That series of events demonstrates everything wrong with ventura and t

[Dick Allen]

I didn't say it NEVER effects the outcome of the game. They play 162 games.

 

I thought the lack of fundamentals and the decision making were going to cost the White Sox the game... luckily it didn't.

What other lack of fundamentals other than a guy making a mental error occurred? And pitching to David Murphy who was 2 for 10 vs. Robertson? Robertson was 8 for 10 against him. Sox win, Sox sweep. Complain about Robin. I really wonder why many so called White Sox fans just can't enjoy White Sox wins, but have to dissect everything to try to find something they can complain about. Enjoy the win. Enjoy the sweep. Hope for another. Dumb plays happen with every team, even teams with guys you think would be perfect managers. If you haven't noticed it, you aren't paying attention. I really think if the Sox were on the same roll Toronto is on, there would be complaints that it was not sustainable, they would come back down to earth, etc.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Dick Allen

[harkness99]

What other lack of fundamentals other than a guy making a mental error occurred? And pitching to David Murphy who was 2 for 10 vs. Robertson? Robertson was 8 for 10 against him. Sox win, Sox sweep. Complain about Robin. I really wonder why many so called White Sox fans just can't enjoy White Sox wins, but have to dissect everything to try to find something they can complain about. Enjoy the win. Enjoy the sweep. Hope for another. Dumb plays happen with every team, even teams with guys you think would be perfect managers. If you haven't noticed it, you aren't paying attention. I really think if the Sox were on the same roll Toronto is on, there would be complaints that it was not sustainable, they would come back down to earth, etc.

 

Well Murphy is a great pinch hitter as of late and the guy hitting after him is hitting .182 and a much easier out. Hey but its strategy which we could always argue about.

 

 

I don't dissect everything that Ventura does... I haven't said squat about him for a month or two. My post was not after we won but in the middle of the game when it looked like that play could cost us the game.

 

Don't even give me the "so called" line. If you want to criticize the bandwagon type... maybe but otherwise there is little point in trying to define fandom.

 

 

I really enjoyed the sweep. I also think you are no dummy Dick Allen.. we just don't agree on Ventura.

Edited August 13, 2015 by harkness

[RockRaines]

So when players make tactical mistakes you can't blame the coaching staff?

 

Say what?

My question is what makes that tactical? If you knew it was wrong, beer league softball teams know its wrong and its taught in little league how can you blame a professional coaching staff for a player making a mistake?

[lasttriptotulsa]

It's baseball - the manager's effect on the outcome (as you have said 1000 times) is often not important... doesn't change the perception of competence or incompetence.

 

Bad teams having winning streaks all the time. The series last night doesn't define Ventura or the White Sox team this year. We will know at the end.

 

Danks actually has been pitching well lately... sure hope it lasts.

 

Makes a thread to complain about the coaching staff and then makes a post contradicting that by acknowledging that managers have little effect on the outcome. Make up your f***ing mind would ya? What Abreu did was just a brain fart. It happens even to the best players. It has nothing to do with Ventura or the coaching staff. The constant complaints about Ventura every time a Sox player makes a fundamental error that is taught in little league gets a little annoying. If a bunch of schlubs on a message board know that a play was made incorrectly do you really think that a Major Leaguer doesn't understand that as well? I don't think you can coach instincts, you either have them or you don't.

[southsider2k5]

Makes a thread to complain about the coaching staff and then makes a post contradicting that by acknowledging that managers have little effect on the outcome. Make up your f***ing mind would ya? What Abreu did was just a brain fart. It happens even to the best players. It has nothing to do with Ventura or the coaching staff. The constant complaints about Ventura every time a Sox player makes a fundamental error that is taught in little league gets a little annoying. If a bunch of schlubs on a message board know that a play was made incorrectly do you really think that a Major Leaguer doesn't understand that as well? I don't think you can coach instincts, you either have them or you don't.

 

Especially in a game where you have a team who is supposed to have one of the best managers in the league and his team making more stupid mistakes to blow a key game for them.

[harkness99]

Makes a thread to complain about the coaching staff and then makes a post contradicting that by acknowledging that managers have little effect on the outcome. Make up your f***ing mind would ya? What Abreu did was just a brain fart. It happens even to the best players. It has nothing to do with Ventura or the coaching staff. The constant complaints about Ventura every time a Sox player makes a fundamental error that is taught in little league gets a little annoying. If a bunch of schlubs on a message board know that a play was made incorrectly do you really think that a Major Leaguer doesn't understand that as well? I don't think you can coach instincts, you either have them or you don't.

