The White Sox complete Rebuild Discussion Thread

[Panerista]

Over in the Cubs catch all thread, we were having a great discussion about the teams that have had great success starting over. In particular, I'm thinking

Astros

Cubs

Twins

Royals

 

What would it take, and what would be the pros and cons of rebuilding a time the "right way"?

 

The first thing that I think jumps out immediately is attendance. The White Sox faithful tend to only come out for a winning product on the field.

Belief: The White Sox can't rebuild because people won't come

 

Problem? People aren't at the game now. See the sobering thread. The closest comparison I see is Houston. There was a game a couple of years back where NO ONE actually saw an Astros game on TV. The team was horrible year in and year out. However, it would appear through rebuilding that the Astros have one of the more fruitful minor leagues in baseball and it is beginning to show in the majors.

 

The next thing, IMHO, is the front office

Belief: The White Sox front office can't draft fielding talent

This may be the biggest issue for me. Is Gordon Beckham really the last "successful" talent prospect? Yikes.

 

Ownership

Belief: Jerry is old and wants to win now

I wonder if it is truly possible that Jerry does not want to make sweeping changes to the organization because any such change costs the White Sox a chance to win. This team tries to win it all every year and since 2006, they have been massive failures at it. Thankfully, the White Sox have been so bad, they have started to improve the farm system anyway, but not nearly to the level they could.

 

I'm still brainstorming this whole concept, because I'm convinced the White Sox could benefit heavily from a talent development model.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2015 by AustinIllini

[Knackattack]

I don't think a full rebuild will ever happen, and I think we are about halfway ready to compete now based on the pitching.

 

What we need to be a winning ballclub (imo)-

 

- A new RF. This is a free agency need, I think Heyward fits the bill perfectly with the age/defense combination and his bat plays pretty well. Removing Avi's horrible defense and popless bat is a massive boost to the team.

 

- Micah Johnson at 2nd base. Even with Carlos Sanchez recent hot streak with the bat, I can't forget the amount of time he spent batting under .200 this season and don't think he will ever hit well enough to warrant the starting role. While his defense is stellar I truly believe Micah's offensive profile is something this team desperately needs.

 

- Dump LaRoche and get away from this player profile at DH. A high slugging lefty bat worked when Jim Thome was here - but that was Jim Thome. Adam Dunn and LaRoche have been cancers on offense and payroll. Rotate players through DH and find a strong defensive sub (Carlos Sanchez/Trayce Thompson?) to cover infield/outfield to hide liabilities on defense (Melky, Eaton, Micah)

 

- A 3rd baseman that plays at least league average D and can put up close to a .750-.800 OPS. This is probably the hardest piece to find nowadays.

 

- To continue drafting quality starting pitching. While it seems silly to say I don't have faith in paid professionals producing position players, we haven't had a good one in awhile. I think the key to us getting quality players is to continue pumping out high quality pitching and then eventually deal it off for young, cost controlled players.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Knackattack

[caulfield12]

I don't think a full rebuild will ever happen, and I think we are about halfway ready to compete now based on the pitching.

 

What we need to be a winning ballclub (imo)-

 

- A new RF. This is a free agency need, I think Heyward fits the bill perfectly with the age/defense combination and his bat plays pretty well. Removing Avi's horrible defense and popless bat is a massive boost to the team.

 

- Micah Johnson at 2nd base. Even with Carlos Sanchez recent hot streak with the bat, I can't forget the amount of time he spent batting under .200 this season and don't think he will ever hit well enough to warrant the starting role. While his defense is stellar I truly believe Micah's offensive profile is something this team desperately needs.

 

- Dump LaRoche and get away from this player profile at DH. A high slugging lefty bat worked when Jim Thome was here - but that was Jim Thome. Adam Dunn and LaRoche have been cancers on offense and payroll. Rotate players through DH and find a strong defensive sub (Carlos Sanchez/Trayce Thompson?) to cover infield/outfield to hide liabilities on defense (Melky, Eaton, Micah)

 

- A 3rd baseman that plays at least league average D and can put up close to a .750-.800 OPS. This is probably the hardest piece to find nowadays.

 

- To continue drafting quality starting pitching. While it seems silly to say I don't have faith in paid professionals producing position players, we haven't had a good one in awhile. I think the key to us getting quality players is to continue pumping out high quality pitching and then eventually deal it off for young, cost controlled players.

 

There's already two problems with your plan.

 

Heyward's going to get around $150 million over 6-7 years. It won't be from the Sox.

