2015-2016 NBA Thread

[Kyyle23]

They did. And I like how AustinIllini dodged the question of why the Bulls are a whole lot worse than last year with Thibs. And how the minutes haven't changed under Hoiberg, the injuries are as bad if not worse and the only thing that has changed is the team is worse on offense, defense, point differential and wins. How'd they go from the only threat to Cleveland to not knowing if they'll make the playoffs. He tried to implement the Spurs offense and the players couldn't pick it up or wouldn't pick it up. Same with Hoiball. Thibs became a victim of his own success. He constantly overachieved.

 

Here's some analysis from FiveThirty8 for ya'll.

 

 

 

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the-bul...in-nba-history/

 

There's a reason why Golden State and San Antonio are asking him for consultations. Also, the Nets tried to offer him the job after Lionel and King were fired, but he didn't want to make a decision right now and he wants to coach either the Knicks, Lakers or wait until a better opening is available. Let us not forget how the Bulls dicked around with his firing too. Waiting waiting and more waiting.

 

And whether Thibs was right or wrong about leaking stuff to JVG messed up his relationship with Jerry. It's funny how GarPax are always about not leaking stuff yet they let Butler and Noah run rampant. And they always leak stuff to the media about how Derrick is cleared to play when he wasn't mentally ready, how they say he's out for general soreness or how Deng is cleared to play, but it's up to his pain threshold when the guy had a broken foot.

 

The basis of Thibs getting fired and that relationship turning sour was all Gar Forman. The guy was pissed because he wasn't getting enough credit for 2010 (how anyone can complain about not getting enough credit when you got backdoor swept in the ECF is anyone's guess) and after that, Gar started trying to consolidate power. The whole Ron Adams thing was a power play that Gar won. Funny how Adams is coaching for the defending champs, is a basketball lifer, and never had any issues with anyone in basketball but Gar. He was named Assistant Coach of the Year last year. And Boston sang his praises when hiring him. Also, Adams was the coach that Rose trusted the most.

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/10/...?event=event12#

 

That's when the leaking really started about how Thibs is stubborn, didn't want to change, didn't want to adjust the offense and he was the reason for losing as if the roster makeup and the constant bs injuries his and now Hoiberg's team is dealing with. Thibs tried different things. Getting the offense to run through Noah and getting Taj to shoot the corner 3(yes, and this was in Zach Lowe's podcast with him too).

 

And last, but not least, was the undermining of him by installing Jen Swanson, making it the worst known secret that Hoiberg would be the next coach of the Bulls a full summer before Thibs was let go and by putting unrealistic expectations on Thibs. Tell me how Jen Swanson is doing now. Tell me how Hoiberg is managing the minutes soooo much better than Thibs and is preventing injuries and keeping guys fresh.

 

Thibs will never be an employee of the Chicago Bulls because Jerry Reinsdorf who originally hired Thibs when GarPax wanted Mike Brown, Lawrence Frank and Doug Collins, saw things Gar's way as he muddied the waters and made Jerry see things his way. He's the ultimate suck up.

 

 

 

PS, wanna know why the Bulls don't make trades? It's because of Gar Forman's smug ass. And if Paul Shirley never took down his post on Gar Forman, you'd see how much of a jagoff the guy is.

 

Shirley took that post down? I wonder why

[knightni]

it all went into the crapper when Rose first got hurt, and this is not hang the whole blame on rose. this is the truth and all the incidentals that goes with it. the frustration, from both sides of management, the FO vs the coaching staff.

 

bottom line, the FO did not do its job. by getting a player who can fill in when rose was hurt. forcing the coach to get creative, and he did.

 

ref to airing the dirty laundry, that is FO and Gar, if i remember correctly. granted when thibs was asked about not getting a player that he needed, he told the reporters to talk to the bosses.

 

still, what else was he suppose to say???? btw, the rumor of Hoiberg coming to chi started several yrs earlier..... by whom???

 

it is all frustration and finger pointing. Thibs is a great coach, they should have blew up the team 3 or 4 yrs ago, before Noah got hurt. as long as rose contract is hanging around their neck, they were doomed.

You're blaming the front office for not finding a replacement player on an equal level to 2011 MVP Derrick Rose?

