The White Sox complete Rebuild Discussion Thread

[chitownsportsfan]

2nd and 3rd round.

 

So some losses, but the average 2nd rounder never even makes the bigs so can hardly call it a crippling blow. The "all in" plan was a pretty good one IMO but instead of everything (or most things) breaking right, most things broke wrong.

 

A lot of it is their own doing, first with bringing an obviously over matched defensively Micah north (again, poor internal scouting and development), continuing to let LaRoche play against LHP well into July, not getting more AB for Soto, waiting so long to cut bait on Conor...the list goes on.

[GreatScott82]

I think a rebuild is LOOOONG over due! Since this organization can't draft they have tremendous assets in Sale, Abreu, Quintana and even Melky. I posted my disappointment in this organizations approach in the "Dissappointment Thread" and here is what I had to say in regards to a rebuild:

 

The organization has no choice but to be disciplined it terms of trying to 'add' pieces. They are in no position to trade prospects away. In fact, they desperately need to add prospects to a still well below average farm system. Thats what happens when your organization cannot draft for more than a decade. It forces Hahn to continue to look into trading away the only asset this team has which is starting pitching. In 2013 it all started with trading Peavy away for Avi and Montas. During the winter of 2013, they traded Hector Santiago for Eaton and Reed for Davidson.

Since this team won't even consider the idea of trading Chris Sale, they MUST look into trading Quintana this winter for positional players who have tremendous potential or younger talent whom have already made it in the big leagues.

 

This repatching and retooling non-sense must stop. This team needs a two to three year rebuild. If they continue to try and patch up holes via free agency and not address the actual problem, which is a lack of prospect depth in this system, they will continue to be a perennial average to below average team with a below average manager. Since you cannot draft, you better damn well consider acquirering prospects via trades. Melky can likely bring something of value back this winter as well.

 

Since KW and Robin aren't going anywhere due to the 'loyalty' game JR prides on, we can only hope Hahn convinces them both that this is the best and only way to go in an effort to make this team a true contender again. I don't give a damn how old JR is, they need to do whats right! Hire some real scouts, draft some real damn positional prospects and lets right this ship. You cannot fool Sox fans any longer. I hate to say it, but you don't have to look far just to see how obtaining prospects through trades and drafting well over a 4 to 5 year window can transform your organization. (Damn Cubs)

 

I don't want to hear "We can't afford to lose like they did" Well I'd much rather lose for three years than be average and miss the playoffs for the next 10 years. I stand here today, angry, disappointed and frustrated because I know they will NOT do the right thing under this current regime. I sure as hell hope they prove me wrong this winter. For the love of God, please scrap this made up '3 year window' KW mentioned and start a rebuild.

 

In short, they should spend the next three years committed to building up a below average farm system through trades and actually drafting talent.

[harfman77]

A true rebuild will never happen when JR is in charge. The fans are too fickle and he is still mocked to this day for the last full rebuild he attempted (White Flag trades).

 

It is not really fair to say the Sox cannot develop hitting talent, they really have not even tried. They had Semien and Johnson both reach the majors in the last year as 5-10 round draft picks. They have really focused heavily on pitching at the expense of drafting hitters with the potential to impact the game.

 

The Sox scouts are also overly enamored with RH power. This leads to selecting/signing guys that have light tower power in batting practice but have an excessive amount of swing and miss in their game and often poor pitch recognition. Since Hahn has taken over the draft, they have done much better selecting hitting prospects, but they are still a ways away from contributing.

 

A full rebuild would be tough to pull off, you have young, high quality cost controlled assets not that you would be turning around for young, unknown quality cost controlled assets. The biggest mistake that Hahn made was adding LaRoche and Cabrera this off-season and giving a piece of the fan base a notion that the team was going to contend this year and giving up a draft pick, this is only year 2 of the rebuilding project and it has a ways to go yet before success can be sustainable.

 

You are barely into the last rebuild, why would want to tear it apart and start over?

[Panerista]

A true rebuild will never happen when JR is in charge. The fans are too fickle and he is still mocked to this day for the last full rebuild he attempted (White Flag trades).

