CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 06:59 PM) I think the thought process really went off the rails in the 2014 offseason. Fine, Adam Dunn and the 2011 team turned into a disaster. 2012 was somehow better, then in 2013 we had to begin tearing things down. We moved off Peavy, we cleared salary, we started giving time to young guys. We successfully brought in Abreu, so we started gathering pieces...then the 2014 offseason hit. In the 2014 offseason was where we really blew it. We made so many basic errors, so many flaws in our thought process. That's where we shortcut the path we were on that could have actually worked and could have actually worked at building a strong, deep roster. First on that list is that we couldn't be patient, we couldn't give time for guys to adapt to the big leagues, we knew with absolute certainty that they were ready to go and big leaguers never need time to grow into the league. Avi Garcia was ready right now and we were sure of it. Micah Johnson could jump completely over AAA because we said he would. Carlos Rodon was going to improve our record this season by 10 wins. Then we threw in a nice batch of assuming some guys would develop while other guys never would, because we said so. Phegley and Semien would never develop into anything useful because we said they wouldn't. Bassitt was talented but he's a reliever, guys never improve on their offspeed stuff. But hey, here's a big name pitcher off of a career best year. And the fan base fully bought in, continued declaring in the same breath that we gave up so little for that pitcher and then wondering how we had an organization with so little depth. Then there's the failure to assess risk. Conor Gillaspie and Tyler Flowers were going to be solid players because they had 1 year that showed it. There was no risk of them taking steps back. Abreu and Eaton were guaranteed to have better seasons than 2014. Alexei Ramirez had no risk of getting older and therefore we had to hold him because we can't afford to give anyone time to grow into his spot. Chris Sale's arm is rubber. Then there's the failure to think about defense. And yes, some of the guys they traded away weren't going to help with that, but then we plugged in guys who were no better, and we weren't willing to give guys time to improve on their defense or grow into positions. Then there's the assumption that paying full value on the free agent market is a good deal. That's just a lesson we need to learn, it's flat out not working for us. Or really, most teams - the teams that had great FA spending sprees last offseason are overwhelmingly disappointing right now. So fine, the team didn't have an obvious time to "rebuild" coming into 2014, but then they started the process in 2014 and then short circuited it. They couldn't be patient. They couldn't pass on 2015 and use it as a year to grow some guys up while filtering out the unsuccessful ones. They couldn't give people time to grow into their roles. They went for the big names instead of making sure they were deep with guys who could grow into contributors. They bet hugely on the whole roster taking big steps forwards and in the process, they set themselves back substantially. They had time, they had a roster that could have grown together and then had tiny holes to fill, instead they went for the big splashes, they had to compete right now, full speed ahead and bleep the torpedoes. And the end result is that now we're back to having to fill gaping holes on the FA market and worrying about a roster with little depth and we'll need to rely on rookies and we've got a lot of weak defenders but I'm sure it'll work better in 2016 so let's spend big again. Very good post . I'm surprised you were able to refrain from mentioning Adam LaRoche specifically who I know you had deep reservations on. Even at the trade deadline a ton of big names were thrown around while of course we'd have to give up more minor league depth , maybe even some of the prized prospects. I brought up a cheap alternative for a non big name like Chris Colabello and got some not so nice responses. He's exactly the kind of castoff who could have been had after the Twins said goodbye to him. With the acquisitions by Toronto he might've come cheaply and his splits are excellent for use as a DH or PH with power off the bench. In other words a depth guy with a pretty potent bat. I'll edit this to say I was completely on board with spending the money we had in the off season since I was one of the biggest proponents of trying to get Victor Martinez but I never had Adam LaRoche in mind as a substitute for VMart. Moral of the story: Instant gratification is never quite the answer fans seem to think it is. Edited August 6, 2015 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkness99 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Definitely not rebuild time... we are better this year but still need a few pieces and a different coaching staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (BigFinn @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 09:26 PM) The worst part of the "White flag" trade was how the White Sox front office betrayed Robin Ventura. If I remember correctly, Robin had a horrific knee injury on a play at the plate during spring training. Robin was busting his ass in rehab while the Sox were fighting with Cleveland all summer. Just as Robin was ready to rejoin the club, Alvarez, Hernandez, and Darwin got traded to the Giants. The Sox brass