mark

 

They were barely in 26th.

 

Right now, you'd have to say they're in a better position than Oakland (unless a new stadium or relocation), Cleveland, Tampa and Miami.

 

You could argue the Mariners as well, but they just got that huge injection of money from a new regional broadcasting rights deal. That Cano deal will be a killer, and Nelson Cruz in another year or so.

 

Arizona is in a comparable position, the Rockies and Padres (read the AJ Preller article and imagine SoxTalk after a series of moves that dubious and short-sighted) as well.

 

The Brewers also have a pretty bleak future, although they draw much better. Atlanta's in a holding pattern but with a new stadium on the way.

Edited July 25, 2015 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

If people don't want to watch the Sox, then just don't watch them. We're better off without fair-weather fans. Just don't come back when we start winning.

 

Don't say that. You'll hurt everyone's feelings who thinks they are the greatest fans ever.

[spiderman]

Don't know if anybody has seen these two articles that came out today. I've included the links to them.

 

After reading them the conclusion I come to is that this franchise is in deep, deep trouble.

 

In trouble from a competitive standpoint, in trouble from an attendance standpoint, in trouble from a rating / viewer standpoint and in trouble from a perception / relevance standpoint. (Notice however I didn't say from a financial standpoint...) Overall it appears to me this franchise hasn't been this bad off since the late 80's when they were threatening to move to Florida.

 

Just look where the Sox rank TV-wise in the two graphs:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/new-numbers...n-not-imminent/

 

"This isn’t just a bad group of position players, it is arguably one of the worst collections of position players ever assembled."

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-impress...te-sox-offense/

 

Mark

 

The offense is so bad, it's hard to sit here and pretend that everyone is just having a down season, etc; the entire IF outside of 1B is in need of an overhaul and the OF is probably not going to change. It's just hard to see this team getting much better in the near future without adding 2 impact players (IF positions) to the middle of the lineup.