KW to Toronto?

[Balta1701]

I still fail to see how the past offseason created inflexibility in regards to the framework of this team over the next few years. The whole purpose of the direction they took was to balance today with tomorrow. While I was not a fan of the LaRoche signing, it won't cripple us. The other deals are not blocking anyone who's knocking down the door at Charlotte, with the possible exception of Johnson, who can be brought up in less than 2 weeks.

 

I just can't understand why the fact that they took a shot on '15 and missed has some devastating consequences for '16 and '17.

I think this statement looks particularly incorrect now that we know we won't get anyone close to MLB-ready back for Samardzija and now that we've seen how much of a difference "a little depth at a few positions" made for this roster already this season. When that statement was being written last winter to me everyone added "oh and we'll get players back for Samardzija when we move him" and that's now disappeared from the list.

[southsider2k5]

I still fail to see how the past offseason created inflexibility in regards to the framework of this team over the next few years. The whole purpose of the direction they took was to balance today with tomorrow. While I was not a fan of the LaRoche signing, it won't cripple us. The other deals are not blocking anyone who's knocking down the door at Charlotte, with the possible exception of Johnson, who can be brought up in less than 2 weeks.

 

I just can't understand why the fact that they took a shot on '15 and missed has some devastating consequences for '16 and '17.

 

Totally this.

[harfman77]

Nick Hostetler is definitely a Rick Hahn guy. I want KW to leave because I'd like to see Hahn run it on his own. He may fail but at least we'd have clarity as far as knowing who's responsible for the moves being made.

 

How is he definitely a Hahn guy? He is just another internal promotion, like re-arranging chairs on the Titanic.

[LDF]

I still fail to see how the past offseason created inflexibility in regards to the framework of this team over the next few years. The whole purpose of the direction they took was to balance today with tomorrow. While I was not a fan of the LaRoche signing, it won't cripple us. The other deals are not blocking anyone who's knocking down the door at Charlotte, with the possible exception of Johnson, who can be brought up in less than 2 weeks.

 

I just can't understand why the fact that they took a shot on '15 and missed has some devastating consequences for '16 and '17.

 

i will say without any proof, that his 2 level of bosses thought otherwise and set down the directive to use what the team has and get to the playoff.

 

that is the only logical excuse or idea i can come up with

[Y2Jimmy0]

How is he definitely a Hahn guy? He is just another internal promotion, like re-arranging chairs on the Titanic.

 

 

Well I happen to know that he is. Not sure how much I'm allowed to say in a forum like this. raBBit may be able to help out here.

[Dunt]

How is he definitely a Hahn guy? He is just another internal promotion, like re-arranging chairs on the Titanic.

 

Their philosophies align pretty well. He was definitely a Hahn promotion.

[GGajewski18]

I still fail to see how the past offseason created inflexibility in regards to the framework of this team over the next few years. The whole purpose of the direction they took was to balance today with tomorrow. While I was not a fan of the LaRoche signing, it won't cripple us. The other deals are not blocking anyone who's knocking down the door at Charlotte, with the possible exception of Johnson, who can be brought up in less than 2 weeks.

 

I just can't understand why the fact that they took a shot on '15 and missed has some devastating consequences for '16 and '17.

 

 

Good post Shack. We see eye to eye on this.

 

 

Totally this.

 

I completely agree. The pieces we gave up will not hurt us in the end. The comp pick we get for Jeff can be better than all 4 players we gave up for Shark.

 

Phegley is a career back up at best.

Bassitt is a 5th-long man

Ravelo is a 1B who would be blocked by Abreu

Semien, his offense is legit but his defense is really really bad.

 

When the Sox acquired Jeff, the intentions were to lock him up long term. However, that didn't work out in the end but we can still get a comp pick for Jeff that will usually be in the 26-35 range AND then we can save that money we would of used on Jeff to use on a hitter in free agency (Upton or Heyward)

[Dick Allen]

So if the intentions were to sign Samardzija long term, if they do not, which appears rather likely, it would seem to indicate an availability of funds to go out and find some immediate help in other areas.

[southsider2k5]

How is he definitely a Hahn guy? He is just another internal promotion, like re-arranging chairs on the Titanic.