 

Micah's main plus attribute is speed, and he's had hamstring issues for two consecutive years...along with the defense, those are two major red flags. If he's not a 30-50 stolen base guy, and he's not Billy Hamilton in cf, he won't last long unless he can hit like Ray Durham.

 

 

Any talk of rebuilding has to be centered around trading Quintana and/or Sale to be taken seriously.

 

[AlSoxfan]

I'm not sure at this point a complete rebuild is the way to go. On the other hand I thought Hahn did a pretty good job this past off season. How wrong I was. I think you would have to say good bye to Sale, Q an Abreu and maybe more. 3 very good contracts but that should give us a big jump start on good young players. I'm also a bit leary of this FO selecting the right players in trade. Other than pitching I don't see much in players in our minors.

[Knackattack]

There's already two problems with your plan.

 

Heyward's going to get around $150 million over 6-7 years. It won't be from the Sox.

 

Micah's main plus attribute is speed, and he's had hamstring issues for two consecutive years...along with the defense, those are two major red flags. If he's not a 30-50 stolen base guy, and he's not Billy Hamilton in cf, he won't last long unless he can hit like Ray Durham.

 

 

Any talk of rebuilding has to be centered around trading Quintana and/or Sale to be taken seriously.

If we really want to be taken seriously then we need to open the bank a bit for a quality player, Heyward is the type of talent/age combo I could see them paying. You're probably right though, but a lesser player in the same mold would be fine. Maybe a trade for Carlos Gonzalez could be worked on in the offseason.

 

And while the excitement of 80 whatever stolen bases Micah had has certainly hampered, I think he profiles as a .300/.360/.420 type of guy in the majors and batting out of the 2 hole would give us another on base threat behind Eaton and in front of Abreu/Melky. I'm a big fan of the rotating DH because it would allow us to minimize the time he would spend on the field, his weakest area. The same logic could apply to Melky.

[Panerista]

If we really want to be taken seriously then we need to open the bank a bit for a quality player, Heyward is the type of talent/age combo I could see them paying. You're probably right though, but a lesser player in the same mold would be fine. Maybe a trade for Carlos Gonzalez could be worked on in the offseason.

 

And while the excitement of 80 whatever stolen bases Micah had has certainly hampered, I think he profiles as a .300/.360/.420 type of guy in the majors and batting out of the 2 hole would give us another on base threat behind Eaton and in front of Abreu/Melky. I'm a big fan of the rotating DH because it would allow us to minimize the time he would spend on the field, his weakest area. The same logic could apply to Melky.

Or draft our own talent. There is no better value than a blue chip player on a rookie contract.

 

The front office might not be able to do this, however.

[Panerista]

I'm not sure at this point a complete rebuild is the way to go. On the other hand I thought Hahn did a pretty good job this past off season. How wrong I was. I think you would have to say good bye to Sale, Q an Abreu and maybe more. 3 very good contracts but that should give us a big jump start on good young players. I'm also a bit leary of this FO selecting the right players in trade. Other than pitching I don't see much in players in our minors.

While I admit you are probably right, it's really frustrating to see a number of teams have a good deal of success with it.

[caulfield12]

If we really want to be taken seriously then we need to open the bank a bit for a quality player, Heyward is the type of talent/age combo I could see them paying. You're probably right though, but a lesser player in the same mold would be fine. Maybe a trade for Carlos Gonzalez could be worked on in the offseason.

 

And while the excitement of 80 whatever stolen bases Micah had has certainly hampered, I think he profiles as a .300/.360/.420 type of guy in the majors and batting out of the 2 hole would give us another on base threat behind Eaton and in front of Abreu/Melky. I'm a big fan of the rotating DH because it would allow us to minimize the time he would spend on the field, his weakest area. The same logic could apply to Melky.

 

We can have Cargo this month via waiver claim....but not sure it's the right move to keep adding injury-prone veterans with big contracts.

 

Trading/dumping LaRoche won't be easy at all, and you know they aren't in the business of eating that much money, or Danks would have been sent packing years ago.

 

 

[AlSoxfan]

I don't think a full rebuild will ever happen, and I think we are about halfway ready to compete now based on the pitching.

 

What we need to be a winning ballclub (imo)-

 

- A new RF. This is a free agency need, I think Heyward fits the bill perfectly with the age/defense combination and his bat plays pretty well. Removing Avi's horrible defense and popless bat is a massive boost to the team.

