The conundrum in the infield

[thxfrthmmrs]

Here's the thing, I think Saladino can handle playing SS or 3B alright defensively, but I would give him every chance to stay at 3rd unless we could acquire an all star caliber 3B in the offseason. We have quite a few options at SS going into next season, there' no reason to move the only guy in the org with potential to be a regular and making the league minimum right now unless, again you're acquiring a significant upgrade. You could save the $10 mil by declining the option to Alexei, that $10 mil won't necessary get you a better player at 3B than Tyler in today's market.

[GreenSox]

Why does everyone want to trade Quintana? It doesn't make sense unless you're getting a guy like Frazier our Arenado in return, and even then, Q should be pretty much the entire package. His value is insane, and a package that was suggested earlier in this thread for just Arenado (which included Montas, Micah Johnson, and Adams) should, in addition to someone like Arenado, net the team a young, proven 125+ wRC+ catcher with great defense.

 

If we're not getting something worth 5+ WAR and cost controlled for Q, then why not keep the trio of cost controlled lefties that are likely to produce 15-18 WAR at the top of the rotation for the next 4+ years? You get two decent starters behind that, and you have the potential for a 20-25 WAR rotation, which is a playoff rotation with even a decent bullpen and offense.

You trade Quintana because a)is value is determinable; b)it would be selling high for a change; c)the Sox have a lot of young arms.

Trading for Frazier is the precise type of move the Sox should NOT make. He's not a good defender (despite the metrics), he's approaching 30, and he's having a career year. I should say "was" as he's been absolutely horrible since July. Plus you'd have him for only 2 more years.

 

Sox don't need an all star. Get a good young 3B; and trading Quintana, you could get that and a couple of really good prospects (or maybe a catcher).

Edited August 23, 2015 by GreenSox

[SCCWS]

Why does everyone want to trade Quintana? It doesn't make sense unless you're getting a guy like Frazier our Arenado in return, and even then, Q should be pretty much the entire package. His value is insane, and a package that was suggested earlier in this thread for just Arenado (which included Montas, Micah Johnson, and Adams) should, in addition to someone like Arenado, net the team a young, proven 125+ wRC+ catcher with great defense.

 

If we're not getting something worth 5+ WAR and cost controlled for Q, then why not keep the trio of cost controlled lefties that are likely to produce 15-18 WAR at the top of the rotation for the next 4+ years? You get two decent starters behind that, and you have the potential for a 20-25 WAR rotation, which is a playoff rotation with even a decent bullpen and offense.

 

 

This year the cost controlled trio of lefties has a good bullpen, a lousy offense and they are 24-22 this year. You can keep them but you have to find a way to add 2-3 pieces to the offense. Unfortunately the chance to add one piece for Shark didn't happen. So you trade Q and should get 2 pieces in return or you gamble and trade a few minor league pieces and hope you hit on 2 pieces in return. Or you use 2016 as a wait and see on the young players and continue to be a .500 team

[Jose Abreu]

Sox don't need an all star. Get a good young 3B; and trading Quintana, you could get that and a couple of really good prospects (or maybe a catcher).

Who do you have in mind, then? There aren't really many "good, young 3B" out there, and the ones who are out there are all-stars (Arenado, Machado).

[Chicago White Sox]

Agree the three needs that need to be addressed are RF, 3B, & C.

 

If I'm Hahn, I'm all-in on adding a RF via free agency. Upton & Heyward would be my primary targets (I prefer Justin), but I'd be perfectly fine with Gordon as well if the years weren't ridiculous. Point is that it's incredibly rare in this day in age to have multiple stars who play the same position hit free agency at the same time, let alone two who are still in their late 20s. If we cut bait on Shark & Alexei, there is simply no reason we can't afford one of these guys.

 

3B is a bit trickier. I really think we need to go the trade route here, but I'm stuggling to come up with realistic names. I'd rather not give up a significant package for a guy with less than three years of team control. So if such a player is not available, I have no problem seeing if Zobrist would do a short-term deal and play 3B. He was born in Illinois and currently lives in Nashvile (an hour flight), so playing in Chicago could be attractive to him. However, I could see the Cubs being a player for him as well and that would f*** things up for us.

 

As for catcher, I love the Plawecki idea. He's having a tough year, but has a ton of upside. If we can't find a way to match up with the Mets, we should still be targeting a young catcher (AA or above) that can contribute in the very near future.

[GreenSox]

Who do you have in mind, then? There aren't really many "good, young 3B" out there, and the ones who are out there are all-stars (Arenado, Machado).

I don't know the orgs well enough to say.

But overpaying for a career year will hurt the team.

if you have to suck it up with Saladino, so be it. At least the D is there.

