The conundrum in the infield

[Jake]

I've been wondering about this and there's nothing very obvious with this.

 

First of all, let's give some props to the Sox for sticking with Sanchez. He was really bad for about twice as long as the look that Micah Johnson got, but they kept him out there and he caught fire. We're now approaching a point where Sanchez has been hitting really well for as long as he had hit really badly. Fluke? Maybe, but Carlos has hit at every level. I think he can realistically be a league average bat (which is great for a defense-oriented 2B).

 

So many question marks:

 

- Can Sanchez cut it defensively at SS? Particularly, is he more valuable at 2B where he's definitely an above average defender or SS where he could be below average (maybe he's better than that, I don't know).

 

- Can Saladino cut it defensively at SS? He has more arm than Sanchez and has more of the size you look for, but I haven't seen him there so I don't know. We have also seen Saladino look excellent defensively at 3B.

 

- What are the options with Micah Johnson? You don't want him to spend too much more time in the minors, though you could feasibly start him there next year. If you keep Sanchez at 2B...what do you do with Micah? We have a strong anti-Micah-OF contingent here and there honestly isn't an obvious opening at those positions anyway. His bat didn't look great in the MLB (though he wasn't horrible by any stretch) and he hasn't looked like that elite base stealer in quite a while. Are you going to move heaven and earth for this kid?

 

- Can any of these guys hit? I think Saladino is the biggest question mark here. He's a smart hitter but he has a relatively spotty minor league track record. After his quick start, he has fallen back to earth pretty hard. I don't think any are sure bets to be starter-quality bats, though. I've seen enough of Saladino and Sanchez to know that they can be players worth having on the strength of their defense at 3B/2B respectively without their bats actually reaching their potential. Johnson, on the other hand, has to hit enough better than the other two to make up for his poor defense.

 

Overall, you're looking at three guys who could each be average or better major leaguers but also could each be journeymen or worse. None have sky high upsides. Only one has a clearly defined position and that's because he's terrible at that position. It's a case of the team needing good talent evaluators to just figure this out.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Jake

[Balta1701]

My fun hope for a solution? Play Saladino at SS next year. He hits slightly better than this year, puts up a .725-ish OPS or something like that, and combined with his defense we're talking about a young 3-4 WAR player.

 

If Anderson still looks like a star at AAA next year...then suddenly we get to pick which trade asset we want to part with. Either the guy in the top 25 or the 2nd year player who just dropped a 3-4 WAR season as a solid SS. Either way, whatever guy we want to move could be the key to bringing in enough power to fill the 3b slot and really make over this lineup.

[BlackSox13]

My fun hope for a solution? Play Saladino at SS next year. He hits slightly better than this year, puts up a .725-ish OPS or something like that, and combined with his defense we're talking about a young 3-4 WAR player.

 

If Anderson still looks like a star at AAA next year...then suddenly we get to pick which trade asset we want to part with. Either the guy in the top 25 or the 2nd year player who just dropped a 3-4 WAR season as a solid SS. Either way, whatever guy we want to move could be the key to bringing in enough power to fill the 3b slot and really make over this lineup.

Really like your train of thought here and certainly agree with it. Always better to have multiple options. Micah and Montas could be a good trade combo to get an MLB 3B.

Edited August 22, 2015 by BlackSox13

[Jose Abreu]

This is all unlikely, but this would be interesting.

2015 offseason- Sox acquire Nolan Arenado for Jose Quintana, Frank Montas, Micah Johnson, and Spencer Adams

2016 infield- Arenado/Ramirez/Sanchez/Abreu

2017- Arenado/Anderson/Sanchez/Abreu

That would be one of the league's best all-around infields, especially with Saladino coming off the bench.

[Balta1701]

Really like your train of thought here and certainly agree with it. Always better to have multiple options. Micah and Montas could be a good trade combo to get an MLB 3B.

I'd be ok with The roster showing Micah, Sanchez, Saladino, LaRoche, and a FA/traded 3b holding down the infield and the DH slot next year, throwing the 3 youngins to the wolves, and seeing what happens. 3b slot just do something to fill the role and add some depth unless we find a really good looking trade?

 

Anyway, this is not what I expect the franchise to do. I expect them to bring Alexei back and keep Saladino at 3b, and I'm not sure what they'll do at SS. They'll have to do that to "compete" next year again just like this year.