 

- Micah Johnson at 2nd base. Even with Carlos Sanchez recent hot streak with the bat, I can't forget the amount of time he spent batting under .200 this season and don't think he will ever hit well enough to warrant the starting role. While his defense is stellar I truly believe Micah's offensive profile is something this team desperately needs.

 

- Dump LaRoche and get away from this player profile at DH. A high slugging lefty bat worked when Jim Thome was here - but that was Jim Thome. Adam Dunn and LaRoche have been cancers on offense and payroll. Rotate players through DH and find a strong defensive sub (Carlos Sanchez/Trayce Thompson?) to cover infield/outfield to hide liabilities on defense (Melky, Eaton, Micah)

 

- A 3rd baseman that plays at least league average D and can put up close to a .750-.800 OPS. This is probably the hardest piece to find nowadays.

 

- To continue drafting quality starting pitching. While it seems silly to say I don't have faith in paid professionals producing position players, we haven't had a good one in awhile. I think the key to us getting quality players is to continue pumping out high quality pitching and then eventually deal it off for young, cost controlled players.

I love Heyward but I just can't see the Sox signing him.

I'm not sure about Johnson yet defense is pretty important

love the rotating DH idea...It drives me nuts to see a shift put on a DH and him not able to hit it the other way especially if he's not hitting 40 Hrs a yr. I really don't care if he hits left or right just as long as he hits.

you can add catcher to that list of hard to find players an we need 1 of each.

 

[chitownsportsfan]

I have zero faith in the current setup to produce a winner so any change IMO would need to start with a re-evaluation of the entire FO, including KW, Hahn, JRs input, scouting team, minor league instructors, etc.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Highly doubt they do a full rebuild, and im not so sure they should.

 

When you have the rotation they do/will have, all you have to be is average offensively to have a shot.

[Panerista]

When you have the rotation they do/will have, all you have to be is average offensively to have a shot.

Tall order. This team is awful offensively. At least Eaton has come around.

[RegionSox]

How would they reevaluate JR's input? He is the owner, he has as much input as he wants.

[chitownsportsfan]

How would they reevaluate JR's input? He is the owner, he has as much input as he wants.

 

JR seems disenchanted with Manfred and losing his influence in the cabal of ownership. It would be a great time to re-evaluate his stake in the club and his influence. I hope he is ready to sell the club needs new leadership.

[Jake]

Cubs and Astros haven't done anything yet except have an alright half-season. Twins haven't done anything at all unless you're talking about something that happened a long time ago. Royals missed the playoffs for a quarter century. Do you want that?

[LDF]

How would they reevaluate JR's input? He is the owner, he has as much input as he wants.

 

really.....

 

sox came close but never had the ummmm to put it all together.

[Quin]

Cubs and Astros haven't done anything yet except have an alright half-season. Twins haven't done anything at all unless you're talking about something that happened a long time ago. Royals missed the playoffs for a quarter century. Do you want that?

 

I can have all of that?

 

[Quin]

really.....

 

sox came close but never had the ummmm to put it all together.

 

...2005?

[bmags]

Even with the most recent spade of losses, I'm less concerned than I was that we need to start over. In June, it looked like every young piece we had was a bust. Eaton was terrible, Sanchez couldn't hit, Micah couldn't field, Davidson was garbage again, Anderson was only hitting singles.

 

Davidson sucks, but everyone else has shown up. We still have huge question marks in the outfield, which is ridiculous considering the amount of resources we put into OF drafting for years, but we still need to get really lucky on someone to be an allstar rather than just a starter.

[LDF]

...2005?

 

that was my ummmm and fyi.

[OmarComing25]

I've seen a lot of posters here and on WSI lament the fact that we hadn't torn it all down and done a complete rebuild in the past, but looking back, when would such a move had made sense? In 2009, the year after winning the division? In 2011, a year after we won 88 games and would have probably made the playoffs with a competent DH? In 2012, when we lead the division for 95% of the season? 2013 basically was a total rebuilding year, as was 2014. you could argue they should have made 2015 a rebuilding year too, but we were 13th in runs scored last year in the MLB and had money to spend. If we had the same offensive production as the 2014 squad (and we made a few theoretical upgrades too), we're probably right there for a playoff spot this year. It's hard to argue with the results this season that we shouldn't have made 2015 a rebuilding year, but given that we had money to spend I don't necessarily fault them for going for it a little bit (just like in 2011 when we thought we had filled the DH hole).