 

It is not really fair to say the Sox cannot develop hitting talent, they really have not even tried. They had Semien and Johnson both reach the majors in the last year as 5-10 round draft picks. They have really focused heavily on pitching at the expense of drafting hitters with the potential to impact the game.

 

The Sox scouts are also overly enamored with RH power. This leads to selecting/signing guys that have light tower power in batting practice but have an excessive amount of swing and miss in their game and often poor pitch recognition. Since Hahn has taken over the draft, they have done much better selecting hitting prospects, but they are still a ways away from contributing.

 

A full rebuild would be tough to pull off, you have young, high quality cost controlled assets not that you would be turning around for young, unknown quality cost controlled assets. The biggest mistake that Hahn made was adding LaRoche and Cabrera this off-season and giving a piece of the fan base a notion that the team was going to contend this year and giving up a draft pick, this is only year 2 of the rebuilding project and it has a ways to go yet before success can be sustainable.

 

You are barely into the last rebuild, why would want to tear it apart and start over?

When I say "rebuild", I don't mean "rebuild current roster", I mean "rebuilding your entire organization from the ground up and draft real talent you can develop internally"

[harfman77]

When I say "rebuild", I don't mean "rebuild current roster", I mean "rebuilding your entire organization from the ground up and draft real talent you can develop internally"

 

And that will happen as soon as JR sells and not a minute before.

 

They have been drafting good talent recently, you cannot ignore that.

Edited August 5, 2015 by IowaSoxFan

[he gone.]

In this day and age where there is so much parity I don't think it makes sense to tear a team apart when, if you can make the playoffs, you'd have a three/four headed monster in Sale, Q, Rodon (eventually), Fulmer (eventually), and Shark (if re-signed). In the playoffs you can almost run a 3 man rotation out there and have the others pitching middle relief.

 

For this reason alone, I think it is foolish to completely rebuild.

 

THAT BEING SAID,

There are some glaring holes that are very easy for good baseball fans like the ones on this forum to catch. You don't have to be perfect around the diamond, however you can't have as many holes offensively or defensively as we do. Saladino and Sanchez can play D, but have no O. Garcia has holes in his approach, talent is there, but holes and no D. LaRoche looks like Dunn and is old. Alexei has one year left on his contract and Anderson is next in line. But he is much like Micah. He's got an MLB bat, holes on defense. So can you really count on Micah and Anderson up the middle? With the bats, yes, with the defense? No.

So good is having these good pitchers if the defense behind is terrible? 3B has been a hole for a decade. Who fills that? The real only solid options I see are Melky, Abreu and Eaton over the next 2 years. Other than that? Woof.

 

My ideal pie in the sky hopes around the diamond -- with a small dose of reality: This is 2 years from now....

 

1B - Abreu

2B - Sanchez

SS - Anderson

3B - either a trade of prospects for a star, or a big FA signing.

LF - Melky

CF - Eaton

RF - either a trade of prospects for a star or a big FA signing

C - Beats me. Someone who doesn't strikeout a ton and plays defense. Dont care who it is, as long as its not flowers.

DH - Micah

 

Do i think it will happen? no. But, micah in the DH gives them the speed and good approach at the plate. Leaving sanchez up the middle allows the defense to be okay. 3B will the hardest to fill. I feel like everybody should be jealous/regret not being like the Blue Jays and Tigers when they traded for Miggy and Donaldson. Those two are complete franchise type players that were available. I'll stop rambling. But I think we have the bones to build around -- just need to figure out 6 positions!

 

[Bigsoxhurt35]

This team doesn't need a complete rebuild. Should've done it two years ago if you were. We need to make another big FA bat signing this offseason and see what the rest of the roster will be. I'm so so on Shark and not at $100 million.

Edited August 5, 2015 by SouthSideSale

[Panerista]

And that will happen as soon as JR sells and not a minute before.

 

They have been drafting good talent recently, you cannot ignore that.