 

I would 100% not trade Montas yet. Every time someone expresses how they don't think his arm will last or will play and he responds by throwing more innings my brain flashes back to Max Scherzer. But that's me.

[Lip Man 1]

Are you saying Sanchez offense is putrid ? For May and June that was true but not for July and August. I'm leaning towards the latter stats as being closer to his true self than the "adjusting to the league" numbers of May and June. He's been hitting .303 since July 1. .319 post All Star game (.845 OPS)

 

I'll guestimate that he's somewhere around a .275, 30 doubles , 5-8 HR .725 OPS next year.

 

No I'm talking about the offense overall being putrid. As other have posted anything you get offensively out of Sanchez is a bonus. He's in the starting lineup because of his defense which is also a real need for the team but you can't go with more than one of those type players unless you somehow get three or more more quality hitters for the lineup who can fill the black holes at DH, catcher, 3rd base for example. Those are historically power / RBI positions.

 

Mark

Edited August 22, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[Thomas_Ventura_Roberts]

I like Sanchez all-around game at second base. For a team that is consistently strong in pitching, there is nothing wrong with having a player like Sanchez fill that spot. I think his improved bat is for real too. If Micah Johnson shows his offensive potential is for real, he could attempt a switch to left-field or even be a bit of an unconventional DH. If we were in a situation where we have to trade either Sanchez or Johnson because both were performing but neither was going to be switched from second base, the market would have to dictate who we would trade. Whether this off-season, next spring, next summer, or whenever, one never knows exactly how other teams will value our players or what other teams would have to offer in return. It could very well be that a very attractive trade could be made with one but not the other, but who knows how the trade front will look in December, April, or June?

[Balta1701]

No I'm talking about the offense overall being putrid. As other have posted anything you get offensively out of Sanchez is a bonus. he's in the starting lineup because of his defense which is also a real need for the team but you can't go with more than one of those type players unless you somehow get three or more more quality hitters for the lineup who can fill the blavk holes at DH, catcher, 3rd base for example. Those are historically power / RBI positions.

 

Mark

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a strong defender at 2b, but we need to acknowledge where the weaknesses is, and you're right, it's DH, 3rd base, and RF.

 

I disagree with you with including "Catcher" as a black hole or as a historically power/RBI position. Catcher is an extremely weak position around baseball. Right now, the average OPS of catchers in baseball is .681. Shortstops are .678, 2nd basemen is .701. Catcher is, right now, the 2nd weakest hitting position in baseball. I genuinely don't care if we're below average at catcher, but we absolutely need better performance from RF, 3b, and DH.

 

I think fixing this problem is a long term problem that won't happen over 1 year. I can't tell yet if Avi is part of the solution or part of the problem. For the last month he is genuinely showing some signs he's hitting better, but that could just be another fluke. I want to see him for another year in RF.

 

3b...I don't know if we have a solution in the organization. Michalczewski is showing promise but he's years away, we can't wait until 2020 to fill that spot with an above average hitter. I think that spot we genuinely need to look at the trade or FA situation, but I don't think we can do that yet. Todd Frazier could be a target but I don't trade for Todd Frazier while I'm still playing Avi in RF - it makes no sense to trade for near-FA sure things while playing Avi and Sanchez/Johnson at other positions, that was our mistake this year. I think with 3b the right solution is to find someone cheap who can just play the position for a season and then play for time to see what can become available, because I don't see a better option.

[BlackSox13]

I'd be ok with The roster showing Micah, Sanchez, Saladino, LaRoche, and a FA/traded 3b holding down the infield and the DH slot next year, throwing the 3 youngins to the wolves, and seeing what happens. 3b slot just do something to fill the role and add some depth unless we find a really good looking trade?

 

Anyway, this is not what I expect the franchise to do. I expect them to bring Alexei back and keep Saladino at 3b, and I'm not sure what they'll do at SS. They'll have to do that to "compete" next year again just like this year.

 

I would 100% not trade Montas yet. Every time someone expresses how they don't think his arm will last or will play and he responds by throwing more innings my brain flashes back to Max Scherzer. But that's me.

Id be fine with that too. In all honesty, I see 2016 shaping up to be the developmental year that 2015 really should have been. Like you said, throw the kids to the wolves and see how it plays out. I do like Saladino's arm, ALOT! Man that kid throws some lazers over to first when he needs to.

