Bill Maher: God/Organized Religion, yes or no

[T R U]

When someone tries to sell me that a child getting murdered was "gods plan" for them, that's about enough for me to turn my head at that nonsense.. There's a reason faith healers don't work at hospitals.. its all nonsense made for people to have something to believe in.. more power to you if you believe it, I want nothing to do with it

[caulfield12]

Religion has simply been an attempt to control the middle class and poor throughout history and keep them relatively passive/obedient.

 

Religion is the opiate of the masses, etc.

 

If you could prove that there was no God, it wouldn't turn into The Purge overnight but there would be a lot less patience exhibited towards various governments/leaders.

 

On the other hand, as some have mentioned, it's a way to deal with grief and the fear of the unknown, the abyss of endless sleep. Everyone would LIKE to believe they'll be reunited with their parents/family and loved ones in "heaven," but it's not the likely ending.

 

The Greg Kinnear movie where his son supposedly meets God, and the reaction of all the people (even in the church) is skeptical...it's the nature of everyone these days not to believe in anything that you can't empirically back up with proof or evidence.

Edited August 30, 2015 by caulfield12

[greg775]

When someone tries to sell me that a child getting murdered was "gods plan" for them, that's about enough for me to turn my head at that nonsense.

Whoever says that has an incorrect stance on the matter. Nobody ever says that. God is the rock that helps people through those tragedies. He's going nowhere except to be a steadfast rock for people. Someone has told you a death of a kid is God's plan? When? Where?

 

Religion has simply been an attempt to control the middle class and poor throughout history and keep them relatively passive/obedient.

I don't know about that. Like I was saying, some ultra intelligent people (JIMMY CARTER) believe in the whole entire shebang. God as master of the universe; sitting on a throne, etc. You can't deny some INTELLIGENT people believe and are not believing to be controlled.

[T R U]

Whoever says that has an incorrect stance on the matter. Nobody ever says that. God is the rock that helps people through those tragedies. He's going nowhere except to be a steadfast rock for people. Someone has told you a death of a kid is God's plan? When? Where?

 

I would say this is completely false as there have been plenty of times where a tragedy has happened and the response has been that was gods plan for them.. I lost twins to a miscarriage 2 years ago, I had people tell me they were in a better place now and that god has a plan.. I would rather have my two kids I never got to meet than to be subjected to whatever gods plan was.. Of course, this is just one personal example but its absolutely something that has been said before..

 

I don't believe in god, I am not an atheist, I am a realist.. To me believing in god is like believing in magic or aliens.. it doesn't exist but if it helps you get through your day then more power to you.. I don't know how we got here or why we are here, but I have more important things to think about and deal with in my short time on this earth and id rather not waste it believing there's some mystical being that I need to follow his rules or I go to a bad place when I die..

[greg775]

I would say this is completely false as there have been plenty of times where a tragedy has happened and the response has been that was gods plan for them.. I lost twins to a miscarriage 2 years ago, I had people tell me they were in a better place now and that god has a plan.. I would rather have my two kids I never got to meet than to be subjected to whatever gods plan was.. Of course, this is just one personal example but its absolutely something that has been said before..

 

I don't believe in god, I am not an atheist, I am a realist.. To me believing in god is like believing in magic or aliens.. it doesn't exist but if it helps you get through your day then more power to you.. I don't know how we got here or why we are here, but I have more important things to think about and deal with in my short time on this earth and id rather not waste it believing there's some mystical being that I need to follow his rules or I go to a bad place when I die..

 

Sorry about the loss of your twins. Truly sorry. I don't know why people would tell you that, but I would just say I'm sorry and ask if you needed anything.

You said: "I have more important things to think about and deal with in my short time on this earth and id rather not waste it believing there's some mystical being that I need to follow his rules or I go to a bad place when I die."

That's cool. That's your prerogative. In my case, I also have "more important" things to do than go to church on Sunday as I'm pretty much tied to my job as most workers are nowadays. But in my case the best hour I spend all week is the one I get to spend in church every Sunday; sometimes I go during the week as well, but not that often. I find it inspiring to see a packed church and enjoy inspirational music and readings with all these people praising God. I think it's great. I don't think I'm "wasting" precious time "believing there's some mystical being." I know where you are coming from though. My family members are the same way. They wouldn't be caught dead wasting an hour of their weeks at Mass. They will go on Xmas Eve though which is always nice. I don't push it on them but I do enjoy my time spent in church and don't think I'm wasting my hour.