[Panerista]

They did. And I like how AustinIllini dodged the question of why the Bulls are a whole lot worse than last year with Thibs. And how the minutes haven't changed under Hoiberg, the injuries are as bad if not worse and the only thing that has changed is the team is worse on offense, defense, point differential and wins. How'd they go from the only threat to Cleveland to not knowing if they'll make the playoffs. He tried to implement the Spurs offense and the players couldn't pick it up or wouldn't pick it up. Same with Hoiball. Thibs became a victim of his own success. He constantly overachieved.

 

The Bulls FO rightly saw the writing on the wall. Thibodeau was never going to get out of the east and he was never going to let the team play bad enough to get a good draft pick. That's basketball irrelevance. Thibs would prohibit any rebuild and couldn't take the current squad to the finals, period. On top of that, Thibodeau wouldn't play the players Gar wanted him to play (McDermott rotted for a year).

 

The problem is, Hoiberg is not a good coach at the NBA level. For that, Gar deserves to be fired, but stop pretending that the Bulls had no reason to fire Thibodeau.

 

*The minutes haven't changed because Fred Hoiberg isn't very smart

*Over Thibs' tenure, the injuries were significantly worse than anything we have seen this year and I'm sure the FO thought Hoiberg would be better

 

What is so annoying is that I mostly agree with you: Gar needs to go. What bothers me is that you insist on calling me out when I have done nothing to you except ignore your ESPN First Take, no value added talking points.

Edited March 15, 2016 by AustinIllini

[LDF]

You're blaming the front office for not finding a replacement player on an equal level to 2011 MVP Derrick Rose?

 

no, but there are levels of players whose talent could have help with the sharp bite of loosing Rose and his talent.

[LDF]

The Bulls FO rightly saw the writing on the wall. Thibodeau was never going to get out of the east and he was never going to let the team play bad enough to get a good draft pick. That's basketball irrelevance. Thibs would prohibit any rebuild and couldn't take the current squad to the finals, period.

 

The problem is, Hoiberg is not a good coach at the NBA level. For that, Gar deserves to be fired, but stop pretending that the Bulls had no reason to fire Thibodeau.

 

Your talking points are straight out of first take. Throw out silly numbers, do no actual analysis, lose complete sight of the championship and what it takes to win in the NBA. I'm surprised you didn't say "quite frankly" or "let me say this" to solidify the SAS echo chamber you clearly are.

 

if you can see a similar of unfaltering loyalty that the owners have for their management people, even if they are in the wrong, with the way the sox have been run.

[Kyyle23]

no, but there are levels of players whose talent could have help with the sharp bite of loosing Rose and his talent.

 

Like who? Who were the Bulls going to sign that is good enough to cover the loss of Rose for basically 3 years? You are operating right now with the hindsight of what happened, GarPax have their faults but being able to predict they were going to lose Rose for that long and have a capable replacement waiting in the ready is just a ridiculous notion

[LDF]

Like who? Who were the Bulls going to sign that is good enough to cover the loss of Rose for basically 3 years? You are operating right now with the hindsight of what happened, GarPax have their faults but being able to predict they were going to lose Rose for that long and have a capable replacement waiting in the ready is just a ridiculous notion

 

or acquire the missing piece thru a trade.

 

barring that.......

 

are we not all working on the premise of hindsight and of opinions, including your????

[Kyyle23]

or acquire the missing piece thru a trade.

 

barring that.......

 

are we not all working on the premise of hindsight and of opinions, including your????

 

Hindsight doesnt change my opinion that the Bulls didnt have a magic crystal ball that could predict what happened to Rose, and allow them to acquire a magic player that could provide the same production

[southsider2k5]

Like who? Who were the Bulls going to sign that is good enough to cover the loss of Rose for basically 3 years? You are operating right now with the hindsight of what happened, GarPax have their faults but being able to predict they were going to lose Rose for that long and have a capable replacement waiting in the ready is just a ridiculous notion

 

Rose turning into Wil E Coyote is by far the biggest problem this franchise has had. They thought they had a legitimate MVP candidate going foward, and instead safes kept falling on his head. I don't care what team you are, you aren't surviving that. There is no preparing for that.

 

Does anyone think Golden State is where they are without Steph for basically 3 years? We all saw what happened in Cleveland without LeBron when he left.

