2015-2016 NBA Thread

[shipps]

chisoxfn, were you on 670 tonight? talking about the bulls with lawrence holmes?

 

LOL somehow I wouldnt be surprised if this was true. That sounds like a typical in the life of Gage moment.

[Chisoxfn]

chisoxfn, were you on 670 tonight? talking about the bulls with lawrence holmes?

Not me. If I was, I'd have been saying how they should ditch Hoiberg and Gar at a minimum, so I'm going to guess it wasn't me. I'm 10000 percent over Gar and pretty much 100% over Hoiberg. I know that Hoiberg isn't going to go anywhere.

[Chisoxfn]

How much of the Butler being a leader / rubbing people the wrong way is an issue because of Jimmy vs. an issue because guys who were better and were used to being better than him aren't now and thus, a little jealous / still look at him as the little guy.

 

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/04/12/report..._medium=twitter

 

Some players, and I’m not saying it wasn’t a family commitment, but there were some – I know at least one player in particular, a starter – who felt like he was a bit bothered by the fact that Jimmy wasn’t on the plane. And it was a misperception. He felt it was emblematic of a little bit of the preferential treatment that a lot of people say Butler’s been getting now that he’s emerged as the best players on the Bulls from the front office and things like that.

 

There’s a division. There’s all types of dysfunction in Chicago. There’s kind of a division in that locker room.

 

The younger players see Butler as the leader. He’s clearly been their best player the last two years. They see him as the leader.

 

The other guys, the veterans who’ve been there, it’s not so much of disrespect of Jimmy, but they don’t see him as the team as the team leader. They remember when you were averaging two points a game.

 

You think about Jimmy and how he took Dougy under his win. You think about him playing hard and putting in tons of work and leading by example from that perspective. Two major, positive checks from a "leadership" perspective. On the flip side, you think of him publicly calling out Fred, that would be a knock. I've seen some comments from MJD which talk about his concerns on offense. I've always thought MJD was a pretty astute guy and he basically said he's not sure how they will figure out how to solve the offense. Not sure if that is a shot at either Butler / Rose / Hoiberg or more just a shot that the way they play, it just isn't going to work together.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

How much cap room will the Bulls have to work with if they let Gasol and Noah walk?

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

http://www.csnchicago.com/bulls/overcalcul...ng-bulls-season

 

In that Vincent Goodwill piece, it talks about the Kings/Bulls deadline deal that didn't happen and also about how Bulls/Celtics talked about a Butler trade but the Bulls insisted on Jae Crowder and Boston balked. Interesting stuff.

[Chisoxfn]

How much cap room will the Bulls have to work with if they let Gasol and Noah walk?

A lot. The real wild card is if they thought they could get Durant and adjust the team to build around him (whether he'd want to play / would fit with Jimmy, I don't know) but you could use the various chips to develop the team. Probability / odds of success of that happening are low, but you also have to remember they could likely move Rose and if so they'd have massive money. In this free agent class, massive money doesn't help (as teams will overpay) unless you are getting a bonafide star. It is also why I'd have a hard time moving Butler. He works extremely hard, has done nothing but get better every year, and is signed to an affordable contract (especially given the expanding cap).

[southsider2k5]

http://www.csnchicago.com/bulls/overcalcul...ng-bulls-season

 

In that Vincent Goodwill piece, it talks about the Kings/Bulls deadline deal that didn't happen and also about how Bulls/Celtics talked about a Butler trade but the Bulls insisted on Jae Crowder and Boston balked. Interesting stuff.

 

Tell me who this sounds like

 

The players wanted the freedom, but didn’t realize it would come at the expense of winning. They didn’t miss Thibodeau per se, but they missed the structure at times, the way Thibodeau “thought for them” as opposed to Hoiberg wanting them to think for themselves.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Tell me who this sounds like

 

 

Marc Trestman?

