2015-2016 NBA Thread

[Chisoxfn]

Another Gar signature move.

 

If this team stayed healthy, or if this teamed played well enough, I could easily say, Gar you were right, the blame here was on Thibs. That was not the case at all. I don't know how anyone at this point can say they had no problem with the Bulls firing Thibs, but would find it wrong firing Gar and/or Pax. Does Jimmy Butler develop into the player he is without Thibs? You have to figure if he developed into the player under Hoiberg, Gar would be singing his praises, not leaking stuff to the press how most of the players didn't like playing for Thibs.

 

The hack job they did on Thibs out the door, and the way the team has not done any better this year, should be a huge embarrassment to the organization.

Absolutely. I am stunned Gar didn't make roster changes because it truly meant it would be very clear whether Gar was right or wrong regarding Thibs vs. Hoiberg. I still can't believe how JR got involved in the hatchet job at the end. I have to think Gar had everyone fooled (and by a lot of accounts, he's that type of guy). However, I'm sure it ultimately came down to Pax telling Jerry, it isn't as bad as described with Gar and probably even partly driven by hesitations from Pax to do this gig full time and at that point JR backed Pax (which shouldn't be any sort of a surprise). It isn't like Pax is Krause and I've heard plenty of Bulls players (current and former) say very positive things about Pax (oddly enough, don't know that I've ever heard a nice thing about Gar). Still amazes me that JR was that aggressive in his comments about Thibs. Might have also been the fact that the wound was fresh with Thibs (he had some leaks in the playoffs where he must have at that point, been 1000% committed to not coaching again in Chicago).

 

On an unrelated note, Bulls TV ratings are down 29% this year.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I don't really think Tom had issues. Other than you could say he should have done a better job getting along with Gar (but how do we know Gar didn't just totally sabotage him anyway). Gar seems like the "I'll throw anyone under the bus" possible type of guy. Who knows what he did to Tom that ultimately created the rift. All I know is Tom was a much better coach than Hoiberg and was one of the elite coaches in the league. Whomever gets him will be extremely lucky and I think in hindsight, Jerry has to realize the best course might have been to cut the middle man out (Gar) and see if Pax and Tom could have worked things out (essentially bought a year without Gar in the mix to see if it would help...especially based upon the reports that Thibs always, even to this day, respected Pax.

 

 

I disagree. I don't think Thibodeau ever wins a championship unless he changes some things. He's a fantastic lead assistant (defense) though. People that work up there weren't disappointed to see him go. He's a good coach. The shelf life ran out though.

[Chisoxfn]

I disagree. I don't think Thibodeau ever wins a championship unless he changes some things. He's a fantastic lead assistant (defense) though. People that work up there weren't disappointed to see him go. He's a good coach. The shelf life ran out though.

The Bulls offensive efficiency metrics were much stronger than people give credit for under Thibs. I'm also a long believer that to stay healthy you need to play and put in the work. I honestly don't think, outside of Pop, there is an active coach better than him. Others might be on the same page, but I don't think anyone, other than Pop, is better than him.

 

Part of winning a title is luck and a championship roster, and the year we had that roster, Rose went down in the playoffs. Heck, even the year before Rose went down, we might have had that roster, but Rose tweaked his ankle in the Miami series and we blew some late leads. That team was awfully close.

 

If Thibs coached the Cavs (current) or Heat teams with Lebron, are you saying he doesn't win a title? Are you saying if he was the coach of the Warriors, he doesn't win a title? Coaching can only do so much, but ultimately, to win a title, you need to be on paper, the most talented or extremely close to the most talented team in the league. A coach can put a lot of other makeup on and help, but you need players to win the whole thing.

[Dick Allen]

The Bulls offensive efficiency metrics were much stronger than people give credit for under Thibs. I'm also a long believer that to stay healthy you need to play and put in the work. I honestly don't think, outside of Pop, there is an active coach better than him. Others might be on the same page, but I don't think anyone, other than Pop, is better than him.

 

Part of winning a title is luck and a championship roster, and the year we had that roster, Rose went down in the playoffs. Heck, even the year before Rose went down, we might have had that roster, but Rose tweaked his ankle in the Miami series and we blew some late leads. That time was awfully close.