has been working to rebuild that sense of loyalty throughout the organization, but the "White flag" trade was a true low point in the history of this franchise. Robin broke and dislocated his ankle when his spikes got caught in the mud sliding near home plate against the Red Sox. His foot literally was pointing 180 degrees opposite of the way it should. The injury was so gruesome that a woman in the first row of seats fainted. Yes the "White Flag Trade" was an unmitigated disaster for the Sox. Locally even mild mannered columnists like Bob Verdi were savage in their responses. Nationally ESPN's Baseball Tonight devoted almost their entire show that night to the trade. Joe Morgan was extremely caustic berating the organization. Dave "Soup" Campbell the same although not quite as bad. The "Sox Surrender" was the lead story that week in Sports Illustrated. The story quoted Alvarez and Hernandez as saying when manager Terry Bevington (a first rate buffoon) told them they were traded he was "laughing." The move did incredible damage to the organization on and off the field. Sox attendance dropped like a stone the next few seasons and even in 2000 when the team won 95 games, attendance wasn't that great. Fans simply did not trust Reinsdorf anymore. And remember this took place after the collusion issues in the mid 80's which former commissioner Fay Vincent accused JR of being a ringleader and of course the labor issue of 1994 which cost the Sox a potential trip to the playoffs and or World Series. Mark Edited August 6, 2015 by Lip Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 08:37 PM) Robin broke and dislocated his ankle when his spikes got caught in the mud sliding near home plate against the Red Sox. His foot literally was pointing 180 degrees opposite of the way it should. The injury was so gruesome that a woman in the first row of seats fainted. Yes the "White Flag Trade" was an unmitigated disaster for the Sox. Locally even mild mannered columnists like Bob Verdi were savage in their responses. Nationally ESPN's Baseball Tonight devoted almost their entire show that night to the trade. Joe Morgan was extremely caustic berating the organization. Dave "Soup" Campbell the same although not quite as bad. The "Sox Surrender" was the lead story that week in Sports Illustrated. The story quoted Alvarez and Hernandez as saying when manager Terry Bevington (a first rate buffoon) told them they were traded he was "laughing." The move did incredible damage to the organization on and off the field. Sox attendance dropped like a stone the next few seasons and even in 2000 when the team won 95 games, attendance wasn't that great. Fans simply did not trust Reinsdorf anymore. And remember this took place after the collusion issues in the mid 80's which former commissioner Fay Vincent accused JR of being a ringleader and of course the labor issue of 1994 which cost the Sox a potential trip to the playoffs and or World Series. Mark Thank you for reminding everyone of that. If anyone thinks JR has the Sox best interests at heart, think again. The reason for going for it every year is the bottom line. Has been that way and continues to be. When he passes his family and the investors will all make a huge profit on top of the profits they have already pocketed. Edited August 6, 2015 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Balta's post is very, very, VERY good. I agree with him on many of the points he brought up. I think they went off the rails because Kenny simply couldn't wait. Many of these signing over the winter appeared to have his fingerprints all over them. (veterans in their 30's). Hahn appeared to want to be more patient but apparently he was over ruled as Kenny himself said anything Hahn and his staff want to do they have to run it by him first. The other factor I think was that even with maybe the best stadium deal in MLB (as outlined by the tribune) last year, attendance was dropping dangerously low. The franchise had lost fans from the previous year for eight consecutive seasons. They had lost 56% of the attendance since the end of the 2006 season. The decision was made in part to do something to bring back the season ticket holders. Obviously it hasn't worked on the field. Patience is a virtue, Kenny with his "football mentality," and his "go for broke" approach just doesn't have the capacity to wait three or four or five years so it's always "rebuild and contend" or "retool and contend" and that usually does not work. At least history shows it hasn't worked for this franchise for almost a decade. "It's time" for drastic changes at all levels in the front office. New blood, new ideas are desperately needed. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (BigFinn @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 03:26 AM) The worst part of the "White flag" trade was how the White Sox front office betrayed Robin Ventura. If I remember correctly, Robin had a horrific knee injury on a play at the plate during spring training. Robin was busting his ass in rehab while the Sox were fighting with Cleveland all summer. Just as Robin was ready to rejoin the club, Alvarez, Hernandez, and Darwin got traded to the Giants. The Sox brass has been working to rebuild that sense of loyalty throughout the organization, but the "White flag" trade was a true low point in the history of this franchise. nice, post. also 2 of those players who the sox received help in the 2000 championship series .... