Hahn Speaks

[tpezz27]

Out of the 86 qualified pitchers who have thrown enough innings, Quintana is 61st in whip, and 85th out of 86 in hits allowed. Only Samardzija has allowed more hits then him....I just don't see him being anywhere near "ace" material, aces just don't get hit that hard. And comparing his value to Sale's is laughable.

[SCCWS]

I still adhere to the notion that teams win with pitching first and then defense and then a good offense. Get all three together and you have champions. Don't trade away a Cy Young type pitcher for three prospects, who you don't know will perform. I think we saw the preferred route in building a team and that's free agency (Cabrerea, Laroche and Robertson), or a swap of mid level talent for youth (Garcia for Peavy, A Reed for Davidson).

 

There really is no one preferred route. I agree you don't want to trade a Cy Young pitcher for 3 prospects but you might for 3 solid ML players. Include in FA that the Red Sox got Ramirez and Sandoval and their GM lost his job for it. Ad to our FA Duke, Boni and Beckham and it is not preferred either. If we look at the mid level swap, we probably could have done better. We know we could w Avi instead of Iglesias. The preferred route is to use trades, FA and your system to build a team. This winter Hahn will get a chance to make trades and sign FA's that will hopefully improve this team. If it takes trading a stud starting pitcher so be it. The pressure is on him to get a return that betters the team while probably lessening the pitching strength

Edited September 3, 2015 by SCCWS

[Julius]

So the Hahn thread turns into an Attendance thread....love it! I'm a sucker for it

 

'83-'84 attendance was due to playoffs

 

early 90's attendance was due to a new stadium

 

2006 - coming off a world series

 

The sox aren't getting a new stadium and the sox are not going to the playoffs anytime soon. Front office/scouting are woefully inept and are incapable of finding 24 guys to complement Sale. Sale will never pitch in a playoff game for the white sox.

 

Season ticket base will be at its 10K base and overall attendance will hover around 19K - 22K, which is good for being above the Indians, Rays and A's for MLB Attendance Standings, which is what we are all obsessed about (even though we deny it...)

 

 

Well this rebuild while contending philosophy has led to a losing season (counting this year) in six of the past nine seasons, no consecutive winning seasons since 2003-2006, no playoffs (in an era of parity) since 2008, the lowest watched MLB franchise according to Fan Graphs and attendance that's generally ranked towards the bottom of MLB and that lost fans from the previous season for eight straight seasons.

 

I submit that philosophy isn't working based on the historical facts.

 

"It's Time" (sorry LOL) for a change in that philosophy and if that means a total complete rebuild...so be it.

 

How much worse could it get if they did that given the facts I just presented?

 

The REAL issue though is the same people who put this franchise in the position it's in and going to be charged with fixing it.

 

Personally I don't think they can.

 

Mark

 

[Jose Abreu]

Out of the 86 qualified pitchers who have thrown enough innings, Quintana is 61st in whip, and 85th out of 86 in hits allowed. Only Samardzija has allowed more hits then him....I just don't see him being anywhere near "ace" material, aces just don't get hit that hard. And comparing his value to Sale's is laughable.

Quintana has an extremely unlucky BABIP against and is surrendering weaker contract than ever. His hits allowed stat is an anomaly.

[OmarComing25]

Out of the 86 qualified pitchers who have thrown enough innings, Quintana is 61st in whip, and 85th out of 86 in hits allowed. Only Samardzija has allowed more hits then him....I just don't see him being anywhere near "ace" material, aces just don't get hit that hard. And comparing his value to Sale's is laughable.

He's 17th among pitchers in fWAR this year, and 12th since the start of 2013. His BABIP this season is .343, second highest in baseball. He's been pretty unlucky there. If you don't like FIP then he's 25th in SIERA, which takes into account batted ball data. If you look at his batted ball profile, he's giving up the weakest contact of his career. His value is a lot closer to Sale's than you think.

Edited September 3, 2015 by OmarComing25

[Lip Man 1]

So the Hahn thread turns into an Attendance thread....love it! I'm a sucker for it

 

'83-'84 attendance was due to playoffs

 

early 90's attendance was due to a new stadium

 

2006 - coming off a world series

 

The sox aren't getting a new stadium and the sox are not going to the playoffs anytime soon. Front office/scouting are woefully inept and are incapable of finding 24 guys to complement Sale. Sale will never pitch in a playoff game for the white sox.

 

Season ticket base will be at its 10K base and overall attendance will hover around 19K - 22K, which is good for being above the Indians, Rays and A's for MLB Attendance Standings, which is what we are all obsessed about (even though we deny it...)

 

Again the original statement was Sox fans don't support the franchise. The facts say that is incorrect. All of a sudden conditions and reasons are being listed for doing so, basically making exceptions.

 

That doesn't hold water. If fans didn't support the franchise they would come out under ANY conditions and that's simply not true.