 

Besides the Hahn stuff, he isn't really an "internal" guy. He cut his teeth in the Braves organization. I don't know about you, but I am ok with bringing in guys from the Braves and promoting them.

[LDF]

I completely agree. The pieces we gave up will not hurt us in the end. The comp pick we get for Jeff can be better than all 4 players we gave up for Shark.

 

Phegley is a career back up at best.

Bassitt is a 5th-long man

Ravelo is a 1B who would be blocked by Abreu

Semien, his offense is legit but his defense is really really bad.

 

When the Sox acquired Jeff, the intentions were to lock him up long term. However, that didn't work out in the end but we can still get a comp pick for Jeff that will usually be in the 26-35 range AND then we can save that money we would of used on Jeff to use on a hitter in free agency (Upton or Heyward)

 

their are some intangibles that is not considered.

 

short term vs long term

 

in addition, poor judgement of the assets that is or was on hand.

[LDF]

So if the intentions were to sign Samardzija long term, if they do not, which appears rather likely, it would seem to indicate an availability of funds to go out and find some immediate help in other areas.

 

i would assume so, but the upper management would need to be talked into that move.

[Knackattack]

So far this year, Semien looks like a back-up, Phegley looks like a back-up (albeit a good one), Bassit has looked better this year and his fastball velocity has gone up, but you have to imagine that his time in the bullpen has some effect on that. Ravelo missed half the year and still doesn't ever look like he will hit enough homers to be a viable 1st base option. Shark sucked ass for us, but in 4 years I would bet that our comp pick turns into a legit starting pitching prospect either on the farm or in the bigs that will be at least close in the WAR department to them.

 

Also if Shark didn't s*** the bed this year and we were closer to contention, the trade looks great.

 

I'd be fine with KW leaving to go elsewhere and giving Hahn a shot, mostly based on the fact that Hahn seems willing to wait on talent to develop and won't jump the gun trading good prospects for bad players.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Knackattack

[Soxfest]

Please go that would be fantastic.

[greg775]

Hopefully Kenny will take the job. He and everybody hit magic that one year which unfortunately played out to be a fluke. It was a glorious fluke but a fluke. KW needs to go.

[Balta1701]

Hopefully Kenny will take the job. He and everybody hit magic that one year which unfortunately played out to be a fluke. It was a glorious fluke but a fluke. KW needs to go.

I don't think it was a "fluke", I think Kenny remains a solid judge of baseball talent (see Jose Abreu) and that was a key part of him being able to build the team in the 2005 year. I think that Kenny moved from that technique - building a ballclub through shrewd acquisition and development of undervalued talent - to a strategy that is going in the wrong direction, as more resources became available to him. He went from signing an undervalued Japanese 2b and a RF coming off injury and a catcher no one wanted to paying big time prices for guys in trades and on the FA market, a strategy that minimized his own skills. He was able to do that because more resources became available (money) after the WS win and because he continued trying to "win now" at all costs.

 

He no longer could take time to develop a pitcher like Jon Garland, who had 3 mediocre full seasons following 2 mediocre part seasons before he snapped off his solid 2005, because he couldn't spend 3 years turning a guy into a useful piece.

[GreatScott82]

I still fail to see how the past offseason created inflexibility in regards to the framework of this team over the next few years. The whole purpose of the direction they took was to balance today with tomorrow. While I was not a fan of the LaRoche signing, it won't cripple us. The other deals are not blocking anyone who's knocking down the door at Charlotte, with the possible exception of Johnson, who can be brought up in less than 2 weeks.

 

I just can't understand why the fact that they took a shot on '15 and missed has some devastating consequences for '16 and '17.

Although the moves they made in the offseason doesn't necessarily hurt the 2016 or 2017 chances for the main roster, they still lost out on a 2nd and 3rd round draft pick during this years amateur draft. At this point, they need to be focusing on building up a farm system that still ranks on the bottom half of baseball.