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Flag_Trade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 03:37 AM) Robin broke and dislocated his ankle when his spikes got caught in the mud sliding near home plate against the Red Sox. His foot literally was pointing 180 degrees opposite of the way it should. The injury was so gruesome that a woman in the first row of seats fainted. Yes the "White Flag Trade" was an unmitigated disaster for the Sox. Locally even mild mannered columnists like Bob Verdi were savage in their responses. Nationally ESPN's Baseball Tonight devoted almost their entire show that night to the trade. Joe Morgan was extremely caustic berating the organization. Dave "Soup" Campbell the same although not quite as bad. The "Sox Surrender" was the lead story that week in Sports Illustrated. The story quoted Alvarez and Hernandez as saying when manager Terry Bevington (a first rate buffoon) told them they were traded he was "laughing." The move did incredible damage to the organization on and off the field. Sox attendance dropped like a stone the next few seasons and even in 2000 when the team won 95 games, attendance wasn't that great. Fans simply did not trust Reinsdorf anymore. And remember this took place after the collusion issues in the mid 80's which former commissioner Fay Vincent accused JR of being a ringleader and of course the labor issue of 1994 which cost the Sox a potential trip to the playoffs and or World Series. Mark and as you said in a real nice post, many fans then, like me and now still don't trust the sox owners, and that includes me. i don't trust them to do the right thing in getting missing pieces. they go for the short fix and hope while berating fans for not supporting the team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 03:45 AM) Thank you for reminding everyone of that. If anyone thinks JR has the Sox best interests at heart, think again. The reason for going for it every year is the bottom line. Has been that way and continues to be. When he passes his family and the investors will all make a huge profit on top of the profits they have already pocketed. not including all the side companies with huge contracts that the org has to honor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 03:46 AM) Balta's post is very, very, VERY good. I agree with him on many of the points he brought up. I think they went off the rails because Kenny simply couldn't wait. Many of these signing over the winter appeared to have his fingerprints all over them. (veterans in their 30's). Hahn appeared to want to be more patient but apparently he was over ruled as Kenny himself said anything Hahn and his staff want to do they have to run it by him first. The other factor I think was that even with maybe the best stadium deal in MLB (as outlined by the tribune) last year, attendance was dropping dangerously low. The franchise had lost fans from the previous year for eight consecutive seasons. They had lost 56% of the attendance since the end of the 2006 season. The decision was made in part to do something to bring back the season ticket holders. Obviously it hasn't worked on the field. Patience is a virtue, Kenny with his "football mentality," and his "go for broke" approach just doesn't have the capacity to wait three or four or five years so it's always "rebuild and contend" or "retool and contend" and that usually does not work. At least history shows it hasn't worked for this franchise for almost a decade. "It's time" for drastic changes at all levels in the front office. New blood, new ideas are desperately needed. Mark another excellent post, but i would like to add that the prices were dropped this yr and many specials were offered, but when the team was going good, the prices for the tickets became extremely high. max the profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 09:46 PM) Balta's post is very, very, VERY good. I agree with him on many of the points he brought up. I think they went off the rails because Kenny simply couldn't wait. Many of these signing over the winter appeared to have his fingerprints all over them. (veterans in their 30's). Hahn appeared to want to be more patient but apparently he was over ruled as Kenny himself said anything Hahn and his staff want to do they have to run it by him first. The other factor I think was that even with maybe the best stadium deal in MLB (as outlined by the tribune) last year, attendance was dropping dangerously low. The franchise had lost fans from the previous year for eight consecutive seasons. They had lost 56% of the attendance since the end of the 2006 season. The decision was made in part to do something to bring back the season ticket holders. Obviously it hasn't worked on the field. Patience is a virtue, Kenny with his "football mentality," and his "go for broke" approach just doesn't have the capacity to wait three or four or five years so it's always "rebuild and contend" or "retool and contend" and that usually does not work. At least history shows it hasn't worked for this franchise for almost a decade. "It's time" for drastic changes at all levels in the front office. New blood, new ideas are desperately needed. Mark To me that would mean getting rid of scouts, instructional coaches and Buddy Bell. I believe at this level Reinsdorf has his favorites. I still believe getting players from losing organizations makes a difference. They've come from playing in non pressure situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 