 

However, I don't buy the argument that ownership was afraid of plummeting attendance if they committed to a full rebuild. There really wasn't a logical situation for it outside of the last couple of seasons, which were rebuilding years anyway. Also, all our main assets in 2013 and 2014 were young and cost-controlled, so a complete sell-off didn't really make sense.

[Balta1701]

I've seen a lot of posters here and on WSI lament the fact that we hadn't torn it all down and done a complete rebuild in the past, but looking back, when would such a move had made sense? In 2009, the year after winning the division? In 2011, a year after we won 88 games and would have probably made the playoffs with a competent DH? In 2012, when we lead the division for 95% of the season? 2013 basically was a total rebuilding year, as was 2014. you could argue they should have made 2015 a rebuilding year too, but we were 13th in runs scored last year in the MLB and had money to spend. If we had the same offensive production as the 2014 squad (and we made a few theoretical upgrades too), we're probably right there for a playoff spot this year. It's hard to argue with the results this season that we shouldn't have made 2015 a rebuilding year, but given that we had money to spend I don't necessarily fault them for going for it a little bit (just like in 2011 when we thought we had filled the DH hole).

 

However, I don't buy the argument that ownership was afraid of plummeting attendance if they committed to a full rebuild. There really wasn't a logical situation for it outside of the last couple of seasons, which were rebuilding years anyway. Also, all our main assets in 2013 and 2014 were young and cost-controlled, so a complete sell-off didn't really make sense.

The White Sox have had 2 "big spending splurges where they sacrificed draft picks" in the past 5 seasons, after 2010 and after 2014. Both of them have basically been failures and the guys they spent money on have seriously underperformed. 2013 was also a big spending season, everything just collapsed during it. At the very least, sitting back and saying "this tactic has now failed for us repeatedly, what can we do different with this organization" should be at the top of the list.

[LDF]

I've seen a lot of posters here and on WSI lament the fact that we hadn't torn it all down and done a complete rebuild in the past, but looking back, when would such a move had made sense? In 2009, the year after winning the division? In 2011, a year after we won 88 games and would have probably made the playoffs with a competent DH? In 2012, when we lead the division for 95% of the season? 2013 basically was a total rebuilding year, as was 2014. you could argue they should have made 2015 a rebuilding year too, but we were 13th in runs scored last year in the MLB and had money to spend. If we had the same offensive production as the 2014 squad (and we made a few theoretical upgrades too), we're probably right there for a playoff spot this year. It's hard to argue with the results this season that we shouldn't have made 2015 a rebuilding year, but given that we had money to spend I don't necessarily fault them for going for it a little bit (just like in 2011 when we thought we had filled the DH hole).

 

However, I don't buy the argument that ownership was afraid of plummeting attendance if they committed to a full rebuild. There really wasn't a logical situation for it outside of the last couple of seasons, which were rebuilding years anyway. Also, all our main assets in 2013 and 2014 were young and cost-controlled, so a complete sell-off didn't really make sense.

 

i have stated this before, if the past was chg, the sox may never had Jose A and Sale for the run now.

 

and again, from 2008-2011, the sox needed several pieces to have made themselves much better. they really needed to acquire some serious talent but that would mean the sox would need to commit to it.

[chitownsportsfan]

The White Sox have had 2 "big spending splurges where they sacrificed draft picks" in the past 5 seasons, after 2010 and after 2014. Both of them have basically been failures and the guys they spent money on have seriously underperformed. 2013 was also a big spending season, everything just collapsed during it. At the very least, sitting back and saying "this tactic has now failed for us repeatedly, what can we do different with this organization" should be at the top of the list.

 

The spending has been the absolute least of their problems IMO. This isn't the Red Sox FO throwing hundreds of millions at replacement level players. Even this "all in" push resulted in the loss of (I believe) a 3rd round pick and the only "untradeable" contract is LaRoche and his 20 million or so over the next two years isn't crippling anything.

 

The problem has been their arguably league worst ability to develop above replacement position players in house and properly evaluate talent to bring in both through trades and FA. The scouting and player development are two sides of the same coin and they are both utter horse s***.

[bmags]

The spending has been the absolute least of their problems IMO. This isn't the Red Sox FO throwing hundreds of millions at replacement level players. Even this "all in" push resulted in the loss of (I believe) a 3rd round pick and the only "untradeable" contract is LaRoche and his 20 million or so over the next two years isn't crippling anything.

 

The problem has been their arguably league worst ability to develop above replacement position players in house and properly evaluate talent to bring in both through trades and FA. The scouting and player development are two sides of the same coin and they are both utter horse s***.

 

2nd and 3rd round.