 

Here ya go johnny come lately...

 

 

I didn't say managing NEVER effects the outcome of the game. They play 162 games.

 

I thought the lack of fundamentals and the decision making were going to cost the White Sox the game... luckily it didn't.

 

 

I'm not sure knowing where to throw the ball in every situation is instincts either... that being said I acknowledged that it could be on Abreu.

 

But just looks like you are cherry picking chit.

Edited August 13, 2015 by harkness

[Kyyle23]

Here ya go johnny come lately...

 

 

I didn't say managing NEVER effects the outcome of the game. They play 162 games.

 

I thought the lack of fundamentals and the decision making were going to cost the White Sox the game... luckily it didn't.

 

 

I'm not sure knowing where to throw the ball in every situation is instincts either... that being said I acknowledged that it could be on Abreu.

 

But just looks like you are cherry picking chit.

 

Cherry picking? It is 100 percent true what he said, this thread is just complaining to complain. You would think the Sox lost last night

[harkness99]

Especially in a game where you have a team who is supposed to have one of the best managers in the league and his team making more stupid mistakes to blow a key game for them.

 

 

I don't watch Angels games for the last 25 years. I really have no opinion of Sciosa.

 

 

I guess I'm supposed to make conclusions about the Angels from one game.

[harkness99]

Cherry picking? It is 100 percent true what he said, this thread is just complaining to complain. You would think the Sox lost last night

 

 

Lol wow... I said the manager CAN cost the team a game... just they usually don't

 

Would you agree that even one game is important?

 

 

Can you guys really not understand that?

 

This thread was started in the middle of the game... not after. So yeah after we win everyone can throw their chests out.

 

And also complaining on a message board... or arguing about anything.

 

It's all complaining just to complain... or arguing just to argue because non of this changes anything.

 

It's funny though because after my intial criticism I really haven't complained about anything... just defending a position.

Edited August 13, 2015 by harkness

[southsider2k5]

I don't watch Angels games for the last 25 years. I really have no opinion of Sciosa.

 

 

I guess I'm supposed to make conclusions about the Angels from one game.

 

If you have been watching for 25 years, you have seen plenty of games where the other team makes lots of stupid mistakes.

[harkness99]

If you have been watching for 25 years, you have seen plenty of games where the other team makes lots of stupid mistakes.

 

True all teams make mistakes for sure.

 

But you really have to follow a team to know if its systemic or not.

 

I mean the Royals sure look like they don't make many mistakes... I've watched them probably more than many teams.

 

But still can't say I know enough about them day to day.

Edited August 13, 2015 by harkness

[lasttriptotulsa]

True all teams make mistakes for sure.

 

But you really have to follow a team to know if its systemic or not.

 

I mean the Royals sure look like they don't make many mistakes... I've watched them probably more than many teams.

 

But still can't say I know enough about them day to day.

 

I don't think it's ever "systemic". It's just that certain teams have a bunch of guys with good instincts, others don't. A guy like De Aza is going to make dumb plays no matter who the hell the manager is, while you would be hard pressed to ever catch a guy like Robbie Alomar or Omar Vizquel making a mistake on the field regardless of how bad the manager is. Bottom line is that the players on the field win or lose you the game, not the guy in the dugout making out the lineup card.

 

[Jerksticks]

Man I hate Robin-bashing. Just as much as you dislike Robin harkness.

[kitekrazy]

Man I hate Robin-bashing. Just as much as you dislike Robin harkness.

 

I'm more upset at the people who put in there.

 

I'm more upset at the people who sign aging sluggers from NL who fail at DH.

 

I'm more upset at an organization who tries to fix things by repeating the same mistakes.

 

Most likely we will also feel the same way about the next Sox manager because experienced need not apply.

 

[greg775]

I'm more upset at the people who put in there.

 

I'm more upset at the people who sign aging sluggers from NL who fail at DH.

 

I'm more upset at an organization who tries to fix things by repeating the same mistakes.

 

Most likely we will also feel the same way about the next Sox manager because experienced need not apply.

It' a bottom line business and the Sox have been pretty lousy with Robin. I mean if managers don't matter we can keep him the next 20 years. But the way sports are run nowadays he certainly should be given the boot after this season. If we want to keep him forever, fine, but he deserves the boot over this season and others. Just the way sports works.

[caulfield12]

We have three outfielders with strong/erratic or very strong arms.

 

Two of them are top ten guys in the league in outfield assists. More often that not, they always go after the lead runner and try to make the spectacular play.

