The conundrum in the infield

[thxfrthmmrs]

So a lack of doubles means Saladino does not have good speed on the base paths?

 

Ive seen Saladino running the base paths and he does have good speed. His lack of doubles comes from his bat, not his lack of speed. Also, Saladino was 25/27 in steals for Charlotte this year so yeah, he does in fact have good speed. Not Micah Johnson speed but speed nonetheless.

 

Thank you. And considering he's playing 3B right now, he's got very good speed for the position.

[fathom]

Saladino is a good base runner, but he doesn't seem to get out of the box very quickly

[BlackSox13]

Thank you. And considering he's playing 3B right now, he's got very good speed for the position.

Yes he does. After many years of the Sox playing station to station Baseball due the likes of Paulie, Crede, AJ and so on, Saladino's speed is a breath of fresh air. Heck man, I think Saladino has good speed for the SS position as well.

[he gone.]

This is a great topic, and honestly one where I've gone back and forth over and over on. Also why I'm glad I'm not Hahn. It's such a puzzle -- and dominoes in a way. Honestly, the best move long term may be to let Ramirez walk this off-season. However, I think that seriously hurts our ability to win next year as well. Yes, there are a lot of Ramirez naysayers. I still think he's a very good SS. And when people look at his power numbers they neglect his doubles numbers. Moving on to the question though.

 

Saladino -- I think it's a waste to have him starting on this team next year. He is not a long term option starting on a team where there are other holes. Sure if you have the Toronto Blue Jays lineup, a Saladino is actually a very good piece to the puzzle. Not on this team, and not our future teams. We just don't have the offense. He should be our utility guy however. Perfect bench guy. Perfect fill in. Can play all the positions, speed, plays the game right. Want him on my 25 man roster. Not starting.

 

Sanchez -- Saladino 2.0. Younger, slightly better. Still on the fence. The Sanchez we saw earlier this season? I don't think is the real Sanchez. The one were seeing now? Probably not either. I think he can be a .275-.280 guy with defense, but very limited in power, doubles, speed, etc. Again, hard to have that kind of guy starting 162 on an ideal playoff contending team year in and year out when you have the other holes we all know this team has and will continue to have elsewhere.

 

Micah -- I really like him. Just ... no defense. Can you live with him and Anderson up the middle in the future? Unfortunately I don't think you can. You can't have those guys behind Sale, Q, Rodon, Fulmer ... its just not fair to the strength of our team. If you want to hear something out of the box. Why not DH? I'm tired of rules having to be followed because thats the way its been done in the past. The guy is an offensive MLB player. He can be a .290-.300ba guy, not much power, but can also run the paths. I think honestly this is a good role. I'd want to explore it.

 

Anderson -- I do believe he should be the 2B or SS of the future. As long as a Sanchez up the middle, Anderson can be there.

 

3B -- the key. I think we really need to explore a solid option there. We haven't had a 3B, a real one, since Crede. That's a decade.

 

So I guess in the end I want.

 

2016: 3b? trade hopefully Arenado!! pipedream -- ss Ramirez -- 2b Sanchez DH - Micah, UTIL - Saladino

2017: Arenado, SS - Sanchez, 2B - Anderson, DH - Micah, UTIL - Saladino

 

 

[Quin]

You can trade Q for Arenado, but I ain't throwing in a farm with him.

[Jose Abreu]

Where do you guys get the idea that Sanchez is slow? Just because he doesn't steal bases doesn't mean he doesn't have any speed.

[Jose Abreu]

This is a great topic, and honestly one where I've gone back and forth over and over on. Also why I'm glad I'm not Hahn. It's such a puzzle -- and dominoes in a way. Honestly, the best move long term may be to let Ramirez walk this off-season. However, I think that seriously hurts our ability to win next year as well. Yes, there are a lot of Ramirez naysayers. I still think he's a very good SS. And when people look at his power numbers they neglect his doubles numbers. Moving on to the question though.

