Dave Dombrowski hired by the Red Sox

[SoxAce]

Would love to have his baseball mind with us. Doubt it happens though. Glad he got out of that ownership mess in Detroit though.

Edited August 5, 2015 by SoxAce

[Lip Man 1]

Why is that a putz move? Seems to me you should be applauding having nothing to do with a guy who was groome dby a guy who was the GM through 15 playoff less seasons leaving his minor league system in shambles.

 

You so blind with the JR hate, even if he does what you want you moan about it.

 

Roland Hemond took over the worst franchise in major league baseball in September 1970. There were worse off then even the expansion teams. They had one foot in the grave and the other in Milwaukee.They had gone through the three worst seasons in franchise history, Comiskey Park was falling apart, they drew 495,000 for the season in 1970 and had very little talent.

 

In two years they won 87 games in a strike shortened season and as Chuck Tanner told me, if Bill Melton doesn't blow out his back the A's dynasty never happens.

 

Hemond build the 72 team, the 77 team and the 83 team.

 

And he did it without any money as Allyn and Veeck were broke.

 

Regarding the minor league system this quote from Veeck to Roland says it all, "sign him for as little as you can, we don't have any money..."

 

And here's another one. Did you know (if not you can read about it Friday) Fernando was down to the Dodgers and the White Sox? He went to the Dodgers because they offered 20 (as in twenty) thousand dollars more.

 

Oh here's yet one more. Hemond had to trade All Star catcher Ed Herrmann in April 1975 to the Yankees because he wanted a 2 (as in two) thousand dollar raise. The Sox couldn't afford to give it to him.

 

Given those circumstances Hemond is one of the three best G.M.'s in franchise history in my opinion.

 

I would have loved to have had Dombrowski as G.M. for most of these past seasons.

 

Mark

Edited August 5, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[caulfield12]

Roland Hemond took over the worst franchise in major league baseball in September 1970. There were worse off then even the expansion teams. They had gone through the three worst seasons in franchise history, Comiskey Park was falling apart, they drew 495,000 for the season in 1970 and had very little talent.

 

In two years they won 87 games in a strike shortened season and as Chuck Tanner told me, if Bill Melton doesn't blow out his back the A's dynasty never happens.

 

Hemond build the 72 team, the 77 team and the 83 team.

 

And he did it without any money as Allyn and Veeck were broke.

 

Regarding the minor league system this quote from Veeck to Roland says it all, "sign him for as little as you can, we don't have any money..."

 

And here's another one. Did you know (if not you can read about it Friday) Fernando was down to the Dodgers and the White Sox? He went to the Dodgers because they offered 20 (as in twenty) thousand dollars more.

 

Oh here's yet one more. Hemond had to trade All Star catcher Ed Herrmann in April 1975 to the Yankees because he wanted a 2 (as in two) thousand dollar raise. The Sox couldn't afford to give it to him.

 

Given those circumstances Hemond is one of the three best G.M.'s in franchise history in my opinion.

 

I would have loved to have had Dombrowski as G.M. for most of these past seasons.

 

Mark

 

Amen. There's more to assessing managers and GM's than overall records or playoff appearances.

 

Anyone who can consistently build the best farm system working for the Expos...and then turn around and succeed despite Huizenga and John Henry deserves a Medal of Honor.

 

He was smart enough to get out of Miami before Loria arrived, but did miss the second World Series title come to fruition as a result.

[caulfield12]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/2015/08/...litch/31138765/

 

Free Press sportswriter takes the Ilitches to task...

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/i...s-end-of-an-era

Chrstina Kahrl opinion

 

Jeff Passan

Last year a Brown student named Lewis Pollis wrote his senior thesis on just how undervalued front-office personnel truly are. The paper starts off with a stunning claim: one standard deviation of a GM's ability to find players is worth nearly eight wins above replacement – or more than $50 million a year. Essentially, Pollis wrote, a great GM can have almost as big of an impact annually as Mike Trout.