 

[T R U]

Sorry about the loss of your twins. Truly sorry. I don't know why people would tell you that, but I would just say I'm sorry and ask if you needed anything.

You said: "I have more important things to think about and deal with in my short time on this earth and id rather not waste it believing there's some mystical being that I need to follow his rules or I go to a bad place when I die."

That's cool. That's your prerogative. In my case, I also have "more important" things to do than go to church on Sunday as I'm pretty much tied to my job as most workers are nowadays. But in my case the best hour I spend all week is the one I get to spend in church every Sunday; sometimes I go during the week as well, but not that often. I find it inspiring to see a packed church and enjoy inspirational music and readings with all these people praising God. I think it's great. I don't think I'm "wasting" precious time "believing there's some mystical being." I know where you are coming from though. My family members are the same way. They wouldn't be caught dead wasting an hour of their weeks at Mass. They will go on Xmas Eve though which is always nice. I don't push it on them but I do enjoy my time spent in church and don't think I'm wasting my hour.

 

And like I said, more power to you.. but soon the most important thing that will happen on Sundays for me is having the right fantasy football lineup set and watching the Dolphins hoping they finally get their s*** together..

 

Life is short, believe what you want to believe and do what you want to do, as long as youre happy I couldn't give two f***s about what you believe in

Edited August 30, 2015 by TRU

[greg775]

And like I said, more power to you.. but soon the most important thing that will happen on Sundays for me is having the right fantasy football lineup set and watching the Dolphins hoping they finally get their s*** together..

 

Life is short, believe what you want to believe and do what you want to do, as long as youre happy I couldn't give two f***s about what you believe in

 

I will. I just tried to be nice after your insulting statement: "it doesn't exist but if it helps you get through your day then more power to you.. I don't know how we got here or why we are here, but I have more important things to think about and deal with in my short time on this earth and id rather not waste it believing there's some mystical being that I need to follow his rules or I go to a bad place when I die.."

 

I also have important things to do, believe me.

[caulfield12]

And like I said, more power to you.. but soon the most important thing that will happen on Sundays for me is having the right fantasy football lineup set and watching the Dolphins hoping they finally get their s*** together..

 

Life is short, believe what you want to believe and do what you want to do, as long as youre happy I couldn't give two f***s about what you believe in

 

They were my favorite sports team growing up in the 70's/80's/early 90's....and then, poof.

 

When you go from Marino/Duper/Clayton (but no running backs/defense) to Jimmy Johnson to irrelevance (ala the White Sox for most of their history), it's pretty hard to stay motivated following them from afar, especially when living in KC for a decade and then another decade living abroad.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Sorry about the loss of your twins. Truly sorry. I don't know why people would tell you that, but I would just say I'm sorry and ask if you needed anything.

You said: "I have more important things to think about and deal with in my short time on this earth and id rather not waste it believing there's some mystical being that I need to follow his rules or I go to a bad place when I die."

That's cool. That's your prerogative. In my case, I also have "more important" things to do than go to church on Sunday as I'm pretty much tied to my job as most workers are nowadays. But in my case the best hour I spend all week is the one I get to spend in church every Sunday; sometimes I go during the week as well, but not that often. I find it inspiring to see a packed church and enjoy inspirational music and readings with all these people praising God. I think it's great. I don't think I'm "wasting" precious time "believing there's some mystical being." I know where you are coming from though. My family members are the same way. They wouldn't be caught dead wasting an hour of their weeks at Mass. They will go on Xmas Eve though which is always nice. I don't push it on them but I do enjoy my time spent in church and don't think I'm wasting my hour.

 

The same reason people say any disaster or "unfair/unjust loss of life" is God's plan.

 

However, saying sorry or asking what you can do...those aren't much consolation, either, when you've lost a parent or child. Maybe you're right, in a society without God or religion, we wouldn't even be civil enough to mouth those words that feel necessary but often come out hollow, like when someone talks about being abused as a child by a priest and you can't say much of anything...but try to muster up some sympathy for them, which obviously won't do any good but is the human reaction.