 

Saladino -- I think it's a waste to have him starting on this team next year. He is not a long term option starting on a team where there are other holes. Sure if you have the Toronto Blue Jays lineup, a Saladino is actually a very good piece to the puzzle. Not on this team, and not our future teams. We just don't have the offense. He should be our utility guy however. Perfect bench guy. Perfect fill in. Can play all the positions, speed, plays the game right. Want him on my 25 man roster. Not starting.

 

Sanchez -- Saladino 2.0. Younger, slightly better. Still on the fence. The Sanchez we saw earlier this season? I don't think is the real Sanchez. The one were seeing now? Probably not either. I think he can be a .275-.280 guy with defense, but very limited in power, doubles, speed, etc. Again, hard to have that kind of guy starting 162 on an ideal playoff contending team year in and year out when you have the other holes we all know this team has and will continue to have elsewhere.

 

Micah -- I really like him. Just ... no defense. Can you live with him and Anderson up the middle in the future? Unfortunately I don't think you can. You can't have those guys behind Sale, Q, Rodon, Fulmer ... its just not fair to the strength of our team. If you want to hear something out of the box. Why not DH? I'm tired of rules having to be followed because thats the way its been done in the past. The guy is an offensive MLB player. He can be a .290-.300ba guy, not much power, but can also run the paths. I think honestly this is a good role. I'd want to explore it.

 

Anderson -- I do believe he should be the 2B or SS of the future. As long as a Sanchez up the middle, Anderson can be there.

 

3B -- the key. I think we really need to explore a solid option there. We haven't had a 3B, a real one, since Crede. That's a decade.

 

So I guess in the end I want.

 

2016: 3b? trade hopefully Arenado!! pipedream -- ss Ramirez -- 2b Sanchez DH - Micah, UTIL - Saladino

2017: Arenado, SS - Sanchez, 2B - Anderson, DH - Micah, UTIL - Saladino

Good post. I agree with your stance on the DH and Micah being a potential candidate for it. I also agree that Micah and Anderson would be a bad defensive middle-infield. As for Sanchez, did you know he has 20 doubles this year? I was surprised to learn that. As I said in my previous post, he does have some speed, too. His only real issue is power, but he's a second baseman. Power isn't really needed from that position.

[beautox]

Saladino has constantly been hurt since becoming a pro. Truthfully its hard to gauge what his real power potential is considering that power is usually the last tool to develop and he has often been hampered by overcoming injuries. I don't think becoming a player similar to Trevor Plouffe is out of the question with a tick less power. If you extrapolated his 2015 stats out over the course of a season's worth of ABs (600) he would be a 2 win player just off his defense and base running. if he is capable of putting up a like like .250/.330/.420 all the while improving his BB & K%'s we could be looking at a 3Win player on the cheap.

 

I personally want to see what all of Sanchez, Saladino & Thompson are about and what they're capable of at the major league level. I see Saladino and Thompson as very positive bench contributors but the current state of the white sox should afford them plenty of looks and chances to prove people like myself wrong.

 

Going into this offseason I think 3B should be our biggest point to address. If we let Alexei go we can see what we have in Saladino at SS and if its a horrible failure Anderson should be ready after the super 2 cut off and he can be moved back into a utility role.

 

As for catcher situation try to package Avi and Micah and a low level arm for one of my previously mentioned targets. If that fails re-sign Soto and bring back our old friend Pierzynski as a platoon.

 

Soto vs. LHP - .324/.410/.618

AJP vs. RHP - .309/.343/.462

 

It doesn't have to be a strict platoon per se but it might be cheaper than acquiring a young catcher and I'm pretty sure AJ could be had for a 2 year deal the second year being an option and a buy out. I don't think its smart money to go after Wieters this offseason.