 

Pollis estimated the value between the best and worst free-agent buyers (San Francisco's Brian Sabean on top and ex-Baltimore GM Jim Beattie at the bottom) at nearly $43 million a year, and that's to say nothing of their abilities to pull off trades or draft and develop.

 

Granted, Pollis' numbers pegged Dombrowski below average, dragged down by the 119-loss season as well as other rebuilding projects he took over. In reality, those only strengthened his reputation. He can come into a strong situation and make it stronger. He can come into a dumpster fire and hose it into tranquility. Dombrowski's standing among executives is unparalleled.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-dave-domb...-230836111.html

 

 

http://sabr.org/sites/default/files/Pollis..._It-2014-04.pdf

Page 68-69 has the ratings. Hahn was average, KW in the bottom quartile and Neal Huntington, Dayton Moore, Randy Smith, John Hart, Dean Taylor and Jim Beattie as the six worst.

 

Ed Lynch and Dan Evans both fared surprisingly well, as did Omar Minaya.

Edited August 5, 2015 by caulfield12

[LDF]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/2015/08/...litch/31138765/

 

Free Press sportswriter takes the Ilitches to task...

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/i...s-end-of-an-era

Chrstina Kahrl opinion

 

Jeff Passan

Last year a Brown student named Lewis Pollis wrote his senior thesis on just how undervalued front-office personnel truly are. The paper starts off with a stunning claim: one standard deviation of a GM's ability to find players is worth nearly eight wins above replacement – or more than $50 million a year. Essentially, Pollis wrote, a great GM can have almost as big of an impact annually as Mike Trout.

 

Pollis estimated the value between the best and worst free-agent buyers (San Francisco's Brian Sabean on top and ex-Baltimore GM Jim Beattie at the bottom) at nearly $43 million a year, and that's to say nothing of their abilities to pull off trades or draft and develop.

 

Granted, Pollis' numbers pegged Dombrowski below average, dragged down by the 119-loss season as well as other rebuilding projects he took over. In reality, those only strengthened his reputation. He can come into a strong situation and make it stronger. He can come into a dumpster fire and hose it into tranquility. Dombrowski's standing among executives is unparalleled.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-dave-domb...-230836111.html

 

 

http://sabr.org/sites/default/files/Pollis..._It-2014-04.pdf

Page 68-69 has the ratings. Hahn was average, KW in the bottom quartile and Neal Huntington, Dayton Moore, Randy Smith, John Hart, Dean Taylor and Jim Beattie as the six worst.

 

Ed Lynch and Dan Evans both fared surprisingly well, as did Omar Minaya.

 

excellent find.

 

i was surprise on Hahn and houston gm.

 

but i wasn't on KW. his ranking the right there for all to see.

 

[caulfield12]

excellent find.

 

i was surprise on Hahn and houston gm.

 

but i wasn't on KW. his ranking the right there for all to see.

 

As noted, Dombrowski inherited a 119 loss team...which had an adverse effect on his rating.

 

Huntington has built the Pirates into a perennial contender, as has Moore with the Royals. Hart was considered one of the visionary GMs in the game with the Indians in the 90s. He invented the idea of buying out fa years with their young stsr players.

 

At any rate, DD will likely be the first GM/team president to near a $10 million per year salary.

[Dick Allen]

Amen. There's more to assessing managers and GM's than overall records or playoff appearances.

 

Anyone who can consistently build the best farm system working for the Expos...and then turn around and succeed despite Huizenga and John Henry deserves a Medal of Honor.

 

He was smart enough to get out of Miami before Loria arrived, but did miss the second World Series title come to fruition as a result.

 

 

You will now be held to this. LMAO. Let's see in how many posts you contradict this statement, just today. You already did in your very next post in the same thread.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

You will now be held to this. LMAO. Pick a side .

 

So you're for KW, you're for Hahn...or simply against KW being blamed for everything falling apart when those same offseason moves by Hahn were universally praised as brilliant, winner of the offseason, etc.?

 

Still not seeing what your basic position is, other than arguing with everyone about virtually everything just to play the Devil's Advocate.