09:46 PM) Balta's post is very, very, VERY good. I agree with him on many of the points he brought up. I think they went off the rails because Kenny simply couldn't wait. Many of these signing over the winter appeared to have his fingerprints all over them. (veterans in their 30's). Hahn appeared to want to be more patient but apparently he was over ruled as Kenny himself said anything Hahn and his staff want to do they have to run it by him first. The other factor I think was that even with maybe the best stadium deal in MLB (as outlined by the tribune) last year, attendance was dropping dangerously low. The franchise had lost fans from the previous year for eight consecutive seasons. They had lost 56% of the attendance since the end of the 2006 season. The decision was made in part to do something to bring back the season ticket holders. Obviously it hasn't worked on the field. Patience is a virtue, Kenny with his "football mentality," and his "go for broke" approach just doesn't have the capacity to wait three or four or five years so it's always "rebuild and contend" or "retool and contend" and that usually does not work. At least history shows it hasn't worked for this franchise for almost a decade. "It's time" for drastic changes at all levels in the front office. New blood, new ideas are desperately needed. Mark The BALTA SUPREMACY Yes, if you look at all of those free agents now, none of them would be perceived to be worth more and LaRoche has fallen off precipitously. Duke was a reach based on one year of results in the NL. Like Noesi, a pitcher the White Sox had actually torched. Bonifacio and Beckham have ended up blocking those young infielders that may or may not be part-timers/utility guys in the end. The odds of getting back the equivalent of Shark's compensation to the A's honestly aren't that great, and ironically, the player we complained about the most early, Cabrera, is closest to league average of all the deals but I'm still not sure he's a player that would be claimed on waivers. Besides where Balta noted, some other major miscalculations: 1) The presence of Shark alone would bring in fans. 2) Rodon was closer to 2012 Chris Sale than what we've seen out of him. 3) The failures of both Matt Davidson and Erik Johnson might be permanent ones. 4) The bullpen implosions of 2014 and 2006-07 reminded KW of the need for the Linebrink/Dotel acquisitions, so naturally he went the opposite of logic and overpaid a veteran in Robertson. So we jumped one or two years too early with Robertson and reached for Duke. 5) Between the TJ injury to Saladino, Sanchez's poor offensive performance, Leury/Nieto, etc.,...and the lack of evidence that Beck, Thompson, Anderson and Hawkins would be either regular contributors or able to be counted on before 2017, you can see where/why KW jumped the gun there as well, because there wasn't the patience to kick the rebuild two years down the road...and the presence of all those players like Sale, Abreu, Quintana, Eaton and Ramirez (or so the thought went) all "in their primes" was just too tempting to waste. Then there were the noted miscalculations on Flowers, Conor, Ramirez and likely Avisail. Looking back on it now, we would have been much better off simply going with Johnson/Beck/Bassitt at the back end of the rotation. Semien/Davidson would have started the year at 3b, with Sanchez at 2b...while waiting on Micah and Saladino to both be 100% ready for the big leagues. Thompson and Avi would have both started in the outfield, with a rotating DH concept...sharing AB's between Semien, Eaton, Davidson, Avi, Abreu, Thompson, maybe even Phegley or Ravelo, etc. While it's easy to say now someone like Grandal or Cervelli should have been targeted at catcher (Martin would have been premature), it needed to be addressed first and foremost (the Soto signing was the only one that actually worked out). The bullpen would have been another mess...the losers between Beck/Bassitt/Johnson for Shark's spot would have been there along with Petricka, Putnam and the one small addition would have been a veteran/ journeyman lefty from outside the organization, like a Franklin Morales or Breslow type. There's no doubt that team would have ended up with a win total in the 70's, but we would: 1) Have a much better idea about rotation needs for 2016. 2) The probability that Semien's bat could stick at 3b, 2b or DH. Or Davidson/Ravelo at 1b/3b/dh. 3) That Sanchez, Saladino or Micah would win 2b. 4) That Thompson would be more than a 1 war outfielder and surprise us offensively/defensively (or both). At least we would have the financial resources to do something in free agency. Of course, even assuming all the young pitchers worked out and you didn't need another veteran starter (Shields could have been plucked now for 50-75 cents on the dollar)...you're still stuck with Heyward, Gordon and Cespedes as the big-name outfield additions and no easy answers for 3b (assuming Semien and Davidson both failed) and catching. Let's be optimistic with Marcus for a moment. In this scenario, we're a catcher and probably two corner outfielders/DH (essentially two big bats) short. We might or might not need a closer, but probably/likely. This is now when Puig for excess pitching makes sense....a Cargo claim...spending on one of those three fa names, trading for another from the talent base of a much deeper organization than we have today and hoping/praying we can find the closer and catching pieces to fit. Of course, in