[Chisoxfn]

Tell me who this sounds like

Technically, Phil did everything in his power to make players think for themselves as well. Trestman was awful and did a lot of bad things. Hoiberg might be that guy and there are similarities, but in the case of Marc, he screwed it up despite coming into a system where the players hadn't been empowered by management. Trestman replaced Lovie, but it wasn't as if the front office told the players a year before to ignore Lovie's message cause he's gone anyway and thus you immediately set a very very poor message that would be difficult for any new coach to enter.

 

Honestly, the situation Gar created by doing that, created a situation where, in my opinion, only the best and most powerful established coaches could succeed. Bringing in a rookie NBA coach into that mess was a recipe for failure (even if Hoiberg was the second coming of Phil or Red Auerbach). And this is coming from someone who has bashed Hoiberg excessively, the Bulls certainly didn't hand him any favors by neutering Thibbodeau the year before.

 

Only way this changes now is by either players changing there ways as a result of the sting of missing the playoffs (plus some various roster moves to help change the culture and bring in new players who know Butler as nothing but the current star that he is and only know, in a Bull uniform, Hoiberg's ways). I do think the finally absolutely failing when having full freedom and laissez faire might help set a bit of the tone. My guess is the leaders next year will be Noah & Butler and I would hope the two of them would work together. Taj might stick around but I do really believe that Rose is gone.

[chw42]

How much of the Butler being a leader / rubbing people the wrong way is an issue because of Jimmy vs. an issue because guys who were better and were used to being better than him aren't now and thus, a little jealous / still look at him as the little guy.

 

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/04/12/report..._medium=twitter

 

 

 

You think about Jimmy and how he took Dougy under his win. You think about him playing hard and putting in tons of work and leading by example from that perspective. Two major, positive checks from a "leadership" perspective. On the flip side, you think of him publicly calling out Fred, that would be a knock. I've seen some comments from MJD which talk about his concerns on offense. I've always thought MJD was a pretty astute guy and he basically said he's not sure how they will figure out how to solve the offense. Not sure if that is a shot at either Butler / Rose / Hoiberg or more just a shot that the way they play, it just isn't going to work together.

 

Maurice Jones Drew?

[chw42]

http://www.csnchicago.com/bulls/overcalcul...ng-bulls-season

 

In that Vincent Goodwill piece, it talks about the Kings/Bulls deadline deal that didn't happen and also about how Bulls/Celtics talked about a Butler trade but the Bulls insisted on Jae Crowder and Boston balked. Interesting stuff.

 

Crowder's turned into a good player this year, but I don't think he's near Jimmy's level yet. Sure there were other parts to the deal, but I think Boston missed out on a pretty good trade there. I sure as hell wouldn't have been happy trading Butler. We finally developed a good wing player and we want to trade him away cause he didn't like the coach and maybe rubbed some players the wrong way? The NBA's a superstar league, and Jimmy's as close to that as we have right now. There's no way we should be letting a rookie head coach or a couple of over the hill veterans determine his importance to this franchise.

[Chisoxfn]

Crowder's turned into a good player this year, but I don't think he's near Jimmy's level yet. Sure there were other parts to the deal, but I think Boston missed out on a pretty good trade there. I sure as hell wouldn't have been happy trading Butler. We finally developed a good wing player and we want to trade him away cause he didn't like the coach and maybe rubbed some players the wrong way? The NBA's a superstar league, and Jimmy's as close to that as we have right now. There's no way we should be letting a rookie head coach or a couple of over the hill veterans determine his importance to this franchise.

Correction, he's rubbed certain veterans the wrong way, most likely those same vets who remember him as being a bench / role player, non-high pick and have a hard time being in his shadow. I agree with you, the Boston deal would have been awful. Only deal I'm making is where you are getting some top 15 player or guy you think can be an elite top 15 NBA player (i.e., top 2 pick where you like the possibilities or young player(s) you project.

[Balta1701]

How much cap room will the Bulls have to work with if they let Gasol and Noah walk?

Assuming the Bulls do not pick up options on Bairstow and Feliciano, the Bulls will have a total payroll of $65.71 million committed as of now. The cap is predicted to climb to the $90 million range. Durant's estimated 1st year deal comes in at $24.9 million, so the Bulls basically are right on the edge of that depending on exactly where the cap is.