[Señor Ding-Dong]

I've been in Sanchez's corner for a while now and I've always thought his ceiling is higher than what most others give him credit for. He's a seriously overlooked and undervalued prospect. To me, he's the real deal, and I feel like if he played for the Cubs or something he'd be getting a lot more attention, both locally and nationally.

 

He did okay in his brief stint with the Sox last season, and as everyone knows he was awful with the bat during the months of May and June this season. However, that's long behind him and he's been tearing it up since July 1st. Sanchez has hit at every level while progressing through the minors at a rapid pace, but he did struggle in his first go around in AAA only to tear it up once he adjusted to that level. It appears the same thing is happening with him at the ML level this season. While his July numbers (.323/.344) are likely unsustainable and largely the product of a hotstreak, the numbers he's putting up this month (.261/.311) are something I don't think he'll have much of a problem replicating going forward.

 

I think we're looking at a young player who will consistently be in the Gold Glove conversation at 2B, hit .275+ with 7-12 HRs, a good amount of doubles, and a .330+ OBP. If he can do that, which I think is a real possibility as he continues to improve and adapt to major league pitching, you're looking at an all-star. I don't think he'll hit any lower than .260 as an absolute floor, and while his lack of power is concerning, 2B isn't exactly a traditional power position. He's only 23, and as he continues to mature I think he'll develop enough strength, which combined with playing his home games at the Cell, to allow him to hit in the low double-digits for HRs. As far as gap power/XBH, he was always thought of as a slappy, singles hitter, but he's hit a lot of doubles this season so hopefully that will remain a part of his game going forward, and I don't see why it wouldn't.

 

I'm very high on Sanchez and he's my 2B until he proves he shouldn't be.

[Señor Ding-Dong]

Offensively, Michah Johnson is a ML caliber player right now. We saw that during his brief stint with the Sox this season. While unspectacular, he showed a good approach at the plate even if he struggled to take advantage of his speed on the basepaths. We all know about his defense, so I'm not going to spend too much time on that.

 

I don't know if he'll ever figure that part of his game out, and he is rather injury prone, but I've love to have him as an unorthodox DH as his speed and bat could be real weapons in the majors. I doubt we'll have a strong enough lineup to allow us the luxury of having a non-power DH though, so he's kind of in a tough spot.

 

I'd like to see his bat and speed in the majors, but I just don't see how we can work him in unless he's able to improve his defense significantly or we have a strong enough lineup to allow him to DH. Neither of those seem likely, so if he can be the key piece that brings us back a solid player at a position of need, I say go for it, given the positives that Sanchez and Saladino, to a lesser extent, have shown and the fact that we have Anderson and Alvarez waiting in the wings.

[Señor Ding-Dong]

Saladino is the perfect bench player, and I don't mind him starting as a stop-gap solution until a better option comes along. I'm down with him manning SS until Anderson is ready, which would allow us to decline Alexei's option and spend that money elsewhere. His defense is fantastic, and from watching him play 3B he clearly has enough arm for SS.

 

I love the type of player that he is and he's my long-term utility guy, which is important as it will allow us to say goodbye to the likes of Beckham, Bonifacio, and Leury Garcia. Once Anderson is ready, the SS position should be his and Sanchez looks like the long-term answer at 2B, so hopefully we can aquire a 3B which would allow Saladino to be used in his proper role as a utility bench guy, getting a couple starts per week all around the diamond.

 

I think that's there's an outside chance that his bat will play well enough for him to stick as a starter at SS, given his great defense and solid speed. If that happens, then he should become either a great trade chip or one of the best bench players in the league, assuming Anderson becomes what he should be.

[SCCWS]

Where do you guys get the idea that Sanchez is slow? Just because he doesn't steal bases doesn't mean he doesn't have any speed.

 

It is not he doesn't have speed. But only having 3 doubles in 150+ plate appearances is incredibly low. Compare that to Sanchez w 20 in 280+. Could be a sign that Saladino is not hitting gaps w his hits or he is very slow out of the box.