 

It seems many of the posters here either grew up in the Catholic Church, went to private/Catholic schools...that's as interesting as your survey results, which are pretty meaningless statistically because they're not measuring or sampling 1000's of women living in Alabama or Kansas.

 

Maybe if you took away all the abuse scandals, the millions that various dioceases have paid to buy their way out of those situations (of course, with church donations going to lawyers rather than the traditional targets of Catholic Social/Relief Services)...all those examples in every church where leaders have seemingly gotten "rich" or acquired upscale condos, luxury cars and golden parachutes for retirement.

 

It's also for me about the fact that not allowing birth control in countries like India (see Mother Teresa's comments on this issue) or sub-Saharan Africa seems to be terribly short-sighted...often leading to even more misery/cruelty for many of these children. (I know someone will go on a riff about all the geniuses/prodigies that the world would have been forever denied due to abortion...but what all the all those same geniuses who never have a chance to emerge because of growing up with parents who don't have the resources to provide them a good education?)

Edited August 30, 2015 by caulfield12

[CrimsonWeltall]

Religion has simply been an attempt to control the middle class and poor throughout history and keep them relatively passive/obedient.

 

Religion occurs even in societies or groups without any significant hierarchy. They typically serve many purposes including explaining the unknown, maintaining order in society via moral codes, and uniting individuals into a group to achieve common goals. Elements of culture are subject to selection just like genes. Religions have tended to be some of the most successful cultural adaptations in history.

 

I think it's a little conspiratorial to imply that religious leaders are all just power elites looking to control people rather than devout believers themselves. There certainly are charlatans, of course (I'm looking at you Prosperity Gospel preachers and cult leaders).

[greg775]

Religion occurs even in societies or groups without any significant hierarchy. They typically serve many purposes including explaining the unknown, maintaining order in society via moral codes, and uniting individuals into a group to achieve common goals. Elements of culture are subject to selection just like genes. Religions have tended to be some of the most successful cultural adaptations in history.

 

I think it's a little conspiratorial to imply that religious leaders are all just power elites looking to control people rather than devout believers themselves. There certainly are charlatans, of course (I'm looking at you Prosperity Gospel preachers and cult leaders).

 

I don't think guys like Jimmy Carter would be practicing their faith if they thought all the leaders were in it for the wrong reaons.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I don't know about that. Like I was saying, some ultra intelligent people (JIMMY CARTER) believe in the whole entire shebang. God as master of the universe; sitting on a throne, etc. You can't deny some INTELLIGENT people believe and are not believing to be controlled.

 

I'm not sure what your obsession with Jimmy Carter is all about or why you think he is "ultra intelligent"...

[greg775]

I'm not sure what your obsession with Jimmy Carter is all about or why you think he is "ultra intelligent"...

I just think he's brilliant and one of the greatest individuals to be President. His intelligence cannot be questioned. And he is full of faith in God, so I see it only natural as I would point to Jimmy as somebody to solidify my position that there is a God.

[caulfield12]

I just think he's brilliant and one of the greatest individuals to be President. His intelligence cannot be questioned. And he is full of faith in God, so I see it only natural as I would point to Jimmy as somebody to solidify my position that there is a God.

 

Couldn't we make the opposite argument about Adolf Hitler or Werner Von Braun (rocketry/physics)? Heck, we can throw out the fictional Dr. Hannibal Lecter just for argument's sake.

 

Some of the most brilliant men and women throughout history have perpetrated genocides or led cults that ended in mass suicides.

 

Because Jimmy Carter was a decorated submarine officer, brilliant Navy cadet or respected Sunday school preacher doesn't make him the unquestioned authority on faith/belief/existence.

 

Point being that intelligence has limits in understand/interpreting the universe, and it's just as easy to quote Hawking, Einstein or even a lesser light such as Richard Dawkins in making the opposite case.

 

Greg, did you watch the "God is Not Dead" Christian film with Kevin Sorbo/Hercules playing the agnostic professor? Feels like a lot of the same arguments going back and forth.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I just think he's brilliant and one of the greatest individuals to be President. His intelligence cannot be questioned. And he is full of faith in God, so I see it only natural as I would point to Jimmy as somebody to solidify my position that there is a God.

 

You haven't given any explanation for why you think he's so intelligent, or why a single intelligent person being Christian solidifies that belief when one can easily find intelligent individuals who support every belief.