 

Sadly, I see the Sox bringing back Alexei too but I guess they just might have to in an effort to keep a warm body there until Anderson/ Alvarez/ whomever can show they are ready. I suppose I'm not really counting on the Sox signing or trading for a SS so Alexei could be the best short term option and at 10M, he's relatively cheap.

 

I admit that I'm not sold on Montas as a starter but I'm not throwing in the towel on him either, straddling the fence really. Just open to trading him for the right player(s) is all. The Scherzer comparison is a good one Balta. I never understood what the hell AZ was thinking when they traded him in the first place. It probably is a better idea to hold onto Montas but with the lack of hitting on the Sox, some pitching will have be sacrificed to the baseball gods to appease the hitting, lol.

 

If somehow Danks ( likely going nowhere) and Samardzija are still in the Sox plans for 2016, maybe the Sox look into trading Erik Johnson for a bat? Would allow the Sox to keep their youngest and most promising pitching prospects.

 

Damn, this sucks that were talking about the off season plans already and its only August 22.

[Balta1701]

If somehow Danks ( likely going nowhere) and Samardzija are still in the Sox plans for 2016, maybe the Sox look into trading Erik Johnson for a bat? Would allow the Sox to keep their youngest and most promising pitching prospects.

With the volume of pitchers the White Sox have in the organization yes, I can definitely see them trading away more pitching to fill some of these roles...but here's the thing about EJ. Would you trade for him at full price based on this season? Would you trade for him and give up the value that you'd give up for a #2/#3 starter under team control for 5 years for him?

 

I sure wouldn't. He's done good in AAA this year but his 2014 implosion still absolutely has to impact his trade value. If I'm trading for EJ, I'm trading for him because I think there's a good chance I'll get him at a bargain price. I'll give up the value of a back rotation starter for him, but I'm not giving you a king's ransom for him since I don't know that he'll succeed at the big league level given his struggles last year.

 

If we want to turn EJ into a tradeable asset where you can get the full value for him, IMO, you've got to pitch him for a year at the big league level in 2016 and show that he's a big league pitcher.

 

I wouldn't trade for him unless I knew he had established he was a big league pitcher. Or at least I wouldn't give up that much. He's a wild card at best in a trade, to me at least.

[Jose Abreu]

No I'm talking about the offense overall being putrid. As other have posted anything you get offensively out of Sanchez is a bonus. He's in the starting lineup because of his defense which is also a real need for the team but you can't go with more than one of those type players unless you somehow get three or more more quality hitters for the lineup who can fill the black holes at DH, catcher, 3rd base for example. Those are historically power / RBI positions.

 

Mark

But here you are again, taking an indirect shot at Sanchez's offense by saying "you can't go with more that one of 'those type of players'" when referring to him. You seem to think he's a defense-only player, like Brendan Ryan, but he's not. He has hit well at every minor league level and he is starting to do so in the Majors, as well, so IMO, he is more than just an elite defender.

[fathom]

Personally, I think you find a way to get Johnson 7-8 starts at the big league level the rest of the way to see how his stuff looks this year. If he comes up and he's throwing 89-90 again, then you can't rely on him.

[fathom]

But here you are again, taking an indirect shot at Sanchez's offense by saying "you can't go with more that one of 'those type of players'" when referring to him. You seem to think he's a defense-only player, like Brendan Ryan, but he's not. He has hit well at every minor league level and he is starting to do so in the Majors, as well, so IMO, he is more than just an elite defender.

 

I don't think he'll ever be a plus bat though. Doesn't walk enough or hit for enough power. However, if he can be your #9 hitter, you have the chance for a good offense.

[Jose Abreu]

I don't think he'll ever be a plus bat though. Doesn't walk enough or hit for enough power. However, if he can be your #9 hitter, you have the chance for a good offense.

I agree that he should walk more. As for power, he's a second baseman. That's not really a power position. Brian Dozier is the only HR hitting second baseman I can think of. If he were a third baseman, for example, then I'd be more concerned about his power.

[fathom]

I agree that he should walk more. As for power, he's a second baseman. That's not really a power position. Brian Dozier is the only HR hitting second baseman I can think of. If he were a third baseman, for example, then I'd be more concerned about his power.

 

It's looking like half of the starting 2nd basemen in the majors will end up with double digit homers. If Sanchez can get in the 7-10 range for a full season, that would be nice.

[Chicago White Sox]

This is all unlikely, but this would be interesting.

