White Sox Futility Under Williams/Hahn/Ventura

[OmarComing25]

White Sox defensive ranks over the last 7 years (ERA rank in parentheses):

 

2015: 30th (17th)

2014: 28th (27th)

2013: 22nd (20th)

2012: 8th (19th)

2011: 20th (19th)

2010: 27th (18th)

2009: 25th (7th)

 

Not as much of a correlation as I would have thought, but being 28th in defense over the past 7 years can't have helped our ERA. From 2009-2015 our pitching is 20th in ERA but 2nd in fWAR.

 

 

[LDF]

Then don't use USCF as a reason Coop can do no wrong. If you are going to use it, shiuldn't they have a split well below average?The 1st inning runs this season have been ridiculous. It hints at pitchers not be ready when the game starts. They seem to be warming up just as much as other teams, but something is missing. Maybe they aren't mentally ready. That would be on the pitching coach. If Coop gets praise for the good, he needs to be ripped for the bad.

don't get me wrong, i am in agreement with the bold.

 

but is it the coaches fault for that. i mean, it been like this the whole season, i would imagine that the coaches and yes even the GM and team meeting are discussing this.

 

so is it the mgr, the coaches, the players or is it the atmosphere of the clubhouse.

[Lip Man 1]

don't get me wrong, i am in agreement with the bold.

 

but is it the coaches fault for that. i mean, it been like this the whole season, i would imagine that the coaches and yes even the GM and team meeting are discussing this.

 

so is it the mgr, the coaches, the players or is it the atmosphere of the clubhouse.

 

It's a combination of all of the above in my opinion. All share in some of the blame.

 

Things aren't helped when Mark Parent makes the statement (paraphrasing) that coaches shouldn't have to work on fundamentals every day with guys because "they are major leaguers..."

 

Mark

 

[Balta1701]

Then don't use USCF as a reason Coop can do no wrong. If you are going to use it, shiuldn't they have a split well below average?The 1st inning runs this season have been ridiculous. It hints at pitchers not be ready when the game starts. They seem to be warming up just as much as other teams, but something is missing. Maybe they aren't mentally ready. That would be on the pitching coach. If Coop gets praise for the good, he needs to be ripped for the bad.

So you think Coop did great work in 2014?

[LDF]

It's a combination of all of the above in my opinion. All share in some of the blame.

 

Things aren't helped when Mark Parent makes the statement (paraphrasing) that coaches shouldn't have to work on fundamentals every day with guys because "they are major leaguers..."

 

Mark

 

yeah i agree..... then what in the hades are coaches suppose to do????

[Panerista]

yeah i agree..... then what in the hades are coaches suppose to do????

And it's not like Ventura and company have some deeper system.

 

The team has needed fundamentals work for 2.5 seasons. Can't run a mile before you can walk.

[2nd_city_saint787]

And it's not like Ventura and company have some deeper system.

 

The team has needed fundamentals work for 2.5 seasons. Can't run a mile before you can walk.

 

Should have learned to walk years ago. I agree with Parent, you shouldn't have to work on the fundamentals of guys who have reached the highest level of their profession.

[Dick Allen]

If you have players that reached the major leagues but have no clue when it comes to fundamentals, you have problems other than your major league staff. A major league baseball player on day 1 should understand how the game is played.

[southsider2k5]

It's a combination of all of the above in my opinion. All share in some of the blame.

 

Things aren't helped when Mark Parent makes the statement (paraphrasing) that coaches shouldn't have to work on fundamentals every day with guys because "they are major leaguers..."

 

Mark

 

"You shouldn't have to", isn't the same as, "we don't".

[southsider2k5]

If you have players that reached the major leagues but have no clue when it comes to fundamentals, you have problems other than your major league staff. A major league baseball player on day 1 should understand how the game is played.

 

Then again, you see it all over baseball. One of the biggest problems Stalin Castro has had for all his major league career is that he is baseball stupid. And he is far from the only one. If you pay attention to the teams we play, you see it pretty much every single game, and it happens on teams who are known for their great managers.