[Y2HH]

Whoever says that has an incorrect stance on the matter. Nobody ever says that. God is the rock that helps people through those tragedies. He's going nowhere except to be a steadfast rock for people. Someone has told you a death of a kid is God's plan? When? Where?

 

The religious say things like this all the time.

 

"God works in mysterious ways."

 

"God has a plan."

 

"They're in a better place."

 

There are many more examples of this nonsense, but those are the easiest ones to remember off the top of my head.

 

-----

 

Here is my problem with "god". You forget one thing when claiming god is the rock that helps people through these tragedies...he's also the cause of them.

 

IF this all powerful being exists, it means he/she/it is CHOOSING to allow the suffering of those called "his children". People all over the world, throughout time, from wars to genocide, from mass famine to murder, from disease to despair...children too young to have lived dying of cancer or starvation, and suffering throughout the short time they were here...

 

I could go on...

 

But if *this* god exists, he's a f***ing asshole.

 

Anyone that has ever seen one of these children, whose entire life is that of suffering and death, knowing they're not going to live long enough to feel the euphoria of a first kiss, a first date, or enjoying that perfect glass of wine, or anything else we love about our lives...well, that alone should tell you what your god actually thinks of you.

 

-----

 

And don't feel sorry for me that I "feel this way", either...because I'll simply remind you that Jesus felt this way, too.

 

Using a variation of his words, "God has forsaken me..."

Edited August 31, 2015 by Y2HH

[cabiness42]

The religious say things like this all the time.

 

"God works in mysterious ways."

 

"God has a plan."

 

"They're in a better place."

 

There are many more examples of this nonsense, but those are the easiest ones to remember off the top of my head.

 

-----

 

Here is my problem with "god". You forget one thing when claiming god is the rock that helps people through these tragedies...he's also the cause of them.

 

IF this all powerful being exists, it means he/she/it is CHOOSING to allow the suffering of those called "his children". People all over the world, throughout time, from wars to genocide, from mass famine to murder, from disease to despair...children too young to have lived dying of cancer or starvation, and suffering throughout the short time they were here...

 

I could go on...

 

But if *this* god exists, he's a f***ing asshole.

 

Anyone that has ever seen one of these children, whose entire life is that of suffering and death, knowing they're not going to live long enough to feel the euphoria of a first kiss, a first date, or enjoying that perfect glass of wine, or anything else we love about our lives...well, that alone should tell you what your god actually thinks of you.

 

-----

 

And don't feel sorry for me that I "feel this way", either...because I'll simply remind you that Jesus felt this way, too.

 

Using a variation of his words, "God has forsaken me..."

 

It's not a comfortable subject for discussion among Christians, but don't forget that along with the belief of a good supernatural being, there is also belief in a bad supernatural being. As humans we are incapable of being perfect and as such, that gives the bad supernatural being some level of control over the world. Another thing that gets neglected is the belief that no matter how good you think some experiences in life are, it is incomparable to the experience of the afterlife.

 

I realize that isn't going to change your opinion much, but just pointing out that the belief system does have an explanation for the bad things that happen in the world.

[CrimsonWeltall]

It's not a comfortable subject for discussion among Christians, but don't forget that along with the belief of a good supernatural being, there is also belief in a bad supernatural being. As humans we are incapable of being perfect and as such, that gives the bad supernatural being some level of control over the world.

 

Ultimately, any power or control held by that evil being is given/allowed by God, since he could erase the evil being at any time. That he does not seems to lead back into the "works in mysterious ways" box.

[Y2HH]

It's not a comfortable subject for discussion among Christians, but don't forget that along with the belief of a good supernatural being, there is also belief in a bad supernatural being. As humans we are incapable of being perfect and as such, that gives the bad supernatural being some level of control over the world. Another thing that gets neglected is the belief that no matter how good you think some experiences in life are, it is incomparable to the experience of the afterlife.

 

I realize that isn't going to change your opinion much, but just pointing out that the belief system does have an explanation for the bad things that happen in the world.

 

Yes, an evil being that the good supernatural being created.

[greg775]

The religious say things like this all the time.

 

"God works in mysterious ways."

 

"God has a plan."

 

"They're in a better place."