 

[Balta1701]

Saladino has constantly been hurt since becoming a pro. Truthfully its hard to gauge what his real power potential is considering that power is usually the last tool to develop and he has often been hampered by overcoming injuries. I don't think becoming a player similar to Trevor Plouffe is out of the question with a tick less power. If you extrapolated his 2015 stats out over the course of a season's worth of ABs (600) he would be a 2 win player just off his defense and base running. if he is capable of putting up a like like .250/.330/.420 all the while improving his BB & K%'s we could be looking at a 3Win player on the cheap.

 

I personally want to see what all of Sanchez, Saladino & Thompson are about and what they're capable of at the major league level. I see Saladino and Thompson as very positive bench contributors but the current state of the white sox should afford them plenty of looks and chances to prove people like myself wrong.

 

Going into this offseason I think 3B should be our biggest point to address. If we let Alexei go we can see what we have in Saladino at SS and if its a horrible failure Anderson should be ready after the super 2 cut off and he can be moved back into a utility role.

 

As for catcher situation try to package Avi and Micah and a low level arm for one of my previously mentioned targets. If that fails re-sign Soto and bring back our old friend Pierzynski as a platoon.

 

Soto vs. LHP - .324/.410/.618

AJP vs. RHP - .309/.343/.462

 

It doesn't have to be a strict platoon per se but it might be cheaper than acquiring a young catcher and I'm pretty sure AJ could be had for a 2 year deal the second year being an option and a buy out. I don't think its smart money to go after Wieters this offseason.

Points in reply on Saladino:

 

You use the "if you extrapolate his 2015 stats" regarding his defense and fielding, but one of the things illustrated by our discussions of him last week is that it's extremely unlikely that you can extrapolate his 2015 stats. He's on pace right now to be something like a 4.5-5 rWAR player on defense on his current rate. That kind of rate puts him as having a nearly unprecedented defensive season if he could extrapolate it - the best ever was 5.4 and that's Andrelton Simmons at shortstop. Only a handful of guys have ever put up >4 defensive WAR seasons at 3b, Manny Machado is one, Brooks Robinson is another, and even then they couldn't sustain that pace for more than 1 season. In other words, you have to expect some falloff from him at 3b in terms of defense. He could still be very good but "if he is by far the best defensive 3b in baseball history" is not something you can just assume for a guy based on a great first 2 months.

 

Second...if you look at the numbers you put up for him by adding, you've just said Saladino would be putting up a .750 OPS. That would be basically tied with Adam Eaton as the 2nd best offensive producer on the team if he did that right now. That would be him showing no dropoff whatsoever from his minor league averages including seasons at lower levels. That's a huge jump in performance for Saladino and it's another one I don't think we can count on.

 

So, if you're expecting a 3 WAR player on the cheap, I think that the extreme numbers you just had to project for him at 3b implies how hard it is. He needs to be either a historically good, hall of fame quality defensive 3b, or he needs to take a huge jump forward offensively in the big leagues and hit as well as Adam Eaton. I think you make a strong case that he can't be a 3 WAR player at 3b.

 

However, that's why I want to see him at short next year. At Shortstop, the average OPS is about 70 points lower than at 3b. With a .750 OPS at 3b he's a league average bat, with a .680 OPS at shortstop he's a league average bat. If his glove is strong enough to hold at SS, his bat could well be good enough to be your 3 WAR player next year on the cheap and it doesn't require him to do anything I don't think he can do.

 

 

Second point: I think both Soto and AJ are going to get more money than we expect this offseason. Combining Soto and AJ you're on pace for ~3 WAR worth of catchers. Maybe both of them come at a discount because of age/HGHistory/inconsistency, but I think there's a good chance that for those 2 you'll need to invest $10 million, maybe more, in your catcher's spot next year. Not something I'd personally do, but of course that's coming from the "this team isn't competitive right now" perspective that I have.