 

Other than defending Beckham, Danks, Ventura and Ubaldo Jimenez from criticism, that is.

[Dick Allen]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/2015/08/...litch/31138765/

 

Free Press sportswriter takes the Ilitches to task...

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/i...s-end-of-an-era

Chrstina Kahrl opinion

 

Jeff Passan

Last year a Brown student named Lewis Pollis wrote his senior thesis on just how undervalued front-office personnel truly are. The paper starts off with a stunning claim: one standard deviation of a GM's ability to find players is worth nearly eight wins above replacement – or more than $50 million a year. Essentially, Pollis wrote, a great GM can have almost as big of an impact annually as Mike Trout.

 

Pollis estimated the value between the best and worst free-agent buyers (San Francisco's Brian Sabean on top and ex-Baltimore GM Jim Beattie at the bottom) at nearly $43 million a year, and that's to say nothing of their abilities to pull off trades or draft and develop.

 

Granted, Pollis' numbers pegged Dombrowski below average, dragged down by the 119-loss season as well as other rebuilding projects he took over. In reality, those only strengthened his reputation. He can come into a strong situation and make it stronger. He can come into a dumpster fire and hose it into tranquility. Dombrowski's standing among executives is unparalleled.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-dave-domb...-230836111.html

 

 

http://sabr.org/sites/default/files/Pollis..._It-2014-04.pdf

Page 68-69 has the ratings. Hahn was average, KW in the bottom quartile and Neal Huntington, Dayton Moore, Randy Smith, John Hart, Dean Taylor and Jim Beattie as the six worst.

 

Ed Lynch and Dan Evans both fared surprisingly well, as did Omar Minaya.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 4, 2015 -> 11:06 PM) *

 

Amen. There's more to assessing managers and GM's than overall records or playoff appearances.

 

When assessing DD, with the $356 million still guaranteed to Verlander and Miggy come into play down the line when Detroit sucks for many, many years?

Edited August 5, 2015 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 4, 2015 -> 11:06 PM) *

 

Amen. There's more to assessing managers and GM's than overall records or playoff appearances.

 

When assessing DD, with the $356 million still guaranteed to Verlander and Miggy come into play down the line when Detroit sucks for many, many years?

 

Who told him to give out those deals to keep his beloved Tigers in the fold?

 

Mike Ilitch.

 

 

Who told him it would cost Max Scherzer, not being able to resign David Price, Porcello, Fister, etc.

 

Dave Dombrowski

 

If there's one area to get on DD, it's the bullpen circus since 2006 with the likes of Valverde, Rodney and Nathan.

 

 

Dombrowski's departure will appease those demanding a pound of flesh for the starting pitching and bullpen deficiencies. But the biggest decisions made over the last three years – Prince Fielder's outrageous free agent contract and locking up Justin Verlander and Miguel Cabrera to high-priced extensions a year before they hit free agency – weren't made on a general manager's whim.

[caulfield12]

I doubt Dombrowski agrees with the assessment of "some success." Three AL Championship Series and one World Series in the last four years isn't "some" success. That's pretty hard to do.

 

Maybe he didn't feel appreciated. Maybe he wanted a mega-deal (at 59, it may be his last big payday). Ilitch said he released Dombrowski in part to let him pursue other opportunities. I'll tell you this: He'll have no shortage of suitors. Plenty of major league teams would love four straight years of playoffs, even if they don't come home with a ring.

 

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnis...litch/31146965/

Mitch Albom column

 

[harfman77]

The guy is in his 80s and he knows the clock is tickng. That is one thing people miss about JR. I think he is 78, and most of his investors are the same age or older. They don't want to invest 3 or 4 or 5 years in a totsl rebuild with no guarantee it will work. I think they wiill be doing a mini Illich trying to get back to contention.

 

I think they are going to try and pump the team in contention, but with the goal of selling the team at peak value more than anything else. JR has said that he prefers ownership of the basketball franchise over baseball, and it is near time that they start looking at liquidating, especially now that JR lost his whipping boy Bud as commish. I think that by 2020 the Sox are under new ownership.