Edited August 19, 2015 by GreatScott82

[chitownsportsfan]

I don't think it was a "fluke", I think Kenny remains a solid judge of baseball talent (see Jose Abreu) and that was a key part of him being able to build the team in the 2005 year. I think that Kenny moved from that technique - building a ballclub through shrewd acquisition and development of undervalued talent - to a strategy that is going in the wrong direction, as more resources became available to him. He went from signing an undervalued Japanese 2b and a RF coming off injury and a catcher no one wanted to paying big time prices for guys in trades and on the FA market, a strategy that minimized his own skills. He was able to do that because more resources became available (money) after the WS win and because he continued trying to "win now" at all costs.

 

He no longer could take time to develop a pitcher like Jon Garland, who had 3 mediocre full seasons following 2 mediocre part seasons before he snapped off his solid 2005, because he couldn't spend 3 years turning a guy into a useful piece.

 

good post I think he also started to believe he was some once in a lifetime talent evaluater. As I say often, he was probably fooled by randomness like Garland developing, Tad coming through, etc. When the random luck changed he doubled down on bringing in boom or bust guys thinking they'd mostly boom like before because of something the Sox were doing.

 

TUrns out it wasn't anything but luck really.

[iamshack]

Although the moves they made in the offseason doesn't necessarily hurt the 2016 or 2017 chances for the main roster, they still lost out on a 2nd and 3rd round draft pick during this years amateur draft. At this point, they need to be focusing on building up a farm system that still ranks on the bottom half of baseball.

Then they should be trading their best mlb assets to further that goal, because otherwise you are wasting them on mediocre, meaningless seasons.

 

There are 3 paths to go down at this juncture:

 

1) Recognize you have Sale/Abreu/Rodon and push all your chips into the middle and try to win over the next few years. Trade anything from the minor leagues that isn't bolted down to try and take advantage of the elite talent you have currently on the big league roster;

2) Continue building from the ground up, recognizing that you need to develop position players to balance out the young pitching you've been developing. Hope you can do this quickly enough to find a window before Sale/Abreu/Rodon leave via FA or their skills begin to erode; and

3) Balance the present with the future, recognizing you have elite talent on the roster now, but not enough. Move assets deemed not part of your "future" to bring in assets that can contribute now or in the near future.

 

It's pretty clear that our FO chose the third path.

 

The risk of taking the path you're advocating for is that by the time this all comes together, you may have wasted Sale and Abreu's best years, and some of Rodon's best years. At some point, you've got to recognize what you've got and give these guys an opportunity to make the postseason.

[Balta1701]

Then they should be trading their best mlb assets to further that goal, because otherwise you are wasting them on mediocre, meaningless seasons.

 

There are 3 paths to go down at this juncture:

 

1) Recognize you have Sale/Abreu/Rodon and push all your chips into the middle and try to win over the next few years. Trade anything from the minor leagues that isn't bolted down to try and take advantage of the elite talent you have currently on the big league roster;

2) Continue building from the ground up, recognizing that you need to develop position players to balance out the young pitching you've been developing. Hope you can do this quickly enough to find a window before Sale/Abreu/Rodon leave via FA or their skills begin to erode; and

3) Balance the present with the future, recognizing you have elite talent on the roster now, but not enough. Move assets deemed not part of your "future" to bring in assets that can contribute now or in the near future.

 

It's pretty clear that our FO chose the third path.

 

The risk of taking the path you're advocating for is that by the time this all comes together, you may have wasted Sale and Abreu's best years, and some of Rodon's best years. At some point, you've got to recognize what you've got and give these guys an opportunity to make the postseason.

Um...I think it's very, very, very clear based on 2015 that what you just said is the risk of doing the 2nd option...building from the ground up and then in the process wasting Sale and Abreu's best years....is absolutely a risk of the 3rd way that you ascribe to the front office as well.

 

In fact, if it keeps the roster caught in the middle and relies on luck to push them into a wild card role, there's a decent case to be made that has the highest chance of wasting Sale and Abreu's best years because it is likely the slowest path to producing a top of the league team even if a roll of the dice could push it to be the fastest way to a wild card spot.

[iamshack]

Um...I think it's very, very, very clear based on 2015 that what you just said is the risk of doing the 2nd option...building from the ground up and then in the process wasting Sale and Abreu's best years....is absolutely a risk of the 3rd way that you ascribe to the front office as well.