[LDF]

Hindsight doesnt change my opinion that the Bulls didnt have a magic crystal ball that could predict what happened to Rose, and allow them to acquire a magic player that could provide the same production

hindsight is all we are doing here, and it is here that we are discussing chi bull news and opinions.

[Kyyle23]

hindsight is all we are doing here, and it is here that we are discussing chi bull news and opinions.

 

yea ok.

[Dick Allen]

The Bulls FO rightly saw the writing on the wall. Thibodeau was never going to get out of the east and he was never going to let the team play bad enough to get a good draft pick. That's basketball irrelevance. Thibs would prohibit any rebuild and couldn't take the current squad to the finals, period. On top of that, Thibodeau wouldn't play the players Gar wanted him to play (McDermott rotted for a year).

 

The problem is, Hoiberg is not a good coach at the NBA level. For that, Gar deserves to be fired, but stop pretending that the Bulls had no reason to fire Thibodeau.

 

*The minutes haven't changed because Fred Hoiberg isn't very smart

*Over Thibs' tenure, the injuries were significantly worse than anything we have seen this year and I'm sure the FO thought Hoiberg would be better

 

What is so annoying is that I mostly agree with you: Gar needs to go. What bothers me is that you insist on calling me out when I have done nothing to you except ignore your ESPN First Take, no value added talking points.

 

 

McDermott sucked and then got hurt. Now you are saying Thibs won too many games? Were they trying to win a championship or not?

 

For a guy who tells everyone how wrong they are, reading your fiction time and time again is beyond hysterical.

 

Blaming injuries on Thibs is a joke. They were hurt before he came, they keep getting hurt after he left. You think Gar has to go, but you fell for his Thibs narrative hook, line and sinker. There would have been no reason to fire Thibs if the Bulls did the correct thing and launched Gar instead. The team would be better off.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Dick Allen

[pettie4sox]

McDermott sucked and then got hurt. Now you are saying Thibs won too many games? Were they trying to win a championship or not?

 

For a guy who tells everyone how wrong they are, reading your fiction time and time again is beyond hysterical.

 

Blaming injuries on Thibs is a joke. They were hurt before he came, they keep getting hurt after he left. You think Gar has to go, but you fell for his Thibs narrative hook, line and sinker. There would have been no reason to fire Thibs if the Bulls did the correct thing and launched Gar instead. The team would be better off.

 

Ah s***, I'm agreeing with Dick Allen.

 

Hell has frozen over.

[Panerista]

McDermott sucked and then got hurt. Now you are saying Thibs won too many games? Were they trying to win a championship or not?

 

For a guy who tells everyone how wrong they are, reading your fiction time and time again is beyond hysterical.

 

Blaming injuries on Thibs is a joke. They were hurt before he came, they keep getting hurt after he left. You think Gar has to go, but you fell for his Thibs narrative hook, line and sinker. There would have been no reason to fire Thibs if the Bulls did the correct thing and launched Gar instead. The team would be better off.

What fiction? Gar Forman clearly thought the team could improve by moving on to a different coach. It didn't and Hoiberg should have been his last chance.

 

It's not hard.

[Jenksismyhero]

McDermott sucked and then got hurt. Now you are saying Thibs won too many games? Were they trying to win a championship or not?

 

For a guy who tells everyone how wrong they are, reading your fiction time and time again is beyond hysterical.

Blaming injuries on Thibs is a joke. They were hurt before he came, they keep getting hurt after he left. You think Gar has to go, but you fell for his Thibs narrative hook, line and sinker. There would have been no reason to fire Thibs if the Bulls did the correct thing and launched Gar instead. The team would be better off.

 

Nope. This team was a f***ing train wreck against a broken Cleveland team. They sucked under Thibs that last year. He lost the locker room. Blame that on Gar, I guess, but it's still a fact. It wasn't going to work going forward whether Gar was there or not. It was time for a change.

[Kyyle23]

Nope. This team was a f***ing train wreck against a broken Cleveland team. They sucked under Thibs that last year. He lost the locker room. Blame that on Gar, I guess, but it's still a fact. It wasn't going to work going forward whether Gar was there or not. It was time for a change.