 

If Thibs coached the Cavs (current) or Heat teams with Lebron, are you saying he doesn't win a title? Are you saying if he was the coach of the Warriors, he doesn't win a title? Coaching can only do so much, but ultimately, to win a title, you need to be on paper, the most talented or extremely close to the most talented team in the league. A coach can put a lot of other makeup on and help, but you need players to win the whole thing.

Yeah, the Thibs will never win a title is crazy to say. If he has the talent, he will win a title. If Phil or Pop had the Bulls roster the past several years, they wouldn't win a title either.

[Chisoxfn]

Yeah, the Thibs will never win a title is crazy to say. If he has the talent, he will win a title. If Phil or Pop had the Bulls roster the past several years, they wouldn't win a title either.

Phil was truly lucky (not saying he wasn't a good coach, but damn did he have talent). He had arguably the two greatest DUO's in NBA history at one point in time or another, between Michael / Pip and Shaq / Kobe and than again had a heck of a duo with Kobe / Pau. In fact, during most of his tenure as a coach, Phil had the best active player on the planet (from Jordan to Shaq to Kobe).

[Jenksismyhero]

That doesn't mean they did well. I like all of the smaller pieces/role pieces the other top teams have acquired over the bulls.

 

You guys are so literally minded. The bulls for 4 years now have relied on vet min PGs to back-up rose. It worked until it didn't. They committed their other small mid-money amount to Hinrich. That's a bad signing. They reserved their Boozer cap space to Gasol.

 

Gasol has played well, but he was odd at the time and has clearly not worked out now. His style and position openly conflicted with our C Noah. It put a ridiculous amount of our resources to frontcourt, while our backcourt continued to thin out and become old, slow, or one dimensional.

 

Who would you have signed instead? And that plan means you're basically giving up hope that Rose ever becomes a good player again. Up until last season, that would have been foolish, not to mention the FA nightmare of having an organization give up on a player after 1 or 2 injuries. Hurting their FA pull is the last thing they can afford given how low it is already.

 

Also Gasol was a great pick-up. Dude's been an all-star each year he's been here. What more do you want? He doesn't fit the Hoiberg system but maybe Garpax was hoping he'd be enough of a piece to get past Cleveland and still have Thibs as a coach.

 

 

There are a huge number of possibilities in using assets. If people only looked at the trades that happened and FAs that signed, you would say "what could they have done?!". But nobody would look at how the Heat have stayed relevant and found any of those moves obvious.

 

Examples please. And the Heat got lucky a scrub in the D-League developed into a major player. And they didn't have to deal with a franchise player who is constantly hurt.

 

The signing of Gasol and overvaluing of Niko were mistakes. The trading of two 1st round picks for McDermott was a mistake. Each of those resources could have been applied toward better assets and players that fit their inevitable shift to Hoiberg.

 

Signing Gasol was a great move that argues against the "they don't make any good moves or sign good players!" complaint. Niko was just a miss. Through half of last season everyone and their mother thought he was a great find. I'm still not willing to give up on him either. He makes a lot of stupid mistakes, but he still has a ton of talent. It's been 1.5 seasons. Same with McDermott. His defense can improve and then he'd be a really solid contributor.

 

And who are you drafting instead of McDermott? What need could have been filled. Go look at the players taken after him. A bunch of nobodies.

 

Would they be contenders for the title? I don't know or care, their job is clearly to put the best team on the court at all times and they failed for the last 3 years at every decision point with the exception of Dunleavy, nate robinson and hopefully, hopefully Bobby Portis.

 

As I've said before, given unlucky situation with Rose, they've been pretty hamstrung in what they could do. As Balta has pointed out, any moves they could have made to get better means you lose out on Butler or Taj or both. Other than some max free agent like Lebron or Melo WHO THEY TRIED TO ACQUIRE, they're not signing anyone as good as Butler now. So that's all a wash.

 

 

 

[Chisoxfn]

Who would you have signed instead? And that plan means you're basically giving up hope that Rose ever becomes a good player again. Up until last season, that would have been foolish, not to mention the FA nightmare of having an organization give up on a player after 1 or 2 injuries. Hurting their FA pull is the last thing they can afford given how low it is already.