[bmags]

Keep in mind, what likely would have been coming back was picks, as Boston has unprotected Brooklyn Nets picks this year.

[Kyyle23]

Goff pretty much saying that Gar Forman will not be employed by the Bulls after this season is over

[Y2Jimmy0]

Goff pretty much saying that Gar Forman will not be employed by the Bulls after this season is over

 

 

Did he say that on the radio today? Transition?

[Rowand44]

Keep in mind, what likely would have been coming back was picks, as Boston has unprotected Brooklyn Nets picks this year.

I would have made that Jimmy deal in a heartbeat.

[Kyyle23]

Did he say that on the radio today? Transition?

 

Yea, during the show, they discussed it a little bit during transition also. He stopped short of guaranteeing it, but he said he will be extremely surprised if Forman is still the GM

[Chisoxfn]

I would have made that Jimmy deal in a heartbeat.

That plus other picks and Crowder makes it a very interesting deal. I don't know that I do it purely for the Nets pick as we aren't taking about an amazing draft. Maybe if the Nets win the lotto and you now know you have the #1 or #2 pick and you've evaluated and you are comfortable, do you evaluate it.

[Chisoxfn]

Yea, during the show, they discussed it a little bit during transition also. He stopped short of guaranteeing it, but he said he will be extremely surprised if Forman is still the GM

As soon as KC started putting this Pax wanted this and Gar wanted that story, it told me there was a real probability of something going down. I know in that same piece, KC said he expected things to stay the same, but If that was the case, I don't see why someone within the front office leaks that.

[LDF]

Technically, Phil did everything in his power to make players think for themselves as well. Trestman was awful and did a lot of bad things. Hoiberg might be that guy and there are similarities, but in the case of Marc, he screwed it up despite coming into a system where the players hadn't been empowered by management. Trestman replaced Lovie, but it wasn't as if the front office told the players a year before to ignore Lovie's message cause he's gone anyway and thus you immediately set a very very poor message that would be difficult for any new coach to enter.

 

Honestly, the situation Gar created by doing that, created a situation where, in my opinion, only the best and most powerful established coaches could succeed. Bringing in a rookie NBA coach into that mess was a recipe for failure (even if Hoiberg was the second coming of Phil or Red Auerbach). And this is coming from someone who has bashed Hoiberg excessively, the Bulls certainly didn't hand him any favors by neutering Thibbodeau the year before.

 

Only way this changes now is by either players changing there ways as a result of the sting of missing the playoffs (plus some various roster moves to help change the culture and bring in new players who know Butler as nothing but the current star that he is and only know, in a Bull uniform, Hoiberg's ways). I do think the finally absolutely failing when having full freedom and laissez faire might help set a bit of the tone. My guess is the leaders next year will be Noah & Butler and I would hope the two of them would work together. Taj might stick around but I do really believe that Rose is gone.

 

this is a great post and analyzes of the whole mess.

[Kyyle23]

Mark Schanowski basically just confirmed what Goff said on the Score

[Quin]

I really want to know the details of the Pau-Kings deal.

[southsider2k5]

I really want to know the details of the Pau-Kings deal.

 

This is what was said in the earlier Goodwill article.

 

With Gasol, the Bulls were onboard for a deal with Sacramento at the deadline, according to league sources. It did involve Gasol, Tony Snell and Kirk Hinrich (later traded to Atlanta) for Kosta Koufos and Ben McLemore.

 

It’s widely believed the Bulls pulled out of the trade but league sources say the Kings pulled out first when the Philadelphia 76ers, a team helping facilitate the deal, wanted a second-round pick from the Bulls and Kings.

 

The Kings balked at that prospect, along with the Bulls wanting them to lower the Top 10 protection of the 1st round draft pick the Kings owe the Bulls from the Luol Deng trade in 2014.

 

Once that scenario was laid out, the Bulls declined to go further with the deal and rolled the dice with Gasol for the rest of the season, as he’ll opt out of his contract and hit free agency this summer.

[Quin]

This is what was said in the earlier Goodwill article.

 

So the pick was going to be lowered.

 

Damn.