So outside of pitchers, who was the last good talent to play major time for the White Sox after being drafted by the White Sox?

 

Gordon Beckham

 

And he's not much to write home about, either.

[he gone.]

I agree, I'd rather see the $20mm we are budgeting on Shark spent elsewhere, or at least not at 5yr, $100mm.

 

I think with the amount of pitching talent that is set to hit FA that we may be able to nab a Shark later in the offseason like Shields. Say 4 years, $15mm per. At that -- I'd do it for sure. Even 4yrs, $70mm. That's about where I'd top out. Don't want 5 years.

 

It's way too early in the season to look what FA are out there, but we seem to be able to develop pitchers much better than hitters in the minors. So not signing Shark and acquiring hitters seems like a good idea to me.

 

 

[harfman77]

So outside of pitchers, who was the last good talent to play major time for the White Sox after being drafted by the White Sox?

 

Tyler Saladino?

 

And who have they spent first round picks on since then?

 

Tim Anderson - #1 Prospect

Courtney Hawkins - #9 Prospect

 

There is some talent in the pipe with Anderson, Michalczewski, and Johnson who would be in the majors if not blocked by Sox developed prospect Carlos Sanchez.

 

The reality of the draft is that the Sox have been heavy into pitching with guys like Sale, Rodon, Fulmer, Adams, Danish, Beck, and Johnson all drafted in the top two rounds. They have just not really focused on hitting prospects in the draft and it shows. They have been trying to supplement that in the LA market, but all of what they have done there is really far away. It takes time to build a farm system especially one that was as depleted as the Sox when Hahn took over. Once the farm is rebuilt and it is consistently graduating players to the MLB level, the Sox will have the fire power to contend consistently.

[southsider2k5]

A true rebuild will never happen when JR is in charge. The fans are too fickle and he is still mocked to this day for the last full rebuild he attempted (White Flag trades).

 

It is not really fair to say the Sox cannot develop hitting talent, they really have not even tried. They had Semien and Johnson both reach the majors in the last year as 5-10 round draft picks. They have really focused heavily on pitching at the expense of drafting hitters with the potential to impact the game.

 

The Sox scouts are also overly enamored with RH power. This leads to selecting/signing guys that have light tower power in batting practice but have an excessive amount of swing and miss in their game and often poor pitch recognition. Since Hahn has taken over the draft, they have done much better selecting hitting prospects, but they are still a ways away from contributing.

 

A full rebuild would be tough to pull off, you have young, high quality cost controlled assets not that you would be turning around for young, unknown quality cost controlled assets. The biggest mistake that Hahn made was adding LaRoche and Cabrera this off-season and giving a piece of the fan base a notion that the team was going to contend this year and giving up a draft pick, this is only year 2 of the rebuilding project and it has a ways to go yet before success can be sustainable.

 

You are barely into the last rebuild, why would want to tear it apart and start over?

 

The thread should end right here.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Ownership

Belief: Jerry is old and wants to win now

I wonder if it is truly possible that Jerry does not want to make sweeping changes to the organization because any such change costs the White Sox a chance to win. This team tries to win it all every year and since 2006, they have been massive failures at it. Thankfully, the White Sox have been so bad, they have started to improve the farm system anyway, but not nearly to the level they could.

 

I'm still brainstorming this whole concept, because I'm convinced the White Sox could benefit heavily from a talent development model.

Biggest fallacy out there. Try discussing Jerry want's to make money for himself and his investors and 4-5-6 lean years in a row to rebuild will hurt the bottom line. If the Sox continue having a middling team with middling attendance and middling sponsors they can still make money.

[BamaDoc]

Like it or not our team follows some degree of a budget. If Smardja leaves 10 million available. A big key will be Alexi. If he will take a cut or can be replaced up to another ten million. So potentially, 20 million available.

 

After 2016 LaRoche and Danks contracts done so another 29 million available.