I'd like to see Sanchez get work at short in September. See if Micah has improved his D...his bat should really work at 2nd.

Go for improvements in the OF, DH and C instead. The Sox have 5 or so areas in which they could improve; there have to be young players somewhere.

Someone mentioned a signing of Zobrist - that's an idea. Won't cost players.

Edited August 23, 2015 by GreenSox

[GreenSox]

Agree the three needs that need to be addressed are RF, 3B, & C.

 

If I'm Hahn, I'm all-in on adding a RF via free agency. Upton & Heyward would be my primary targets (I prefer Justin), but I'd be perfectly fine with Gordon as well if the years weren't ridiculous. Point is that it's incredibly rare in this day in age to have multiple stars who play the same position hit free agency at the same time, let alone two who are still in their late 20s. If we cut bait on Shark & Alexei, there is simply no reason we can't afford one of these guys.

Why RF? LF is a far bigger problem. Avi is young, cheap and could improve and is hitting about the same as Melky. Melky Cabrera and his .706 OPS, high contract, and 2 remaining years, is a much bigger problem.

Edited August 23, 2015 by GreenSox

[Jose Abreu]

Melky has been fine. We knew what we were getting from him defensively, and his bat has picked up now. LF isn't the problem, nor is C.

[Chicago White Sox]

Why RF? LF is a far bigger problem. Avi is young, cheap and could improve and is hitting about the same as Melky. Melky Cabrera and his .706 OPS, high contract, and 2 remaining years, is a much bigger problem.

Melky has had a very nice 2nd half to the season. That's closer to the player I'm expecting going forward. Avi may be young and will likely get better with the bat, but his lack plate discipline limits his overall upside and when you combine that with his absolutely horrible defensive instincts, he'll never be an above-average player IMO. I haven't completely written him off yet, but I'm not passing on star players to give him another 600 ABs.

[thxfrthmmrs]

I don't know the orgs well enough to say.

But overpaying for a career year will hurt the team.

if you have to suck it up with Saladino, so be it. At least the D is there.

I'd like to see Sanchez get work at short in September. See if Micah has improved his D...his bat should really work at 2nd.

Go for improvements in the OF, DH and C instead. The Sox have 5 or so areas in which they could improve; there have to be young players somewhere.

Someone mentioned a signing of Zobrist - that's an idea. Won't cost players.

 

On some level, Saladino could be the "good, young 3B" you want us to trade for, one that we won't have to trade Q for. As you mentioned, at least the D is there, and the bat has some potential, and we know he's got good speed on the base paths. Personally, I'd like to give him at least half a season more at 3B before moving him to a utility role. The other issue is there is virtually no other "good, young 3B" available for trade who isn't an all star caliber player. Moustakas, Duffy, Bryant, and Seager fit the criteria, but those teams aren't looking to trade them.

[Balta1701]

On some level, Saladino could be the "good, young 3B" you want us to trade for, one that we won't have to trade Q for. As you mentioned, at least the D is there, and the bat has some potential, and we know he's got good speed on the base paths. Personally, I'd like to give him at least half a season more at 3B before moving him to a utility role. The other issue is there is virtually no other "good, young 3B" available for trade who isn't an all star caliber player. Moustakas, Duffy, Bryant, and Seager fit the criteria, but those teams aren't looking to trade them.

I think the key comparison between Saladino and all the other names you mentioned is that Saladino doesn't seem to have a bat that can carry himself at 3b. Sub-.700 OPS when he was at AA over several seasons, .746 career OPS in the minors, .704 this year before getting called up from Charlotte. If you just assume that guys will take a step down offensively in the big leagues, then you might hope for him to be a .675 OPS or maybe slightly better guy in the big leagues.

 

Even if he's a solid defender and a solid baserunner, that's a below average bat at that position and very much so. On the other hand, that's an average to above average bat at SS.

 

If Saladino is going to be looked at as a 3b for the next couple years, we need to find some "very much above average bats" somewhere else. Jose Abreu alone isn't enough to offset having this many weak, defense-first players in the lineup - basically right now the only 2 above average offensive players we have in our lineup out of 9 are Abreu and Eaton. We simply aren't going to win with 1 average offensive player, 2 above average offensive layers, and 6 below average offensive players in our lineup.

 

We need offense somewhere.

[Balta1701]

Why does everyone want to trade Quintana? It doesn't make sense unless you're getting a guy like Frazier our Arenado in return, and even then, Q should be pretty much the entire package. His value is insane, and a package that was suggested earlier in this thread for just Arenado (which included Montas, Micah Johnson, and Adams) should, in addition to someone like Arenado, net the team a young, proven 125+ wRC+ catcher with great defense.