 

Also Gasol was a great pick-up. Dude's been an all-star each year he's been here. What more do you want? He doesn't fit the Hoiberg system but maybe Garpax was hoping he'd be enough of a piece to get past Cleveland and still have Thibs as a coach.

 

 

 

 

Examples please. And the Heat got lucky a scrub in the D-League developed into a major player. And they didn't have to deal with a franchise player who is constantly hurt.

 

 

 

Signing Gasol was a great move that argues against the "they don't make any good moves or sign good players!" complaint. Niko was just a miss. Through half of last season everyone and their mother thought he was a great find. I'm still not willing to give up on him either. He makes a lot of stupid mistakes, but he still has a ton of talent. It's been 1.5 seasons. Same with McDermott. His defense can improve and then he'd be a really solid contributor.

 

And who are you drafting instead of McDermott? What need could have been filled. Go look at the players taken after him. A bunch of nobodies.

 

 

 

As I've said before, given unlucky situation with Rose, they've been pretty hamstrung in what they could do. As Balta has pointed out, any moves they could have made to get better means you lose out on Butler or Taj or both. Other than some max free agent like Lebron or Melo WHO THEY TRIED TO ACQUIRE, they're not signing anyone as good as Butler now. So that's all a wash.

You absolutely have to give the Bulls credit for not executing on a deal to move Butler. Reality is a lot of GM's would have dealt Butler. You should give the Warriors the same credit as they could have dealt Klay for Love and who knows what Golden State becomes if that happens. Does Draymond end up developing into the player he is, how does Love fit in with them, etc.

 

How can anyone knock the Pau signing? Pau might suck at defending the pick and roll, but he's been a very good player for the Bulls. And Niko was a great move. I'm actually curious how the time off, etc, will be for him. Might allow him to clear his mind and kind of regain his edge. Niko clearly has talent (and I complain about him more than others), but I really question whether Hoiberg is the right guy to get the most out of our players and help develop our guys. I always thought Thibs did an amazing job getting the most out of his guys and developing young players.

[bmags]

Phil was truly lucky (not saying he wasn't a good coach, but damn did he have talent). He had arguably the two greatest DUO's in NBA history at one point in time or another, between Michael / Pip and Shaq / Kobe and than again had a heck of a duo with Kobe / Pau. In fact, during most of his tenure as a coach, Phil had the best active player on the planet (from Jordan to Shaq to Kobe).

 

Phil has certainly had a lot of talent, but all you need to do is look at the Thunder, which is a team that is just mindboggling to me that they will likely not win a championship (likely), as to the niche Phil fulfilled. His specific niche was taking over a bunch of alphadog superstars and making it work.

[bmags]

Niko is not a "great" move. Great moves at the least provide you with a good player. Niko is bad.

 

Pau is a fine player. He was a very strange choice to fit on this roster, it created a weird carousel of rotations, and killed our wing/pg rotations. That was a bad signing of a good player.

[Jenksismyhero]

One thing they could have done was not bring back the entire roster except Portis for Nazr and proclaim it a championship roster. You are saying the roster is flawed. GarPax didn't see it that way, and were willing to pay $9 million to show everyone the thing holding back the Bulls was their coach. To me, that's fireable. It isn't a championship roster if everyone is healthy, and to expect this particular group of players to be healthy is beyond crazy as well. Gar called it a championship roster. He should be held accountable to his words.

 

Agree or disagree - they are/should be the lock for #2 in the east? I say that was the case, clearly, before the season started, with this roster. By definition then they were championship contenders. They'd be in the final four teams. They're one Lebron injury away from being in the Finals. Given what they're stuck with from s*** that happened outside of their control (Rose being made of glass and signing him to a max contract, fully deserved, right before he broke), that's literally the best you can do.

 

And weren't they relatively healthy last year? And they should have won that Cavs series? I don't see what was wrong with GarPax saying this was a good enough roster when you could/should expect some development from Mirotic and McDermott in year 2 and you were already in the ECF, a Lebron buzzer beater away from going up 3-1.

[Jenksismyhero]

Another Gar signature move.