[Jerksticks]

Then again, you see it all over baseball. One of the biggest problems Stalin Castro has had for all his major league career is that he is baseball stupid. And he is far from the only one. If you pay attention to the teams we play, you see it pretty much every single game, and it happens on teams who are known for their great managers.

Yes! There are sooo many horrible position players playing. Teams are littered with guys hitting .230

[southsider2k5]

Yes! There are sooo many horrible position players playing. Teams are littered with guys hitting .230

 

I am not referring to bad baseball players here. I am referring to players with no baseball IQ. There is a difference.

[shysocks]

Then don't use USCF as a reason Coop can do no wrong. If you are going to use it, shiuldn't they have a split well below average?The 1st inning runs this season have been ridiculous. It hints at pitchers not be ready when the game starts. They seem to be warming up just as much as other teams, but something is missing. Maybe they aren't mentally ready. That would be on the pitching coach. If Coop gets praise for the good, he needs to be ripped for the bad.

Are you really arguing that the Cell isn't a hitters' park? You're looking only at 2015, which is a huge anomaly. 2009-2015, White Sox pitching has an ERA of 4.13 at home and 4.06 away. The MLB totals during the same time are 3.81 at home and 4.18 away.

 

To the original discussion, which was that the Sox being in the bottom half of MLB in ERA is an indictment on the pitching staff, add the facts that the Sox play in the league with a DH and that by any defensive metric you want to use they've been one of the bottom three teams. Sox pitching sitting 20th in ERA through the past 7 years is a damn miracle.

 

He is not perfect, but Cooper continues to "get a pass" because the pitching continues to not be the problem.

[Dunt]

White Sox defensive ranks over the last 7 years (ERA rank in parentheses):

 

2015: 30th (17th)

2014: 28th (27th)

2013: 22nd (20th)

2012: 8th (19th)

2011: 20th (19th)

2010: 27th (18th)

2009: 25th (7th)

 

Not as much of a correlation as I would have thought, but being 28th in defense over the past 7 years can't have helped our ERA. From 2009-2015 our pitching is 20th in ERA but 2nd in fWAR.

 

It's interesting to think about next year and ways to get better immediately. Our pitching staff looks relatively set for the next couple years and should be much better with a defensively sound team behind them. Do you keep Sanchez at second and Saladino at third? Both rate out extremely well in terms of their defensive abilities. Do you see a bigger platoon between Eaton and TNT? Do you take all this money coming off the books in the next couple seasons and go after a big fish like Heyward? He immediately makes this team much better defensively.

[OmarComing25]

It's interesting to think about next year and ways to get better immediately. Our pitching staff looks relatively set for the next couple years and should be much better with a defensively sound team behind them. Do you keep Sanchez at second and Saladino at third? Both rate out extremely well in terms of their defensive abilities. Do you see a bigger platoon between Eaton and TNT? Do you take all this money coming off the books in the next couple seasons and go after a big fish like Heyward? He immediately makes this team much better defensively.

White Sox starting pitchers have a 4.23 ERA and a 3.67 FIP, no other rotation has such a huge difference. The interesting thing to note is the A's are actually outperforming their FIP (3.24 ERA, 3.65 FIP), yet their defense is ranked 28th and not too far ahead of ours. I have a potential theory to explain some of that difference. The A's poor defense has mostly come from the infield, while their outfield defense is just a tad below average. Meanwhile, our outfield defense has been completely dreadful, while our infield defense hasn't been nearly as bad. When your infielders have poor range, you'll give up some more extra-base hits, but a lot of the extra hits will just be singles. However, a poor defensive outfield means almost every extra hit you're giving up is going for extra bases. Interestingly, our relievers have outperformed their FIP (3.35 ERA, 3.73 FIP). However, this can probably partially be explained by all the groundball pitchers we have in the pen who are causing hitters to hit balls to our strong(er) defenders. However, our rotation gives up a significantly higher percentage of flyballs than our bullpen does, and they're getting burned by our horrific outfield defense. A guy like Heyward would alleviate this problem considerably.