[harfman77]

I doubt Dombrowski agrees with the assessment of "some success." Three AL Championship Series and one World Series in the last four years isn't "some" success. That's pretty hard to do.

 

Maybe he didn't feel appreciated. Maybe he wanted a mega-deal (at 59, it may be his last big payday). Ilitch said he released Dombrowski in part to let him pursue other opportunities. I'll tell you this: He'll have no shortage of suitors. Plenty of major league teams would love four straight years of playoffs, even if they don't come home with a ring.

 

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnis...litch/31146965/

Mitch Albom column

 

 

I would not be surprised to see him land in Boston as Lucchinos replacement.

[Dick Allen]

Who told him to give out those deals to keep his beloved Tigers in the fold?

 

Mike Ilitch.

 

 

Who told him it would cost Max Scherzer, not being able to resign David Price, Porcello, Fister, etc.

 

Dave Dombrowski

 

If there's one area to get on DD, it's the bullpen circus since 2006 with the likes of Valverde, Rodney and Nathan.

 

 

Dombrowski's departure will appease those demanding a pound of flesh for the starting pitching and bullpen deficiencies. But the biggest decisions made over the last three years – Prince Fielder's outrageous free agent contract and locking up Justin Verlander and Miguel Cabrera to high-priced extensions a year before they hit free agency – weren't made on a general manager's whim.

Yet you want to give him credit for what went on with the Marlins. Allowing him to spend the money was a big reason for his success. Wasn't signing free agents and then dumping them on the owner as well?

 

 

[Dick Allen]

I doubt Dombrowski agrees with the assessment of "some success." Three AL Championship Series and one World Series in the last four years isn't "some" success. That's pretty hard to do.

 

Maybe he didn't feel appreciated. Maybe he wanted a mega-deal (at 59, it may be his last big payday). Ilitch said he released Dombrowski in part to let him pursue other opportunities. I'll tell you this: He'll have no shortage of suitors. Plenty of major league teams would love four straight years of playoffs, even if they don't come home with a ring.

 

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnis...litch/31146965/

Mitch Albom column

You don't judge GM's by records and titles. You already told us that.

 

LMAO. How many times will you contradict your statement in this thread?

 

Also, what is the state of the Detroit farm system, and how many homegrown players do they have contributing to wins? Seems he is KW like with his prospects. 6 top ten picks in his tenure, Verlander stuck, the other 5 he traded away. He basically is KW with a bigger budget.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

You don't judge GM's by records and titles. You already told us that.

 

LMAO. How many times will you contradict your statement in this thread?

 

Also, what is the state of the Detroit farm system, and how many homegrown players do they have contributing to wins? Seems he is KW like with his prospects. 6 top ten picks in his tenure, Verlander stuck, the other 5 he traded away. He basically is KW with a bigger budget.

 

By playoff appearances or World Series wins alone...

 

He traded Maybin and Miller for Cabrera...a move that KW tried to pull off but couldn't. Dumb trade. Idiotic. Perfect comparison with a typical KW move, though.

 

Do you really expect to win an argument that DD is the same as KW with four consecutive AL Central titles, 3 ALCS, two World Series....that's not even counting 1997.

 

Who do you think was beating the Cubs in 2003? Remember Josh Beckett and all of the young arms they accumulated? Who do you think did that?

 

Who do you think had the Expos with the best record in baseball in 1994, again, largely with all the players he developed in that system before leaving in 1991 for the Marlins.

 

 

 

While Dombrowski didn't deliver a title, he did deliver a team that had it within reach during its recent four-year run, losing in the American League Championship Series in 2011 and 2013, and the World Series in 2012; that's on top of an AL pennant won in 2006. He acquired some of the best talent of a generation to make it possible, trading for Miguel Cabrera and Max Scherzer. He presided over some outstanding drafts, the best of which was Justin Verlander, but also producing useful talents such as Curtis Granderson, Rick Porcello, Andrew Miller, Alex Avila, Matt Joyce and Cameron Maybin. On Dombrowski's watch, the Tigers became more than just a going concern, they became a model franchise.