this Balta Scenario, we could convert Danish or Montas to the bullpen and fasttrack them. We'd have two additional draft picks in the second and third round with upside. Maybe we make that big play in international free agency for Cubans Moncada, Eddy Julio Ramirez, Alvares, etc. More franchise what ifs for The Lipper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 5, 2015 -> 08:40 PM) But looking beyond how they got Bryant...look at the other parts of that list and how they got them. With Rizzo they didn't just defraud the Padres, they did something really important. They gave him time to struggle. They gave him the 2013 season where he hit .233 and they didn't say "this 23 year old is going to be a key part right now and he's going to carry us to the division". They picked up Arrieta and didn't discard him when he put up a 1.5 WHIP in his first 7 starts at Iowa. They gave a talented but failed 27 year old a chance to see if he could turn into anything. They did that with enough guys and turned one of them into an ace quality pitcher. Why were they able to do that? Because in addition to piling up draft picks like Bryant...they also piled up castoffs from teams that were ready to "win now". From teams that did "all in" deals and left themselves no room for the guys that weren't 100% ready to go right now. They picked up scrap heap guys and used their other big advantage - time - to turn as many of them into contributing, controlled, long term pieces as they could because they didn't insist that their team was ready to go because it had to be. I fail to see how what they did with Rizzo and Arrieta is special or unique in any way. Rizzo was always a highly regarded talent, and struggles at the MLB level at 23 are hardly surprising. He was always going to get time to struggle whether the Cubs were rebuilding or not. How much time did we give Beckham to struggle? How about Viciedo? The Phillies have been giving Domonic Brown a lot of time to struggle, every team does this, especially with guys who have Rizzo's talent level. The White Sox have done this plenty in the last 10 years, often to the point of getting criticized for giving too long of a leash (see Beckham again), and the only true rebuilding year we've had in the last decade was 2014. Even this year we've shown plenty of patience with guys like Sanchez. How many teams would have cut their losses after his performance the first 6 weeks, and these guys don't have the talent that Rizzo does. As for Arrieta, the move the Cubs made with him is the same move that every team makes every year. Teams take flyers on talented pitchers all the time that haven't put it together yet. How is letting Arrieta struggle in Iowa different than us continuing to give Drabek starts in Charlotte? I just fail to see how those two guys' successes were from rebuilding, you can do those exact same types of moves while trying to compete (and the White Sox have a lot). We had plenty of time to develop Gordon Beckham but look how that turned out. Many of the Cubs' young hitters are struggling right now and they're no longer rebuilding. They're still going to give them time to struggle. I don't see the difference between now and when Rizzo was struggling too, it's the same idea. Edited August 6, 2015 by OmarComing25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautox Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I still don't feel we need a complete rebuild. One because there isn't a farm system out there that could supply the necessary pieces to acquire the likes of Sale, Abreu and Quintana and two because while we're bad this year we're not so broken that it can't be fixed. A couple of things I was clamoring for Grandal to be picked up desperately by this front office and everything in his advanced metrics in addition to health and getting the hell out of SD pointed to an insane amount of positive regression which i pointed out extensively in offseason posts. In addition to that I wanted the sox to go after Kang and Maeda hard, and while they did some home work with Maeda they dropped the ball on Kang, He very well could've been a solution at 3B, SS, 2B for us as well, and this isn't revisionist history either, for the amount of money spent on a known albeit s***ty entity in Bonifacio they could've had Kang. My hope is they'll do their collective homework with the KBO going forward but i won't hold my breath. Very few on this board predicted us to be atop any standings if anything I would say the majority of us felt that we could possibly be a dark horse if everything broke right, and honestly even with our offense being nearly historically bad we're still not out of the play off picture at 4 back. The sox going forward need to be patient with Thompson, the Johnsons' and Avi unless they're going to spend on an big time free agent like Heyward. Our pitching is good and will continue to get better, I would let shark walk this offseason and pick up the pick. Rodon, Fulmer, Johnson and Montas are going to have to take their lumps in the majors like everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (beautox @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 06:10 AM) I still don't feel we need a complete rebuild. One because there isn't a farm system out there that could supply the necessary pieces to acquire the likes of Sale, Abreu and Quintana and two because while we're bad this year we're not so broken that it can't be fixed. A couple of things I was clamoring for Grandal