 

That f***ing train wreck won 50 games, this current f***ing train wreck looks like it will be lucky to break 40

[Panerista]

That f***ing train wreck won 50 games, this current f***ing train wreck looks like it will be lucky to break 40

50 games and nowhere close to a championship

[Kyyle23]

50 games and nowhere close to a championship

 

And look how closer they are now, they have their puppet in place with a championship roster and all of the sudden those injuries that were Thibs fault and those crazy minutes that were Thibs fault haven't gone away. But the defense went away and the offense looks worse. Weird

[Panerista]

And look how closer they are now, they have their puppet in place with a championship roster and all of the sudden those injuries that were Thibs fault and those crazy minutes that were Thibs fault haven't gone away. But the defense went away and the offense looks worse. Weird

WHAT?!

 

 

We're talking about the Bulls! This was never a championship roster. At the very least, I would rather have a lottery pick than be an 8 seed.

[Kyyle23]

WHAT?!

 

 

We're talking about the Bulls! This was never a championship roster. At the very least, I would rather have a lottery pick than be an 8 seed.

 

Gars words, not mine

[Balta1701]

Gars words, not mine

He also didn't make any major deadline moves, consistent with that line of thought.

[Dick Allen]

Nope. This team was a f***ing train wreck against a broken Cleveland team. They sucked under Thibs that last year. He lost the locker room. Blame that on Gar, I guess, but it's still a fact. It wasn't going to work going forward whether Gar was there or not. It was time for a change.

If the reports of Gar sabotaging Thibs in the pre season half any truth, that argument holds no water. The fact is, the Bulls roster has been short ever since Rose got hurt. Expecting them to beat LeBron is kind of like expecting John Fox to make the playoffs his first season with the Bears. Thibs will be better off without Gar. Even KC Johnson called the Adams firing a Gar power play. It was stupid and the beginning of the end. But Gar sold it to Pax and JR and JR's son and it seems several fans. Popovich is probably the best coach going. He went 6 years in a row without going to the finals. I wonder why he didn't get replaced and trashed on his way out the door. Now the fools look like fools. The same guys get hurt, and they don't win as many games even with the only cool guy who would give Gar the time of day coaching them.

 

I hope some day JR at least in private apologizes to Thibs for being played by Gar.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

If the reports of Gar sabotaging Thibs in the pre season half any truth, that argument holds no water. The fact is, the Bulls roster has been short ever since Rose got hurt. Expecting them to beat LeBron is kind of like expecting John Fox to make the playoffs his first season with the Bears. Thibs will be better off without Gar. Even KC Johnson called the Adams firing a Gar power play. It was stupid and the beginning of the end. But Gar sold it to Pax and JR and JR's son and it seems several fans. Popovich is probably the best coach going. He went 6 years in a row without going to the finals. I wonder why he didn't get replaced and trashed on his way out the door.

here's the thing on the bolded - I'm genuinely not sure that's true. I look at a team like the 2013-2014 Bulls, with Deng still around, Noah at DPOY level, quality depth, Butler starting to develop into an all around threat, and I can't figure out how you could give Thibs a more perfect roster than that one...with the exception of the all star PG who is missing. About the same thing in 2012-2013 although Hamilton/Butler there is maybe a bit weaker. Those teams were built perfectly for Thibs, with the exception of Rose's injury.

[Dick Allen]

here's the thing on the bolded - I'm genuinely not sure that's true. I look at a team like the 2013-2014 Bulls, with Deng still around, Noah at DPOY level, quality depth, Butler starting to develop into an all around threat, and I can't figure out how you could give Thibs a more perfect roster than that one...with the exception of the all star PG who is missing. About the same thing in 2012-2013 although Hamilton/Butler there is maybe a bit weaker. Those teams were built perfectly for Thibs, with the exception of Rose's injury.

Yeah, their best player being out kind of screws the whole thing up. Thibs coached the Bulls for 5 seasons. The last 4 seasons, Rose played 100 games. I don't think there is a team in the NBA that overcomes their best player not playing that often.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Dick Allen

[LDF]

Yeah, their best player being out kind of screws the whole thing up. Thibs coached the Bulls for 5 seasons. The last 4 seasons, Rose played 100 games. I don't think there is a team in the NBA that overcomes their best player not playing that often.

 

and i would like to reiterate most of the opinion on here, even tho it was express in different way, the bulls were still competitive, and as you said, with their main superstar being hurt.

 

the person responsible for that, it was not the FO, it was thibs and how he manage to bring the whole team together.

 

~~~ edit

Edited March 15, 2016 by LDF