2015 offseason- Sox acquire Nolan Arenado for Jose Quintana, Frank Montas, Micah Johnson, and Spencer Adams

2016 infield- Arenado/Ramirez/Sanchez/Abreu

2017- Arenado/Anderson/Sanchez/Abreu

That would be one of the league's best all-around infields, especially with Saladino coming off the bench.

That would be an absolutely horrible trade for us to make. Trading Quintana plus three of our top five prospects for Arenado, as good as he is, would be a firable offense IMO.

[Balta1701]

Personally, I think you find a way to get Johnson 7-8 starts at the big league level the rest of the way to see how his stuff looks this year. If he comes up and he's throwing 89-90 again, then you can't rely on him.

And if he's throwing 93, does that mean you have 100% confidence he'll still have that fastball next year?

 

Until he proves it, I wouldn't.

[Jose Abreu]

That would be an absolutely horrible trade for us to make. Trading Quintana plus three of our top five prospects for Arenado, as good as he is, would be a firable offense IMO.

I think you're undervaluing Arenado. IMO he's a top five player in baseball on a very good contract.

[OmarComing25]

I really like the idea of putting Saladino at SS next year. Our infield defense up the middle would be rock solid. Would still need a 3B but maybe we can trade some of minor league pitching depth for one? I still really want Heyward in the offseason. Use the money we were planning on spending on Samardzija and throw it at him. There's a huge FIP-ERA gap from our pitching, and it's because our OF defense is completely dreadful. Bad range in the infield means you're giving up singles. Bad range/routes in the outfield means you're giving up doubles and triples consistently (how many has Avi given up alone?). Heyward would immediately make our OF defense a ton better, and with the solid infield defense and our pitching, if one or two of the young guys comes through like they did in 2008, we could make a run next year.

[Chicago White Sox]

And if he's throwing 93, does that mean you have 100% confidence he'll still have that fastball next year?

 

Until he proves it, I wouldn't.

Why would we expect his fastball to suddenly dissapear again? Clearly there was something wrong with him last year and right now everything suggests it was a one-time thing. However, he's still an unknown at the major league level and no doubt teams would be cautious about trading for him given his 2014 results. Our best bet is to give him a shot in 2016 and hope to turn him into a productive major league starting pitcher. He's definitely worth more to us than other clubs at the moment.

[OmarComing25]

Would teams really be super worried based on a 23 inning sample, especially now that his velocity is back to normal? I understand it being a concern, but I don't see how it would heavily impact his trade value, though I agree that his value is definitely higher to the White Sox than other teams at the moment.

[Vance Law]

My fun hope for a solution? Play Saladino at SS next year.

 

Yes, this should be a no brainer. No reason spend money on Alexei. Get some 3rd baseman who can add some offense.

 

As to the larger question, what anyone (including the front office) thinks today is pretty meaningless. We have all of these guys. The ones who perform the best should have the starting jobs/ should have their starting job taken away and given to another guy when/if they suck.

[Balta1701]

Why would we expect his fastball to suddenly dissapear again? Clearly there was something wrong with him last year and right now everything suggests it was a one-time thing. However, he's still an unknown at the major league level and no doubt teams would be cautious about trading for him given his 2014 results. Our best bet is to give him a shot in 2016 and hope to turn him into a productive major league starting pitcher. He's definitely worth more to us than other clubs at the moment.

Because I have absolutely no idea what it was last year so why should I assume it's a 1 time thing?

 

I 100% agree with the solution though. Give him a shot in 2016 and see what he does. It's literally the only way we'll know.

[Chicago White Sox]

I think you're undervaluing Arenado. IMO he's a top five player in baseball on a very good contract.

Top 5 player? I mean, what in the world are you basing that on? If you think he can develop into a top 5 player, I could see an argument be made, but he's not there yet. And what do you mean he's on a very good contract. He's got four years left of team control and they're all arbitration years. Given that Boras is his agent, you're unlikely to get anything but year to year deals until he hits free agency and gets paid crazy money.

 

I'm not sure how trading a top 20 starter in baseball with an incredibly team friendly contact (5/$40M) and half of our high end prospects makes sense for us given where our organization currently stands.

[fathom]

Because I have absolutely no idea what it was last year so why should I assume it's a 1 time thing?

 

I 100% agree with the solution though. Give him a shot in 2016 and see what he does. It's literally the only way we'll know.

 

Yep, if it was a mental thing with him last year, who's to say it won't show up again when he's back in the majors?