to be picked up desperately by this front office and everything in his advanced metrics in addition to health and getting the hell out of SD pointed to an insane amount of positive regression which i pointed out extensively in offseason posts. In addition to that I wanted the sox to go after Kang and Maeda hard, and while they did some home work with Maeda they dropped the ball on Kang, He very well could've been a solution at 3B, SS, 2B for us as well, and this isn't revisionist history either, for the amount of money spent on a known albeit s***ty entity in Bonifacio they could've had Kang. My hope is they'll do their collective homework with the KBO going forward but i won't hold my breath. Very few on this board predicted us to be atop any standings if anything I would say the majority of us felt that we could possibly be a dark horse if everything broke right, and honestly even with our offense being nearly historically bad we're still not out of the play off picture at 4 back. The sox going forward need to be patient with Thompson, the Johnsons' and Avi unless they're going to spend on an big time free agent like Heyward. Our pitching is good and will continue to get better, I would let shark walk this offseason and pick up the pick. Rodon, Fulmer, Johnson and Montas are going to have to take their lumps in the majors like everyone. excellent post ref the bold, i love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 02:09 AM) I fail to see how what they did with Rizzo and Arrieta is special or unique in any way. Rizzo was always a highly regarded talent, and struggles at the MLB level at 23 are hardly surprising. He was always going to get time to struggle whether the Cubs were rebuilding or not. How much time did we give Beckham to struggle? How about Viciedo? The Phillies have been giving Domonic Brown a lot of time to struggle, every team does this, especially with guys who have Rizzo's talent level. The White Sox have done this plenty in the last 10 years, often to the point of getting criticized for giving too long of a leash (see Beckham again), and the only true rebuilding year we've had in the last decade was 2014. Even this year we've shown plenty of patience with guys like Sanchez. How many teams would have cut their losses after his performance the first 6 weeks, and these guys don't have the talent that Rizzo does. As for Arrieta, the move the Cubs made with him is the same move that every team makes every year. Teams take flyers on talented pitchers all the time that haven't put it together yet. How is letting Arrieta struggle in Iowa different than us continuing to give Drabek starts in Charlotte? I just fail to see how those two guys' successes were from rebuilding, you can do those exact same types of moves while trying to compete (and the White Sox have a lot). We had plenty of time to develop Gordon Beckham but look how that turned out. Many of the Cubs' young hitters are struggling right now and they're no longer rebuilding. They're still going to give them time to struggle. I don't see the difference between now and when Rizzo was struggling too, it's the same idea. It's not unique or special except when you look at a team like the White Sox where they have a talented right fielder who started the season at age 23 and who we were counting on to be the #5 hitter on a contending team so much that we traded away a bunch of pieces for a starter with 1 year before free agency. Or when you look at a team like the White Sox counting on a 24 year old 2b to leapfrog over AAA almost completely and be a key contributor to the lineup on a contending team. Or when you look at the White Sox calling up a 22 year old starter with like 25 innings out of college and expecting him to be a key piece in the rotation on a contending team. Not every player you give time to develop is going to succeed. Listing names of guys who failed doesn't mean that you will never find guys who are late bloomers. If Drabek doesn't succeed in AAA it doesn't make Jake Arrieta no longer exist. If Avi Garcia remains a .675 OPS hitter for the rest of his career Anthony Rizzo doesn't suddenly vanish from existence. The thing they did that is different from what we did is they gave guys a chance to struggle. When guys didn't work out, they weren't screwed by it. When guys needed time to become good players, they weren't suddenly trying to figure out what to do with the big player they traded for who will become a free agent at the end of the year. Their worst mistake out of that time was going to the FA market for one big name pitcher in a way that totally didn't fit what they were doing otherwise, and even then they didn't give up a draft pick to sign him like we did with two positions this year. When our 2b position guys turned out to need a couple months to grow into big league hitters it majorly screwed us. When our 23 year old wasn't ready to carry a roster it was exceptionally damaging. Those were things that people should have seen coming easily. Those were positions where we needed to recognize - "hey, we're not quite there yet, let's give these guys time to struggle and see what they become". And maybe even "let's look into backup plans, keep acquiring talent that isn't quite there because we don't know what every guy will do." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 12:09 AM) I fail to see how what they did with Rizzo and Arrieta is special or unique in any way. Rizzo was always a highly regarded talent, and struggles at the MLB level at 23 are hardly surprising. He was always going to get time to struggle whether the Cubs were rebuilding or not. How much time did we give Beckham to struggle? How about Viciedo? The Phillies have been giving Domonic Brown a lot of time to struggle, every team does this, especially with guys who have Rizzo's talent level. The White Sox have done this plenty in the last 10 years, often to the point of getting criticized for giving too long of a leash (see Beckham again), and the only true rebuilding year we've had in the last decade was 2014. Even this year we've shown plenty of patience with guys like Sanchez. How many teams would have cut their losses after his performance the first 6 weeks, and these guys don't have the talent that Rizzo does. As for Arrieta, the move the Cubs made with him is the same move that every team makes every year. Teams take flyers on talented pitchers all the time that haven't put it together yet. How is letting Arrieta struggle in Iowa different than us continuing to give Drabek starts in Charlotte? I just fail to see how those two guys' successes were from rebuilding, you can do those exact same types of moves while trying to compete (and the White Sox have a lot). We had plenty of time to develop Gordon Beckham but look how that turned out. Many of the Cubs' young hitters are struggling right now and they're no longer rebuilding. They're still going to give them time to struggle. I don't see the difference between now and when Rizzo was struggling too, it's the same idea. It's what we did with Jenks, Santos, DeAza, Gillaspie, Carlos Quentin, Quintana, Putnam, Humber, Noesi, Drabeck, Paulino, etc. Even Montas was essentially a lottery ticket. Alexei was a flier like Kang for his first contract. The Cubs have simply done it better (recently) with Arrieta, Hammel, Garza and Feldman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 07:27 AM) It's not unique or special except when you look at a team like the White Sox where they have a talented right fielder who started the season at age 23 and who we were counting on to be the #5 hitter on a contending team so much that we traded away a bunch of pieces for a starter with 1 year before free agency. Or when you look at a team like the White Sox counting on a 24 year old 2b to leapfrog over AAA almost completely and be a key contributor to the lineup on a contending team. Or when you look at the White Sox calling up a 22 year old starter with like 25 innings out of college and expecting him to be a key piece in the rotation on a contending team. Not every player you give time to develop is going to succeed. Listing names of guys who failed doesn't mean that you will never find guys who are late bloomers. If Drabek doesn't succeed in AAA it doesn't make Jake Arrieta no longer exist. If Avi Garcia remains a .675 OPS hitter for the rest of his career Anthony Rizzo doesn't suddenly vanish from existence. The thing they did that is different from what we did is they gave guys a chance to struggle. When guys didn't work out, they weren't screwed by it. When guys needed time to become good players, they weren't suddenly trying to figure out what to do with the big player they traded for who will become a free agent at the end of the year. Their worst mistake out of that time was going to the FA market for one big name pitcher in a way that totally didn't fit what they were doing otherwise, and even then they didn't give up a draft pick to sign him like we did with two positions this year. When our 2b position guys turned out to need a couple months to grow into big league hitters it majorly screwed us. When our 23 year old wasn't ready to carry a roster it was exceptionally damaging. Those were things that people should have seen coming easily. Those were positions where we needed to recognize - "hey, we're not quite there yet, let's give these guys time to struggle and see what they become". And maybe even "let's look into backup plans, keep acquiring talent that isn't quite there because we don't know what every guy will do." You can argue they actually gave Beckham and Vicideo too much time. The problem is pulling the plug so quickly on the likes of Semien, Micah, Erik Johnson, etc. That and all the position changes we've put guys through trying to shoehorn them into major league roster holes. Plus, it's not like Olt, Junior Lake, Baez and Alcantara set the world on fire. Bryant, Soler and Russell are all taking their lumps. Schwarber has been the most surprising to me...and there were plenty of skeptics on draft days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 07:27 AM) It's not unique or special except when you look at a team like the White Sox where they have a talented right fielder who started the season at age 23 and who we were counting on to be the #5 hitter on a contending team so much that we traded away a bunch of pieces for a starter with 1 year before free agency. Or when you look at a team like the White Sox counting on a 24 year old 2b to leapfrog over AAA almost completely and be a key contributor to the lineup on a contending team. Or when you look at the White Sox calling up a 22 year old starter with like 25 innings out of college and expecting him to be a key piece in the rotation on a contending team. Not every player you give time to develop is going to succeed. Listing names of guys who failed doesn't mean that you will never find guys who are late bloomers. If Drabek doesn't succeed in AAA it doesn't