 

He also picked up JD Martinez on waivers and got the best of the Iglesias/Avi Garcia swap. Signing Victor Martinez with the White Sox getting Dunn turned out to be another huge twist of fate for both franchises.

 

 

 

Robin Ventura is simply Jim Leyland with less talent to work with....

Edited August 5, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

By playoff appearances alone...

 

He traded Maybin and Miller for Cabrera...a move that KW pulled off but couldn't. Dumb trade. Idiotic. Perfect comparison with typical KW move, though.

 

Do you really expect to win an argument that DD is the same as KW with four consecutive AL Central titles, 3 ALCS, two World Series....that's not even counting 1997.

Who do you think was beating the Cubs in 2003? Remember Josh Beckett and all of the young arms they accumulated? Who do you think did that?

 

Who do you think had the Expos with the best record in baseball in 1994, again, largely will the players he developed in that system before leaving in 1991 for the Marlins.

 

 

 

While Dombrowski didn't deliver a title, he did deliver a team that had it within reach during its recent four-year run, losing in the American League Championship Series in 2011 and 2013, and the World Series in 2012; that's on top of an AL pennant won in 2006. He acquired some of the best talent of a generation to make it possible, trading for Miguel Cabrera and Max Scherzer. He presided over some outstanding drafts, the best of which was Justin Verlander, but also producing useful talents such as Curtis Granderson, Rick Porcello, Andrew Miller, Alex Avila, Matt Joyce and Cameron Maybin. On Dombrowski's watch, the Tigers became more than just a going concern, they became a model franchise.

 

He also picked up JD Martinez on waivers and got the best of the Iglesias/Avi Garcia swap.

 

 

 

Robin Ventura is simply Jim Leyland with less talent to work with....

 

Again, you told us in this thread you can't judge managers and GMs by playoff appearances and records.

 

 

In 14 years if other than Verlander the best the farm produces is:

 

Curtis Granderson, Rick Porcello, Andrew Miller, Alex Avila, Matt Joyce and Cameron Maybin

 

 

it's really not very good. Certainly not franchise changing like trading 2 months of Samardjiza would have been. LMAO.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

Again, you told us in this thread you can't judge managers and GMs by playoff appearances and records.

 

 

In 14 years if other than Verlander the best the farm produces is:

 

Curtis Granderson, Rick Porcello, Andrew Miller, Alex Avila, Matt Joyce and Cameron Maybin

 

 

it's really not very good.

 

 

Other than Chris Sale, the White Sox have done what exactly....it's definitely not very good.

 

KW proved he could run out of pieces to land a Cabrera well enough, or a Max Scherzer.

 

 

We turned Edwin Jackson into....some dudes from Toronto. The Tigers traded Jackson for who would become one of the five best pitchers in baseball, Max Scherzer.

 

That's really good. Victor Martinez over Adam Dunn, also pretty good.

 

If only JR was rich enough, the White Sox could have done the same thing.....and averaged well over 30,000 fans per game for over a decade.

 

Brilliant.

 

Tell KW to spend another $50-100 million, all our problems will be solved.

Edited August 5, 2015 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Other than Chris Sale, the White Sox have done what exactly....it's definitely not very good.

 

KW proved he could run out of pieces to land a Cabrera well enough, or a Max Scherzer.

 

 

We turned Edwin Jackson into....some dudes from Toronto. The Tigers traded Jackson for who would become one of the five best pitchers in baseball, Max Scherzer.

 

That's really good. Victor Martinez over Adam Dunn, also pretty good.

 

If only JR was rich enough, the White Sox could have done the same thing.....and averaged well over 30,000 fans per game for over a decade.

 

Brilliant.

 

Tell KW to spend another $50-100 million, all our problems will be solved.