 

If we're not getting something worth 5+ WAR and cost controlled for Q, then why not keep the trio of cost controlled lefties that are likely to produce 15-18 WAR at the top of the rotation for the next 4+ years? You get two decent starters behind that, and you have the potential for a 20-25 WAR rotation, which is a playoff rotation with even a decent bullpen and offense.

The argument is pretty simple.

 

The White Sox have the weakest lineup in the big leagues. They will not win unless they can upgrade their lineup.

 

The White Sox have excess pitching. The White Sox have spent their last 2 first round draft picks on pitcher in addition to trading for pitchers (Montas) and picked up other pitchers in trades.

 

Trading from our strength to partially fill our weakness makes general sense. Finding an actual match is obviously a challenge, but "A great rotation and a terrible lineup" leads to a season like the one we're watching right now.

[Jose Abreu]

Here's a crazy trade idea for a 3B. Yasmany Tomas has played very well for the D-Backs (who have the #1 offense in the NL), but he hasn't had as much playing time as he should have with Jake Lamb at third and David Peralta, AJ Pollock, and Ender Inciarte playing well in the outfield. His defense at 3B has not been very good, but he brings lots of offense. What would the price be for Tomas, who, like Abreu, is singed for 6/68? The fact that he's Cuban could help him want to come here (Ramirez, Abreu, Viciedo in the system, Nieto in the system, Sox history with Cubans). I am, however, unsure of his contract situation when it comes to trades.

[thxfrthmmrs]

I think the key comparison between Saladino and all the other names you mentioned is that Saladino doesn't seem to have a bat that can carry himself at 3b. Sub-.700 OPS when he was at AA over several seasons, .746 career OPS in the minors, .704 this year before getting called up from Charlotte. If you just assume that guys will take a step down offensively in the big leagues, then you might hope for him to be a .675 OPS or maybe slightly better guy in the big leagues.

 

Even if he's a solid defender and a solid baserunner, that's a below average bat at that position and very much so. On the other hand, that's an average to above average bat at SS.

 

If Saladino is going to be looked at as a 3b for the next couple years, we need to find some "very much above average bats" somewhere else. Jose Abreu alone isn't enough to offset having this many weak, defense-first players in the lineup - basically right now the only 2 above average offensive players we have in our lineup out of 9 are Abreu and Eaton. We simply aren't going to win with 1 average offensive player, 2 above average offensive layers, and 6 below average offensive players in our lineup.

 

We need offense somewhere.

 

If there is an upgrade at 3B who could bring a better bat and also above average D at the position, then I am all for it. But in the mean time, there's no one who fit the criteria in free agency. Chris Davis is exactly the type of player we need to avoid, and everyone else aren't good enough to be long term solutions. Pitching is our strength currently, but we're losing Shark this year and Danks is done after next season. We aren't in a position to trade Q for a position player by any means. And I am not sure what kind of return you could get for just Micah and/or Montas.

 

All in all, Saladino isn't a bad fall back option, plus he's making league minimum, so that should give us more flexibility to go after upgrades in other positions.

[thxfrthmmrs]

The argument is pretty simple.

 

The White Sox have the weakest lineup in the big leagues. They will not win unless they can upgrade their lineup.

 

The White Sox have excess pitching. The White Sox have spent their last 2 first round draft picks on pitcher in addition to trading for pitchers (Montas) and picked up other pitchers in trades.

 

Trading from our strength to partially fill our weakness makes general sense. Finding an actual match is obviously a challenge, but "A great rotation and a terrible lineup" leads to a season like the one we're watching right now.

 

We also had the one of the worst defense in the league. If we could get a full season of good defense at 3B, full season of Sanchez at 2B, and get a defensive RF who could also bring a bat, yes I am talking about J Hey or J Up, our defense would immensely improve. Gillaspie, Micah, and Avi were some of the worst fielders at their position this year.

 

Great defense would further help our pitching, that plus assuming Rodon would take a big leap in his second year, we might suddenly be a favorite to a WC spot without comprising our pitching strength.

[Lip Man 1]

Melky has been fine. We knew what we were getting from him defensively, and his bat has picked up now. LF isn't the problem, nor is C.

 

With respect I disagree. Catching is almost a black hole. Add in the poor defense from both Flowers and Soto and you have a real issue in my opinion.

 

Soto would make a good back up playing once or twice a week but no more than that. Flowers is simply a lost cause.

 

Mark

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

You trade Quintana because a)is value is determinable; b)it would be selling high for a change; c)the Sox have a lot of young arms.

Trading for Frazier is the precise type of move the Sox should NOT make. He's not a good defender (despite the metrics), he's approaching 30, and he's having a career year. I should say "was" as he's been absolutely horrible since July. Plus you'd have him for only 2 more years.