 

There are many more examples of this nonsense, but those are the easiest ones to remember off the top of my head.

Do they really say things like this all the time? Really? WHen there's a tragedy, the people I know who believe in God say things like, "Anything you need ... let me know." "I'll pray for you." Stuff like that.

 

As far as what you said, yes I do believe anybody who dies "is in a better place." Of course they are. But I wouldn't say that during a tragedy.

As far as "God has a plan" well again, that's not proper to say during a tragedy. God may have a plan but we also have free will in this life.

I stand by my point that God is with his people. Jesus died on the cross, which was painful physically and emotionally. Life wasn't easy for him, either. We just do the best we can with what we've got.

Edited August 31, 2015 by greg775

[Iwritecode]

Do they really say things like this all the time? Really?

 

Yes they absolutely do. I've heard/read it as well.

 

God may have a plan but we also have free will in this life.

 

I'm not sure those two things can both be true. If there's some creator that knows each and every choice we are going to make in our lives before we are even born, isn't free will just an illusion?

 

If we make some choice that this creator couldn't or didn't forsee and plan for, then he's not as omnipotent as we thought.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Iwritecode

[Y2HH]

Yes they absolutely do. I've heard/read it as well.

 

 

 

I'm not sure those two things can both be true. If there's some creator that knows each and every choice we are going to make in our lives before we are even born, isn't free will just an illusion?

 

If we make some choice that this creator couldn't or didn't forsee and plan for, then he's not as omnipotent as we thought.

 

Yes, if there is a plan, then there is no free will, otherwise there is no real plan. It's all a bunch of nonsense.

[Y2HH]

Do they really say things like this all the time? Really? WHen there's a tragedy, the people I know who believe in God say things like, "Anything you need ... let me know." "I'll pray for you." Stuff like that.

 

As far as what you said, yes I do believe anybody who dies "is in a better place." Of course they are. But I wouldn't say that during a tragedy.

As far as "God has a plan" well again, that's not proper to say during a tragedy. God may have a plan but we also have free will in this life.

I stand by my point that God is with his people. Jesus died on the cross, which was painful physically and emotionally. Life wasn't easy for him, either. We just do the best we can with what we've got.

 

If this was actually true, everybody that truly believed would want to die. They don't, because it's a bunch of bulls***.

 

If God has a plan, then no, you don't have free will, since you're following his plan. This is a have your cake and eat it too argument.

[greg775]

If this was actually true, everybody that truly believed would want to die. They don't, because it's a bunch of bulls***.

 

If God has a plan, then no, you don't have free will, since you're following his plan. This is a have your cake and eat it too argument.

 

Not many people "want to die" (except in extreme cases).

It's human nature to be scared of the unknown and want to stay put on earth as long as possible. But it's a goal of many believers to not "fear death" because we do believe we go to a better place.

Why is that belief a bunch of bulls*** as you stated? You die and your spirit goes to a better place. Obviously your body doesn't because when you see a dead body you are fully cognizant of the fact there's nothing there. It's not going anywhere except the ground or a cremation bin. But the spirit does move on to a much better place.

 

Nobody knows what God's plan is ... you are correct there. But I do have a choice in many matters, there's no doubt about that. If I desire, I can drive my car into a tree at 110 miles an hour and die. That is a fact. I can do that tonight if I wish. Did God know I'd do this the day I was born? Did he know it would end with a tree? Did God know the Colorado movie theatre killer would do what he did the day he was born? Did he know that would be our destinies? I don't know. I guess he did since he's God. Nobody ever said humans had the answers. That's not a crutch, it's the truth.

 

Like even Bill Maher has admitted ... the only thing he'll pacify us believers with is he is not positive there is no God. Nobody can say for sure until we die and see for ourselves.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Why is that belief a bunch of bulls*** as you stated? You die and your spirit goes to a better place. Obviously your body doesn't because when you see a dead body you are fully cognizant of the fact there's nothing there. It's not going anywhere except the ground or a cremation bin. But the spirit does move on to a much better place.

 

What reason is there to believe this is true though?

 

My memories, personality, feelings, thoughts, goals, desires, etc are a product of, and reside in, my brain. When I die, my brain will rot and all of these things will be destroyed. What evidence is there to believe that a unknown force uses an unknown process to make a copy of all these things and sends the copy to an unknown place?