Get off the KW ran out of pieces to land Cabrera bandwagon that you hopped on after an erroneous post as to why the White Sox didn't get him. Besides that was 2 years after KW foolishly gave up prospects for guys like Freddy Garcia and wound up winning a WS, something DD failed to do in Detroit.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Get off the KW ran out of pieces to land Cabrera bandwagon that you hopped on after an erroneous post as to why the White Sox didn't get him. Besides that was 2 years after KW foolishly gave up prospects for guys like Freddy Garcia and wound up winning a WS, something DD failed to do in Detroit.

 

 

So John Schuerholz was only equal to KW despite 14 consecutive playoff appearances?

 

Why do we even need Hahn then?

 

Erroneous post? We didn't get him simply because JR didn't want a bad contract in Dontrelle Willis, and Maybin/Miller were both more highly ranked than any prospects in our system at that time.

 

 

This is like KW saying Robin Ventura almost won Manager of the Year in 2012....making comparisons with DD and Williams.

Well, we could have made the playoffs in 2003, 2006, 2010 and 2012. Great almost job!

 

 

 

 

[LDF]

Other than Chris Sale, the White Sox have done what exactly....it's definitely not very good.

 

KW proved he could run out of pieces to land a Cabrera well enough, or a Max Scherzer.

 

 

We turned Edwin Jackson into....some dudes from Toronto. The Tigers traded Jackson for who would become one of the five best pitchers in baseball, Max Scherzer.

 

That's really good. Victor Martinez over Adam Dunn, also pretty good.

 

If only JR was rich enough, the White Sox could have done the same thing.....and averaged well over 30,000 fans per game for over a decade.

 

Brilliant.

 

Tell KW to spend another $50-100 million, all our problems will be solved.

 

i disagree, when the salary was hitting 110+ mil in the 90's, all they needed was another player.

 

now the results of that investment would reap many layers of improvement in the financial aspect of business. 1 yr of a lost on profit, which can be turn around as a win - loss margin for over the past 3-5 yrs. profit range.

 

then the improvement in the fan base, the sells of those increase in all the side companies, food vendors, drinks, parking, parking, incidentals.

 

now with the success, the corp and commercial success and profits, which will be higher than normal profits.

 

season tickets will sell more,

 

now if the team has a success on the field for a 3-5 yrs span..... that $$$ profit line will increase every yr.

 

the sox will take over chi during the baseball season. all this will increase the income revenue.

[caulfield12]

i disagree, when the salary was hitting 110+ mil in the 90's, all they needed was another player.

 

now the results of that investment would reap many layers of improvement in the financial aspect of business. 1 yr of a lost on profit, which can be turn around as a win - loss margin for over the past 3-5 yrs. profit range.

 

then the improvement in the fan base, the sells of those increase in all the side companies, food vendors, drinks, parking, parking, incidentals.

 

now with the success, the corp and commercial success and profits, which will be higher than normal profits.

 

season tickets will sell more,

 

now if the team has a success on the field for a 3-5 yrs span..... that $$$ profit line will increase every yr.

 

the sox will take over chi during the baseball season. all this will increase the income revenue.

 

White Sox will never deliberately operate at a loss like the Tigers.

 

 

 

[LDF]

So John Schuerholz was only equal to KW despite 14 consecutive playoff appearances?

 

Why do we even need Hahn then?

 

Erroneous post? We didn't get him simply because JR didn't want a bad contract in Dontrelle Willis, and Maybin/Miller were both more highly ranked than any prospects in our system at that time.

 

 

This is like KW saying Robin Ventura almost won Manager of the Year in 2012....making comparisons with DD and Williams.

Well, we could have made the playoffs in 2003, 2006, 2010 and 2012. Great almost job!

 

per your post, JR and the rest of the owners can't see the pluses of loosing to get out in front in the long run.

 

in other words, no foresight ability.

[LDF]

White Sox will never deliberately operate at a loss like the Tigers.

 

not am i suggesting that it should, and i mean for long term.

 

but 1 yr???

[harfman77]

JR will never deliberately operate at a loss like the Tigers.

 

Fixed.