 

Sox don't need an all star. Get a good young 3B; and trading Quintana, you could get that and a couple of really good prospects (or maybe a catcher).

 

I 'm against trading Q but if push came to shove I'd love to get Kang and Polanco from the Pirates.

[Balta1701]

I 'm against trading Q but if push came to shove I'd love to get Kang and Polanco from the Pirates.

I would say the Pirates are extremely unlikely to move either of those for pitching. They have 2 top pitching prospects coming up and Kang is the obvious long-term replacement for Neil Walker. They also don't have any obvious replacement for Polonco.

[Jose Abreu]

With respect I disagree. Catching is almost a black hole. Add in the poor defense from both Flowers and Soto and you have a real issue in my opinion.

 

Soto would make a good back up playing once or twice a week but no more than that. Flowers is simply a lost cause.

 

Mark

Their defense can be improved, but offensively, the Flowers/Soto combo when combined offensively is about league-average. While Flowers is below average offensively, catching has become such a weak hitting position that Flowers is actually an average hitter for a catcher.

[Balta1701]

Their defense can be improved, but offensively, the Flowers/Soto combo when combined offensively is about league-average. While Flowers is below average offensively, catching has become such a weak hitting position that Flowers is actually an average hitter for a catcher.

The 2014 Flowers was about average in production for a catcher but the 2015 Flowers has been quite a bit worse than the 2014 version. Flowers has been below average with the bat.

 

Soto has been above average with the bat, but I'd say it's extremely likely someone gives him a decent contract offer this offseason, perhaps for a multi year deal. How much are you willing to pay to keep Soto?

[LDF]

The argument is pretty simple.

 

The White Sox have the weakest lineup in the big leagues. They will not win unless they can upgrade their lineup.

 

The White Sox have excess pitching. The White Sox have spent their last 2 first round draft picks on pitcher in addition to trading for pitchers (Montas) and picked up other pitchers in trades.

 

Trading from our strength to partially fill our weakness makes general sense. Finding an actual match is obviously a challenge, but "A great rotation and a terrible lineup" leads to a season like the one we're watching right now.

this is very true. the sox does not have ready to crack the lineup that they can trade for assets. they have a really nice group of young pitchers really on the cusp of separating them selves from other pitchers, regardless of which team they are on.

 

the sox has deep holes that were not address last off season. the only way to do that is thru fa rt or thru trades.

[LDF]

We also had the one of the worst defense in the league. If we could get a full season of good defense at 3B, full season of Sanchez at 2B, and get a defensive RF who could also bring a bat, yes I am talking about J Hey or J Up, our defense would immensely improve. Gillaspie, Micah, and Avi were some of the worst fielders at their position this year.

 

Great defense would further help our pitching, that plus assuming Rodon would take a big leap in his second year, we might suddenly be a favorite to a WC spot without comprising our pitching strength.

 

while that is a great idea and one i was for, but now, if the sox do not make the protected top 10, are you or anyone willing to waste a first rounder as a penalty for signing a player with a QO????

[LDF]

With respect I disagree. Catching is almost a black hole. Add in the poor defense from both Flowers and Soto and you have a real issue in my opinion.

 

Soto would make a good back up playing once or twice a week but no more than that. Flowers is simply a lost cause.

 

Mark

 

you are correct, they need to address this some how.

[SCCWS]

On some level, Saladino could be the "good, young 3B" you want us to trade for, one that we won't have to trade Q for. As you mentioned, at least the D is there, and the bat has some potential, and we know he's got good speed on the base paths. Personally, I'd like to give him at least half a season more at 3B before moving him to a utility role. The other issue is there is virtually no other "good, young 3B" available for trade who isn't an all star caliber player. Moustakas, Duffy, Bryant, and Seager fit the criteria, but those teams aren't looking to trade them.

 

We do??? Saladino in 153 AB has 2 doubles. To put that in contrast, Sanchez in 286 AB has 20. Boni ( 78) and Beckham ( 181) each have 8. So Saladino is strictly a singles hitter since he is getting some singles but is not able to turn them into doubles.

 

[BlackSox13]

We do??? Saladino in 153 AB has 2 doubles. To put that in contrast, Sanchez in 286 AB has 20. Boni ( 78) and Beckham ( 181) each have 8. So Saladino is strictly a singles hitter since he is getting some singles but is not able to turn them into doubles.

So a lack of doubles means Saladino does not have good speed on the base paths?

 

Ive seen Saladino running the base paths and he does have good speed. His lack of doubles comes from his bat, not his lack of speed. Also, Saladino was 25/27 in steals for Charlotte this year so yeah, he does in fact have good speed. Not Micah Johnson speed but speed nonetheless.