Edited September 1, 2015 by OmarComing25

[LittleHurt05]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb...oles-blue-jays/

 

White Sox fans entered this season with high hopes. GM Rick Hahn’s offseason shopping spree had brought Melky Cabrera, Adam LaRoche, David Robertson, and Zach Duke into the fold, upgrading several key areas of need.

 

But based on previous performance, the biggest acquisition of the winter was bringing Jeff Samardzija over from the A’s. By dealing for a pitcher coming off a season in which he’d fired 219.2 innings, struck out nearly five times as many batters as he’d walked, and flashed a 2.99 ERA, the White Sox could add a top-flight veteran righty to a rotation already set to feature lefties Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, and, eventually, rookie Carlos Rodon. Adding Samardzija to the rotation and Robertson and Duke to the back of the bullpen figured to greatly improve a pitching staff that finished next to last in the American League in park-adjusted ERA last season.

 

Ultimately, however, Chicago’s playoff hopes proved premature due largely to the worst collection of position players in the league: The White Sox’s offense has been worse than any other AL team’s, while only Detroit has been worse on the basepaths. But one of the team’s most insidious problems this year was also a major issue in 2014: terrible defense. The White Sox ranked 12th in the AL last year in Defensive Runs Saved, and they’re last this year. When trying to decode why Samardzija has been a rare disappointment on an otherwise improved pitching staff, and why the Sox have been so bad on the road, that leaky defense explains a lot.

 

On Saturday, the Mariners’ middle-of-the-road offense strafed Samardzija for five runs on eight hits and three walks in 5.2 innings. That raised the right-hander’s ERA to 4.85, much higher than his 4.06 FIP. In fact, only two other AL starting pitchers have shown a bigger split between earned runs allowed and fielding-independent numbers … and one of those is the Shark’s teammate, Sale.

 

When White Sox pitchers allow balls in play, the fielders behind them don’t catch the ball nearly as often as they should. In fact, they’ve done so just 68.5 percent of the time this year, better than only the awful Phillies and Rockies. And things have been even worse on the road: The Sox have allowed 4.6 runs per game away from U.S. Cellular Field compared to a shade under 4.0 at home, and they’ve produced by far the biggest gap between ERA and FIP among AL teams during road games. So while they certainly haven’t been a great team at home, going just 33-32, they’ve been a fair bit worse on the road, at just 28-36.

 

In Samardzija’s case, the net effect is a pitcher with the sixth-worst ERA in the AL (including a brutal 4.98 mark on the road) who’s suffered from the twin pains of that bad White Sox defense and regression in areas that he can control: His strikeout rate and swing-and-miss rate are both at their lowest point since Samardzija became a full-time major league starter, with a lot fewer missed bats on the road than at home. With free agency looming at season’s end, few other walk-year players not named Ian Desmond would’ve been better off signing an extension before Opening Day.

 

Whether or not the Sox opt to re-sign Shark, this season will have produced a valuable lesson for Hahn to remember when he goes shopping again: Patching some holes is great, but no team can win with half a lineup and a miserable defense — especially in games where a club can’t fall back on home-field advantage to help the cause. Build a deeper roster and things will improve, no matter where the Sox’s travels take them.

 

The good news on that front? The wheels are already in motion.

[Dunt]

White Sox starting pitchers have a 4.23 ERA and a 3.67 FIP, no other rotation has such a huge difference. The interesting thing to note is the A's are actually outperforming their FIP (3.24 ERA, 3.65 FIP), yet their defense is ranked 28th and not too far ahead of ours. I have a potential theory to explain some of that difference. The A's poor defense has mostly come from the infield, while their outfield defense is just a tad below average. Meanwhile, our outfield defense has been completely dreadful, while our infield defense hasn't been nearly as bad. When your infielders have poor range, you'll give up some more extra-base hits, but a lot of the extra hits will just be singles. However, a poor defensive outfield means almost every extra hit you're giving up is going for extra bases. Interestingly, our relievers have outperformed their FIP (3.35 ERA, 3.73 FIP). However, this can probably partially be explained by all the groundball pitchers we have in the pen who are causing hitters to hit balls to our strong(er) defenders. However, our rotation gives up a significantly higher percentage of flyballs than our bullpen does, and they're getting burned by our horrific outfield defense. A guy like Heyward would alleviate this problem considerably.