 

If this team stayed healthy, or if this teamed played well enough, I could easily say, Gar you were right, the blame here was on Thibs. That was not the case at all. I don't know how anyone at this point can say they had no problem with the Bulls firing Thibs, but would find it wrong firing Gar and/or Pax. Does Jimmy Butler develop into the player he is without Thibs? You have to figure if he developed into the player under Hoiberg, Gar would be singing his praises, not leaking stuff to the press how most of the players didn't like playing for Thibs.

 

The hack job they did on Thibs out the door, and the way the team has not done any better this year, should be a huge embarrassment to the organization.

 

I agree 100% with this. Their handling of coaching is what deserves criticism. Handling of the roster, IMO, does not.

[Jenksismyhero]

Niko is not a "great" move. Great moves at the least provide you with a good player. Niko is bad.

 

Pau is a fine player. He was a very strange choice to fit on this roster, it created a weird carousel of rotations, and killed our wing/pg rotations. That was a bad signing of a good player.

 

Hindsight.

[bmags]

Oh, you are only allowed to play hindsight when it works out? He was a more valuable asset and trade piece. They kept him assuming he'd be a PF of the future. He has no place as a PF so they are moving him to be a bad SF. That's their scouting and roster management.

[southsider2k5]

One thing they could have done was not bring back the entire roster except Portis for Nazr and proclaim it a championship roster. You are saying the roster is flawed. GarPax didn't see it that way, and were willing to pay $9 million to show everyone the thing holding back the Bulls was their coach. To me, that's fireable. It isn't a championship roster if everyone is healthy, and to expect this particular group of players to be healthy is beyond crazy as well. Gar called it a championship roster. He should be held accountable to his words.

 

Obviously Foreman is giving the typical GMs BS answer when he talked about this being a title team. What seems obvious to me is that with even typical health, this roster wasn't a top level team, but in the second tier right under the GS, SA, CLE level. It is a starting line up with multiple All-Stars, and a pretty good amount of talented depth. Obviously a couple of the guys weren't ready for the bigger minutes that injuries forced them into, but I don't think anyone anticipated Tony Snell and Doug Mc being counted on for huge minutes this year.

 

The roster as it is playing today is obviously not going to beat many teams at all, but when you look at how many front line players are out, there is no roster in the NBA that would survive that.

 

My hope is that at the very least Pax forces Foreman to punt on this season and at least trade Gasol to the highest bidder, and then see what guys like Taj and Noah with an expiring deal can bring.

[Chisoxfn]

Niko is not a "great" move. Great moves at the least provide you with a good player. Niko is bad.

 

Pau is a fine player. He was a very strange choice to fit on this roster, it created a weird carousel of rotations, and killed our wing/pg rotations. That was a bad signing of a good player.

What did the Bulls give up for Niko? Niko was an above average role player last year with upside. This year he hasn't been good, but its been six months. The value the Bulls got from Niko where they grabbed him, is impressive, and despite his struggles this year, he is still absolutely a tradeable asset. I wouldn't trade him at this point because I think there is a better upside betting on him turning things around than the value you get from him in a trade today.

[Chisoxfn]

Obviously Foreman is giving the typical GMs BS answer when he talked about this being a title team. What seems obvious to me is that with even typical health, this roster wasn't a top level team, but in the second tier right under the GS, SA, CLE level. It is a starting line up with multiple All-Stars, and a pretty good amount of talented depth. Obviously a couple of the guys weren't ready for the bigger minutes that injuries forced them into, but I don't think anyone anticipated Tony Snell and Doug Mc being counted on for huge minutes this year.

 

The roster as it is playing today is obviously not going to beat many teams at all, but when you look at how many front line players are out, there is no roster in the NBA that would survive that.

 

My hope is that at the very least Pax forces Foreman to punt on this season and at least trade Gasol to the highest bidder, and then see what guys like Taj and Noah with an expiring deal can bring.

This is exactly what I see happening. Not sure if they move Taj or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did turn the page and make this more of a developmental season with an eye to next year. Of course Hoiberg would have to step up his game and focus hard on drilling everyone on his system and start running that system.