 

Granted, there's a right time and a right place...but we have to lead the American League in trail runners allowed to move to second/third on poor throws or missed cutoff men.

 

Cabrera, Eaton and Garcia are still struggling on most defensive metrics, yes?

 

While Eaton has been better (and part of that's a carryover from his offense picking up probably), the reason this is bad is that our bullpen is also worst (at least before this past series) in allowing inherited runners to score. It's those little things that don't show up as errors....but when the trail runners move up or can't be thrown out due to our catchers/pitchers, it puts even more pressure on the team, which has zero margin of error in the first place.

 

There's a right way to make a throw...Melky Cabrera did it, when he barely missed Trout at third last night. Low, and in line to the cut off/relay guy so that the trail runners have no way to confidently advance (Pujols on that occasion), being unable to read with certainty the eventual outcome of the play as they're rounding first or second.

 

Rongey can poke fun at Lester all he wants, but it would sound a lot better if our pitchers and catchers could either effectively hold and/or throw out baserunners. For much of the season, Soto has had a hard time just getting the ball back to the pitcher. That's not about coaching (nor is Lester), that's a mental block/psychological condition or reflex.

 

 

At any rate, maybe nobody can find it...but percentage of trail runners advancing extra bases on bad throws/relays is one category that would be extremely interesting to track with this team, and how it has gone up or down during the course of the season, and why.

Edited August 13, 2015 by caulfield12

[Chisoxfn]

Mike Scioscia and Kenny Williams have the same legacy deal going on, they are both living off one great season 10+ years ago.

He made the playoffs 7 times in 15 years. Ken Williams wishes he had that resume.

[Soxfest]

He made the playoffs 7 times in 15 years. Ken Williams wishes he had that resume.

Exactly right.

[asindc]

I think it comes down to this for some fans. We all root for the players to do well and actually like most of the players on the team, especially the good players. We fans don't have the same emotional investment in management, however. Thus, when something goes wrong, emotionally some fans would rather blame management than the player for the player's failing. As has been noted a few times already in the this thread, if we fans understand what should have happened on that play, what would make us think that Jose Abreu doesn't understand what he should have done, or that management doesn't understand what should have been done on that play?

 

Another Sox fan who posts on another forum is famous (or infamous, depending on your perspective) for saying "I wonder sometimes if some Sox fans watch other teams play, even while they are playing the Sox." One of my best friends is a Detroit Tigers fan. If you listened to him talk sometimes, you would swear he was talking about the Sox if he wasn't using proper nouns. We often times just register what our emotions allow us to.

Edited August 14, 2015 by asindc

[LDF]

I think it comes down to this for some fans. We all root for the players to do well and actually like most of the players on the team, especially the good players. We fans don't have the same emotional investment in management, however. Thus, when something goes wrong, emotionally some fans would rather blame management than the player for the player's failing. As has been noted a few times already in the this thread, if we fans understand what should have happened on that play, what would make us think that Jose Abreu doesn't understand what he should have done, or that management doesn't understand what should have been done on that play?

 

Another Sox fan who posts on another forum is famous (or infamous, depending on your perspective) for saying "I wonder sometimes if some Sox fans watch other teams play, even while they are playing the Sox." One of my best friends is a Detroit Tigers fan. If you listened to him talk sometimes, you would swear he was talking about the Sox if he wasn't using proper nouns. We often times just register what our emotions allow us to.

 

i don't know about the whole thing. but thank for your thoughts.

 

but i mention this many times before.... before i came back. the sox fans are not happy if the team doesn't win every single game. as unrealistic that is, it is still the truth for me. in addition, fans has their own pov on how things should be done and you put 2 or more together and banter is going on, you will hear many different expressions on the subject being talked about....... that is what makes this site, and i am biased, great. it give many, many sox fans the ability to exchange those pov, whether it is agreement or not.

 

only 1 thing, do not take it personal, b/c i know it is not meant to be.

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

He made the playoffs 7 times in 15 years. Ken Williams wishes he had that resume.

 

You are correct, my bad. I zeroed in on his failures since 2010 and kind of forget they were still pretty successful after the WS title. That being said, it seems like they could use a managerial change but he is in the owner's back pocket.

[LDF]

You are correct, my bad. I zeroed in on his failures since 2010 and kind of forget they were still pretty successful after the WS title. That being said, it seems like they could use a managerial change but he is in the owner's back pocket.

 

interesting thoughts on that. i always took that no matter how, he was always getting the best with the teams that was given to him.

 

maybe i am skewed in the opinion of the talent he had.