 

Solid post. I think you are on to something there.

[Lip Man 1]

If you have players that reached the major leagues but have no clue when it comes to fundamentals, you have problems other than your major league staff. A major league baseball player on day 1 should understand how the game is played.

 

Given how players are rushed to the big leagues today (the days when guys like Gary Peters and Joe Horlen spent five years in the minors learning their craft are long gone) maybe it would be to the Sox benefit to actually work with players every day no?

 

ESPECIALLY if other teams aren't doing it.

 

Makes you wonder if the coaches feel they shouldn't have to do it, what exactly do they do and what are they getting paid for.

 

And don't overlook the impact a coaching staff can have, I refer back to this quote from Tony LaRussa when I interviewed him. He was talking about when he first came on-board and the Sox started to develop in the early 1980's:

 

"For a long time coaches were just friends of the manager or guys getting their time in to get a pension. But jerry Reinsdorf recognized that because kids were being pushed to the major leagues earlier, the role of coaches as teachers became crucial. He embraced the idea of putting together the best coaching staff you possibly could, that the staff of a manager should be a force for developing players..."

 

Note the last part of Tony's comment.

 

This team has been putrid fundamentally and baseball stupid overall for the past five years or so. Some of that falls on the players, some on the manager and the coaches. This team was also totally unprepared for this year coming out of spring training. They were on a record pace in terms of poor defense and base running according to Fan Graphs.

 

Again some of that falls on the players but in this particular case the majority of the blame goes to the manager and his coaches in my opinion.

 

Mark

Edited September 1, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[Dick Allen]

Given how players are rushed to the big leagues today (the days when guys like Gary Peters and Joe Horlen spent five years in the minors learning their craft are long gone) maybe it would be to the Sox benefit to actually work with players every day no?

 

ESPECIALLY if other teams aren't doing it.

 

Makes you wonder if the coaches feel they shouldn't have to do it, what exactly do they do and what are they getting paid for.

 

And don't overlook the impact a coaching staff can have, I refer back to this quote from Tony LaRussa when I interviewed him. He was talking about when he first came on-board and the Sox started to develop in the early 1980's:

 

"For a long time coaches were just friends of the manager or guys getting their time in to get a pension. But jerry Reinsdorf recognized that because kids were being pushed to the major leagues earlier, the role of coaches as teachers became crucial. He embraced the idea of putting together the best coaching staff you possibly could, that the staff of a manager should be a force for developing players..."

 

Note the last part of Tony's comment.

 

This team has been putrid fundamentally and baseball stupid overall for the past five years or so. Some of that falls on the players, some on the manager and the coaches. This team was also totally unprepared for this year coming out of spring training. They were on a record pace in terms of poor defense and base running according to Fan Graphs.

 

Again some of that falls on the players but in this particular case the majority of the blame goes to the manager and his coaches in my opinion.

 

Mark

 

Actually, the guys who were pushed are probably Micah, Ventura worked with him every day, Sanchez, he seems to have a clue, who else? It was pretty much a veteran team, yet clueless, so take the easy way, blame Robin. They worked on all the drills in spring training over and over again. For some reason when the bell rung things changed. It happens. Look at Geo Soto. Watch him get loose in LF before a start. Watch him warm up a pitcher in between innings in a game he is not playing. The yips aren't there. He is normal. Sometimes the practice field doesn't translate to the regular game, but they did start out the season with Micah and Conor who are bad defensively. Alexei and Eaton started out bad defensively, and Avi is bad defensively. I know Melky is supposedly bad, but to me he has made too many plays and throws to call bad. The defense killed them, and they couldn't score runs to save their lives.