 

What you really need is for Fulmer to be ready/decent by 2017. Rodon needs to improve. Johnson/Drabek/Montas or other young player needs to move into rotation in 2016 and be 4 or 5. Really need two to come along for depth. Anderson needs to pan out. I would not be opposed to a platoon or two to get good performance at less dollar. Maybe one big FA. Cost controlled pitching is our biggest advantage and should not be be blown up unless the trade is for proven young controlled talent in a trade we clearly win. Can't see somebody doing that so the ability to have pitching that gives you a chance to win everyday matters. Old saying "Momentum only as good as tomorrows pitcher"

[Panerista]

The thread should end right here.

The fact that our owner is 79 and he has instructed his family to sell the team on his passing is enough that this is still a worthwhile discussion, especially since his team has been bad for nearly 10 years.

[southsider2k5]

So outside of pitchers, who was the last good talent to play major time for the White Sox after being drafted by the White Sox?

 

Gordon Beckham

 

And he's not much to write home about, either.

 

See that's the thing. You can nitpick with any franchise you want if you add enough exclusions.

[Panerista]

See that's the thing. You can nitpick with any franchise you want if you add enough exclusions.

Double post

Edited August 5, 2015 by AustinIllini

[Panerista]

See that's the thing. You can nitpick with any franchise you want if you add enough exclusions.

Other teams can grow their own talent. The White Sox are incapable among position players. Even if you take out the qualification "plays for the White Sox", the list is much too small because Kenny Williams is a terrible judge of positional talent.

 

And before you say "Rick Hahn is the GM", he hasn't had that much positional talent brought up.

[southsider2k5]

Other teams can grow their own talent. The White Sox are incapable among position players. Even if you take out the qualification "plays for the White Sox", the list is much too small because Kenny Williams is a terrible judge of positional talent.

 

And before you say "Rick Hahn is the GM", he hasn't had that much positional talent brought up.

 

We do grow talent. But when you start adding caveats to make it look like we don't, it changes the appearance.

[Jake]

This team has a lot of good pieces that are all relatively young and under team control. Nothing is promised, but you don't need to intentionally lose to get where you need to go. It is worrisome that our front office has had a really hard time giving out free agent contracts that don't look terrible in retrospect because you're going to have to bring in veterans that don't fall on their face to ultimately put things together.

 

2005, for example, was all about adding a bunch of solid players on market level contracts to a core that was already pretty good (particularly the starting rotation and a couple of hitters). If we can't at least start signing players who just meet expectations, we're in trouble.

 

With that said, we need to fit Alexei and Abreu into the equation of evaluating this front office somewhere. These are either essentially amateur players we've turned into integral assets (eliminating the "Beckham is the last position prospect to pan out" argument) or they are free agent signings that have gone fabulously well. You can choose which way to think about it, but you can't pretend they don't count.

[caulfield12]

This team has a lot of good pieces that are all relatively young and under team control. Nothing is promised, but you don't need to intentionally lose to get where you need to go. It is worrisome that our front office has had a really hard time giving out free agent contracts that don't look terrible in retrospect because you're going to have to bring in veterans that don't fall on their face to ultimately put things together.

 

2005, for example, was all about adding a bunch of solid players on market level contracts to a core that was already pretty good (particularly the starting rotation and a couple of hitters). If we can't at least start signing players who just meet expectations, we're in trouble.

 

With that said, we need to fit Alexei and Abreu into the equation of evaluating this front office somewhere. These are either essentially amateur players we've turned into integral assets (eliminating the "Beckham is the last position prospect to pan out" argument) or they are free agent signings that have gone fabulously well. You can choose which way to think about it, but you can't pretend they don't count.

 

 

Essentially, Abreu, Ramirez and Quintana have prevented them from being terribad.

 

That covers for a lot of mistakes in other areas, but it won't compensate for every fa acquisition going in the wrong direction.

[Balta1701]

2005, for example, was all about adding a bunch of solid players on market level contracts to a core that was already pretty good (particularly the starting rotation and a couple of hitters). If we can't at least start signing players who just meet expectations, we're in trouble.