make Jake Arrieta no longer exist. If Avi Garcia remains a .675 OPS hitter for the rest of his career Anthony Rizzo doesn't suddenly vanish from existence. The thing they did that is different from what we did is they gave guys a chance to struggle. When guys didn't work out, they weren't screwed by it. When guys needed time to become good players, they weren't suddenly trying to figure out what to do with the big player they traded for who will become a free agent at the end of the year. Their worst mistake out of that time was going to the FA market for one big name pitcher in a way that totally didn't fit what they were doing otherwise, and even then they didn't give up a draft pick to sign him like we did with two positions this year. When our 2b position guys turned out to need a couple months to grow into big league hitters it majorly screwed us. When our 23 year old wasn't ready to carry a roster it was exceptionally damaging. Those were things that people should have seen coming easily. Those were positions where we needed to recognize - "hey, we're not quite there yet, let's give these guys time to struggle and see what they become". And maybe even "let's look into backup plans, keep acquiring talent that isn't quite there because we don't know what every guy will do." You can argue they actually gave Beckham and Vicideo too much time. The problem is pulling the plug so quickly on the likes of Semien, Micah, Erik Johnson, etc. That and all the position changes we've put guys through trying to shoehorn them into major league roster holes. Plus, it's not like Olt, Junior Lake, Baez and Alcantara set the world on fire. Bryant, Soler and Russell are all taking their lumps. Schwarber has been the most surprising to me...and there were plenty of skeptics on draft day. Edited August 6, 2015 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 08:48 AM) You can argue they actually gave Beckham and Vicideo too much time. The problem is pulling the plug so quickly on the likes of Semien, Micah, Erik Johnson, etc. That and all the position changes we've put guys through trying to shoehorn them into major league roster holes. Plus, it's not like Olt, Junior Lake, Baez and Alcantara set the world on fire. Bryant, Soler and Russell are all taking their lumps. Schwarber has been the most surprising to me...and there were plenty of skeptics on draft day. How was the plug pulled too quickly on these two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 09:01 AM) How was the plug pulled too quickly on these two? And the funny thing is, in June and July, Semien was a worse player than Carlos Sanchez. Anyone can look it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 09:06 AM) And the funny thing is, in June and July, Semien was a worse player than Carlos Sanchez. Anyone can look it up. He was batting like .220 last season when he was sent down, and he wasnt getting at bats. It was the smart thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id...4/marcus-semien He had an 818 ops in September. Generally 23 year olds don't excel in their first go-around in the big leagues, and he was bounced around the infield throughout his minor league career. Even if he wasn't playing 2b or 3b everyday, he has a 776 ops against lhp, so he would have been the perfect platoon candidate with LaRoche...not to mention playing half his games in one of the worst hitter's parks in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 09:24 AM) http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/gamelog/_/id...4/marcus-semien He had an 818 ops in September. Generally 23 year olds don't excel in their first go-around in the big leagues, and he was bounced around the infield throughout his minor league career. Even if he wasn't playing 2b or 3b everyday, he has a 776 ops against lhp, so he would have been the perfect platoon candidate with LaRoche...not to mention playing half his games in one of the worst hitter's parks in baseball. Oh yea, September call up numbers are to be taken at their face value. And Semien sure has proven that wrong this season with is 100 error pace and rapidly falling batting average, slugging percentage, and OPS SOMEONE CALL DAN JOHNSON Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 08:31 AM) Oh yea, September call up numbers are to be taken at their face value. And Semien sure has proven that wrong this season with is 100 error pace and rapidly falling batting average, slugging percentage, and OPS SOMEONE CALL DAN JOHNSON Brilliant, Adam LaRoche has an ops not even close to Semien, but we wouldn't be better off with a 23 year old at DH making close to the league minimum. You probably thought Royce Clayton was a much better defender than Valentin because Jose had a lot more errors. Why do we have advanced metrics if it's 2015 and we're still going by error totals? I guess some on this board know more about baseball than Billy Beane. Edited August 6, 2015 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Aug 6, 2015 -> 09:31 AM) Oh yea, September call up numbers are to be taken at their face value. And Semien sure has proven that wrong this season with is 100 error pace and rapidly falling batting average, slugging percentage, and OPS SOMEONE CALL DAN JOHNSON Also love the park excuse. I wonder why his road numbers are worse than his home numbers. Semien has been one of the worst players in baseball, if not the worst since Memorial day. Edited August 6, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.