[bmags]

"What did the Bulls give up for Niko?"

Literally?

 

- They gave up Norris Cole

- They gained cap space for 2 years while he was overseas vs. rookie salary for cole

- They gave up, depending on how you are looking at it, 2 years of norris cole stats OR the value of that 25th pick if they didn't want to spend money on it that year (could have just tried to trade for another pick later)

- In that same trade, Chandler Parsons went to HOU

- In acquiring niko, they had to pay him 3/15 salary when he comes over

- That salary could have literally went to a more useful player (for instance, thats what Shaun Livingston makes)

- OR you could have used his asset as a trade piece to get a more useful NBA player

 

These are all the ramifications and options that come out of one player like Niko. They kept him, paid him, and now have a not very player they don't have room on the court to develop because they paid for Pau Gasol.

[knightni]

Is it true that releasing Rose only counts for $7 mil a year - over the next 3 years - against the cap?

[soxsoxsoxsox]

Agree or disagree - they are/should be the lock for #2 in the east? I say that was the case, clearly, before the season started, with this roster. By definition then they were championship contenders. They'd be in the final four teams. They're one Lebron injury away from being in the Finals. Given what they're stuck with from s*** that happened outside of their control (Rose being made of glass and signing him to a max contract, fully deserved, right before he broke), that's literally the best you can do.

 

And weren't they relatively healthy last year? And they should have won that Cavs series? I don't see what was wrong with GarPax saying this was a good enough roster when you could/should expect some development from Mirotic and McDermott in year 2 and you were already in the ECF, a Lebron buzzer beater away from going up 3-1.

 

The Bulls haven't been #2 in the East since DROSE blew his knee out. They've been slipping every year. Yes, the best chance they had to beat Lebron was last year. Kevin Love was out for the remainder of the season, and Kyrie was hobbled and they still COULDN'T do it.

 

There were 3 teams competing for a championship this season and it wasn't a secret who they were.

Edited February 10, 2016 by buhbuhburrrrlz

[Chisoxfn]

Is it true that releasing Rose only counts for $7 mil a year - over the next 3 years - against the cap?

They would trade him well before they released him.

[bmags]

$7 mill in dead money is a lot.

[Jenksismyhero]

Oh, you are only allowed to play hindsight when it works out? He was a more valuable asset and trade piece. They kept him assuming he'd be a PF of the future. He has no place as a PF so they are moving him to be a bad SF. That's their scouting and roster management.

 

And he was linked in all sorts of trades including Love and Melo but those didn't work out.

 

And again, after his first half season and even after his first season in total everyone thought he was a great stretch 4. He's had stretches. He makes terrible mistakes, but from a skill standpoint, he's still got it. Why are we calling him a bust after 1.5 seasons?

[Dick Allen]

If there was nothing Gar/Pax could do about the plight of the Bulls, then maybe there was someone out there who could. Maybe it was just GM talk when they mentioned the "championship roster", but people still give Wanne crap for his all the pieces are in place comments. Pax has had a long run, apparently didn't like the GM role too much, so they kicked him upstairs. Gar, I have no idea who he impressed. It is time for a change. It would be interesting to see someone who isn't as connected to these players take on the situation. The love GarPax apparently has for this roster isn't going to do Bulls fans any favors. Change will definitely start happening this offseason. It would be nice to have a fresh approach.

[bmags]

And he was linked in all sorts of trades including Love and Melo but those didn't work out.

 

And again, after his first half season and even after his first season in total everyone thought he was a great stretch 4. He's had stretches. He makes terrible mistakes, but from a skill standpoint, he's still got it. Why are we calling him a bust after 1.5 seasons?

 

There are a lot of useful players aside from Love and Melo. None of them were acquired for a "stretch 4" who doesn't hit 3 pointers, can rarely play the 4, and is a horrible 3, bad at defense, and has had no confidence since refs have stopped rewarding his increasingly more ridiculous flopping.

 

Good use of asset.

[southsider2k5]

Mark Strotman ‏@markstrot 3h3 hours ago

 

Still no timetable on Nikola Mirotic. Hoiberg says he's still in a lot of pain and has lost 15 pounds. At home resting. #BullsTalk