 

[harfman77]

In all fairness, Epstein originally drafted Rizzo. He just found a way to get him back via trade once he took over the Cubs.

 

By hiring the guy that traded Rizzo to him.

[Lip Man 1]

By hiring the guy that traded Rizzo to him.

 

All's fair in love and war. If this was a quid pro quo deal more power to Epstein. Wish the Sox were smart enough to do something like that.

 

Mark

 

[southsider2k5]

All's fair in love and war. If this was a quid pro quo deal more power to Epstein. Wish the Sox were smart enough to do something like that.

 

Mark

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather the Sox not break laws and rules. The Wilder fiasco was enough for me. I can't believe anyone would seriously endorse that sort of thing.

 

[LDF]

I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather the Sox not break laws and rules. The Wilder fiasco was enough for me. I can't believe anyone would seriously endorse that sort of thing.

 

in ref to personnel moves like that.... i agree and for the same reasons.

 

however i think those are the same reasons why the sox won't break the int'l signing limit as other teams have.

[Saufley]

Given how players are rushed to the big leagues today (the days when guys like Gary Peters and Joe Horlen spent five years in the minors learning their craft are long gone) maybe it would be to the Sox benefit to actually work with players every day no?

 

ESPECIALLY if other teams aren't doing it.

 

Makes you wonder if the coaches feel they shouldn't have to do it, what exactly do they do and what are they getting paid for.

 

And don't overlook the impact a coaching staff can have, I refer back to this quote from Tony LaRussa when I interviewed him. He was talking about when he first came on-board and the Sox started to develop in the early 1980's:

 

"For a long time coaches were just friends of the manager or guys getting their time in to get a pension. But jerry Reinsdorf recognized that because kids were being pushed to the major leagues earlier, the role of coaches as teachers became crucial. He embraced the idea of putting together the best coaching staff you possibly could, that the staff of a manager should be a force for developing players..."

 

Note the last part of Tony's comment.

 

This team has been putrid fundamentally and baseball stupid overall for the past five years or so. Some of that falls on the players, some on the manager and the coaches. This team was also totally unprepared for this year coming out of spring training. They were on a record pace in terms of poor defense and base running according to Fan Graphs.

 

Again some of that falls on the players but in this particular case the majority of the blame goes to the manager and his coaches in my opinion.

 

Mark

 

Very well said, Mark!! Too bad management couldn't read some of these posts.

 

[LDF]

Given how players are rushed to the big leagues today (the days when guys like Gary Peters and Joe Horlen spent five years in the minors learning their craft are long gone) maybe it would be to the Sox benefit to actually work with players every day no?

 

ESPECIALLY if other teams aren't doing it.

 

Makes you wonder if the coaches feel they shouldn't have to do it, what exactly do they do and what are they getting paid for.

 

And don't overlook the impact a coaching staff can have, I refer back to this quote from Tony LaRussa when I interviewed him. He was talking about when he first came on-board and the Sox started to develop in the early 1980's:

 

"For a long time coaches were just friends of the manager or guys getting their time in to get a pension. But jerry Reinsdorf recognized that because kids were being pushed to the major leagues earlier, the role of coaches as teachers became crucial. He embraced the idea of putting together the best coaching staff you possibly could, that the staff of a manager should be a force for developing players..."

 

Note the last part of Tony's comment.

 

This team has been putrid fundamentally and baseball stupid overall for the past five years or so. Some of that falls on the players, some on the manager and the coaches. This team was also totally unprepared for this year coming out of spring training. They were on a record pace in terms of poor defense and base running according to Fan Graphs.

 

Again some of that falls on the players but in this particular case the majority of the blame goes to the manager and his coaches in my opinion.

 

Mark

 

excellent post.

 

ref the bold, if you didn't tell us the background, i would have sworn that was made on this team, this yr.