 

In fact, if it keeps the roster caught in the middle and relies on luck to push them into a wild card role, there's a decent case to be made that has the highest chance of wasting Sale and Abreu's best years because it is likely the slowest path to producing a top of the league team even if a roll of the dice could push it to be the fastest way to a wild card spot.

There is nothing very, very, very clear about the bolded. Please elaborate. I haven't the slightest clue what you are trying to get across.

 

[Balta1701]

There is nothing very, very, very clear about the bolded. Please elaborate. I haven't the slightest clue what you are trying to get across.

The White Sox went with the middle ground - trying to compete without giving up their best long-term assets, but while sacrificing some depth and money.

 

In the process they utterly failed.

 

The end result is they have absolutely moved closer to wasting Sale and Abreu's best seasons, because they just wasted one of them at the very least. That's what you said the risk was of slowly trying to develop assets, and they did exactly that while trying to find "near future" assets.

 

I think that's a very strong message from 2015. They spent a lot of assets on this season, got incredibly lucky with health, like unbelievably lucky with the health of their lineup, and they've barely improved from 2014.

 

They have absolutely increased the chances of wasting their best years because they just wasted one.

[iamshack]

The White Sox went with the middle ground - trying to compete without giving up their best long-term assets, but while sacrificing some depth and money.

 

In the process they utterly failed.

 

The end result is they have absolutely moved closer to wasting Sale and Abreu's best seasons, because they just wasted one of them at the very least. That's what you said the risk was of slowly trying to develop assets, and they did exactly that while trying to find "near future" assets.

 

I think that's a very strong message from 2015. They spent a lot of assets on this season, got incredibly lucky with health, like unbelievably lucky with the health of their lineup, and they've barely improved from 2014.

 

They have absolutely increased the chances of wasting their best years because they just wasted one.

They still have Robertson/Melky/Duke locked up for '16 and '17 and Robertson for '18. I don't think it is fair to write these assets off as useless because the team will not win this year. And yet you are, and have been, for the last several months.

 

You seem to somehow require guaranteed results. What world do you live in? They took a shot and it didn't work out. But they didn't irreparably harm their future. In fact, they added some nice pieces for the next few years for which there still are no solutions.

 

Yes, they surrendered two draft picks for the privilege.

[Balta1701]

Yes, they surrendered two draft picks for the privilege.

And 4 players, so 6 different players who would otherwise be in our organization. And then people who say that we didn't give up all that much will simultaneously say how we don't have that much depth in our system, or lament that we can't bring positions up to tolerable performance levels.

 

And that's on top of other decisions not made...things like "we didn't trade Alexei last year" when hindsight shows that to be a mistake as well. So even if we didn't get a top of the league return for him, there's 7+ layers we surrendered for the privilege of 2015.

 

And that doesn't even count the opportunity-cost of not giving innings to EJ in the last month when he really should have been up.

[chitownsportsfan]

And 4 players, so 6 different players who would otherwise be in our organization. And then people who say that we didn't give up all that much will simultaneously say how we don't have that much depth in our system, or lament that we can't bring positions up to tolerable performance levels.

 

And that's on top of other decisions not made...things like "we didn't trade Alexei last year" when hindsight shows that to be a mistake as well. So even if we didn't get a top of the league return for him, there's 7+ layers we surrendered for the privilege of 2015.

 

And that doesn't even count the opportunity-cost of not giving innings to EJ in the last month when he really should have been up.

 

I'd feel better if you were in charge honestly. I don't always agree but it's clear you have an internally consistent philosophy based on sound principles.

[iamshack]

And 4 players, so 6 different players who would otherwise be in our organization. And then people who say that we didn't give up all that much will simultaneously say how we don't have that much depth in our system, or lament that we can't bring positions up to tolerable performance levels.

 

And that's on top of other decisions not made...things like "we didn't trade Alexei last year" when hindsight shows that to be a mistake as well. So even if we didn't get a top of the league return for him, there's 7+ layers we surrendered for the privilege of 2015.

 

And that doesn't even count the opportunity-cost of not giving innings to EJ in the last month when he really should have been up.

Yep.

 

Still worth taking the shot, IMO.

 

And you are getting a bit ridiculous trying to prove your point that you despise everyone and everything to do with this organization currently.