See, I actually think that's very much "Not" what the White Sox did with the guys they signed on the FA market. Pretty much every one of them was a value signing to my eyes, a person who had something knocking down their FA dollars, which is fundamentally different from what we did with guys like Dunn, LaRoche, Cabrera, etc.

 

List:

Dye: coming off a severe leg injury and hadn't performed well in the time since the injury. Injury knocked price down.

Hermason: had closed a bit for the Giants but mostly he was a starter the year before who hadn't performed as a starter, not being a closer knocked down his value.

Iguchi: unknown quantity, and Japanese players at that time had their overall value knocked down because Kaz Matsui hadn't hit for the Mets like he was supposed to.

Orlando Hernandez: basically was tossed aside by the Yankees as being at the end of his career. Really they weren't wrong, he just had a bit left in the tank. Value signing because of age.

AJ Pierzynski: Value signing because he supposedly kneed a guy in a particularly painful spot, among other reasons.

 

Compare that to the full-priced guys we just signed and maybe the only one you can make a case as a value signing is the one I like the least because of the whole needle thing.

[Eminor3rd]

I am not in favor of a scorched-Earth rebuild and don't think it's necessary under the current playoff structure. No team is ever going to look good when nearly all of its players perform below expectations, yet it happens to half the team in baseball every year. Sometimes you try and just don't win. I don't think the core fo the team is as hopeless as they've looked this year, and with a good offseason, I think the Sox can be legitimate contenders for the next few years. Not powerhouses, but in the race.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Eminor3rd

[caulfield12]

See, I actually think that's very much "Not" what the White Sox did with the guys they signed on the FA market. Pretty much every one of them was a value signing to my eyes, a person who had something knocking down their FA dollars, which is fundamentally different from what we did with guys like Dunn, LaRoche, Cabrera, etc.

 

List:

Dye: coming off a severe leg injury and hadn't performed well in the time since the injury. Injury knocked price down.

Hermason: had closed a bit for the Giants but mostly he was a starter the year before who hadn't performed as a starter, not being a closer knocked down his value.

Iguchi: unknown quantity, and Japanese players at that time had their overall value knocked down because Kaz Matsui hadn't hit for the Mets like he was supposed to.

Orlando Hernandez: basically was tossed aside by the Yankees as being at the end of his career. Really they weren't wrong, he just had a bit left in the tank. Value signing because of age.

AJ Pierzynski: Value signing because he supposedly kneed a guy in a particularly painful spot, among other reasons.

 

Compare that to the full-priced guys we just signed and maybe the only one you can make a case as a value signing is the one I like the least because of the whole needle thing.

 

And Contreras and Everett prior to that....all value deals. Contreras was the best pitcher in baseball from that August until May, 2006, when he got hurt.

 

The Pods/Vizcaino move was more about clearing CLee's salary off the roster, but Pods had a disappointing follow-up to his rookie campaign.

 

Along with Kaz Matsui, you could add Rey Ordonez.

 

The only "fair market" value was Garcia for Reed, Olivo and Morse, then the extension.

 

Finally, Bobby Jenks on waivers.

Edited August 5, 2015 by caulfield12

[Jerksticks]

We have some of the absolute best players in baseball. I think next year will surprise many of the doubters. The farm is fully fertilized and growing, just wait.

[Lip Man 1]

JR seems disenchanted with Manfred and losing his influence in the cabal of ownership. It would be a great time to re-evaluate his stake in the club and his influence. I hope he is ready to sell the club needs new leadership.

 

I was told by in May from a source that the topic of "selling" has come up from time to time this year. But as long as the Sox are continuing to make the kind of money they are I can't see major changes especially to ownership.

 

The same source told me at the same time that JR was so pissed off at the way things were going he was almost ready to let Kenny leave.

 

We'll never know for sure.

 

In my opinion though and I've said this for a long time including a recent column at Chicago Now / Sox Net, this organization has become stale and set in their ways. Major changes are needed including bringing in successful front office and scouting people from organizations that have consistently won. The Sox desperately need new ideas and a fresh way of looking at their problems.

 

I just don't see that happening however until JR is no longer on the scene.

 

Mark