 

I'll go so far as to say Sox fans have been pretty good at supporting this franchise given the generally bad baseball they've seen for decades. I mean five postseason spots in 35 years? The Sox being the only one of the original 16 pre expansion MLB franchises to have never made the postseason in consecutive years??

 

Given those facts the Sox should be grateful they are even getting the numbers they have been.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mark

 

[southsider2k5]

Again the original statement was Sox fans don't support the franchise. The facts say that is incorrect. All of a sudden conditions and reasons are being listed for doing so, basically making exceptions.

 

That doesn't hold water. If fans didn't support the franchise they would come out under ANY conditions and that's simply not true.

 

I'll go so far as to say Sox fans have been pretty good at supporting this franchise given the generally bad baseball they've seen for decades. I mean five postseason spots in 35 years? The Sox being the only one of the original 16 pre expansion MLB franchises to have never made the postseason in consecutive years??

 

Given those facts the Sox should be grateful they are even getting the numbers they have been.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mark

 

Good to know that people agree with me on us having a largely bandwagon fan base.

 

[flavum]

Good to know that people agree with me on us having a largely bandwagon fan base.

 

You don't know the definition of bandwagon.

[southsider2k5]

You don't know the definition of bandwagon.

 

Even the fans will tell you they will only show up after years of sustained playoff appearances. Realistically the fans showed up after a World Series win, and a large portion haven't been back since. If that isn't bandwagon, I don't know what is.

[LDF]

Again the original statement was Sox fans don't support the franchise. The facts say that is incorrect. All of a sudden conditions and reasons are being listed for doing so, basically making exceptions.

 

That doesn't hold water. If fans didn't support the franchise they would come out under ANY conditions and that's simply not true.

 

I'll go so far as to say Sox fans have been pretty good at supporting this franchise given the generally bad baseball they've seen for decades. I mean five postseason spots in 35 years? The Sox being the only one of the original 16 pre expansion MLB franchises to have never made the postseason in consecutive years??

 

Given those facts the Sox should be grateful they are even getting the numbers they have been.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mark

 

a good analysis . i will go further and add this.

 

the sox haven't won a world series until 2005. before that, the sox were winning. now the word is perception.... as long as the fans perceive that the owners are trying to put a winning team on the field, i will say that the fans will come out.

 

now another word to consider is attendance. the attendance perception of not having a game being sold out.... for every game in the season, that is not going to happen.

 

so the whole thing is really how people want to look at and what they are expecting.

 

but the park will be less filled if the owners and FO didn't put out a team of players who can compete.

[LDF]

Sox fans don't support the team at all, rebuild or not.

 

you really need to define this a little more.

 

my defense will be.... look at forbes article on the sox and the profit and expense.

 

the bottom line there says that the org has been making money regularly.....

[LDF]

Quintana has an extremely unlucky BABIP against and is surrendering weaker contract than ever. His hits allowed stat is an anomaly.

 

for me, i always thought of the person who is stating that Q is a #1 or ace, well as being a hard core fan.

 

i have no problem saying that Q is a weak #2 solid #3.

 

now if he a better offense or team.... that may move him to a solid #2.

[OmarComing25]

for me, i always thought of the person who is stating that Q is a #1 or ace, well as being a hard core fan.

 

i have no problem saying that Q is a weak #2 solid #3.

 

now if he a better offense or team.... that may move him to a solid #2.

Quintana is at worst a very good #2. You don't judge pitchers on the quality of the team around them, especially the offense.

[RegionSox]

for me, i always thought of the person who is stating that Q is a #1 or ace, well as being a hard core fan.

 

i have no problem saying that Q is a weak #2 solid #3.

 

now if he a better offense or team.... that may move him to a solid #2.

I can't see how a better offense would change how well he pitches, unless you are looking at something like Wins. That's a pretty bad way to judge the pitcher though.

[coco1997]

I can't see how a better offense would change how well he pitches, unless you are looking at something like Wins. That's a pretty bad way to judge the pitcher though.

 

How about the defense behind him?

[LDF]

I can't see how a better offense would change how well he pitches, unless you are looking at something like Wins. That's a pretty bad way to judge the pitcher though.

 

i have a feeling when people judge pitchers, they also look at the win / lost bracket as well. they can't help it. how do you really judge a pitcher, esp if their stuff is really good ......... but how he performs in a game and how the opposing hitters react this his pitches.

 

[Thad Bosley]

Even the fans will tell you they will only show up after years of sustained playoff appearances. Realistically the fans showed up after a World Series win, and a large portion haven't been back since. If that isn't bandwagon, I don't know what is.

You continue to focus on a symptom of the attendance problem, this mega obsession of your's with the bandwagon fan base business, rather than the root cause: LACK OF WINNING. You talk about how the fans haven't been back since shortly after the World Series. Have you seen the team's record these past ten years since? What in the world do you expect!

 

Seriously, your condemnation is so misplaced, always, ALWAYS blaming the fans. Bandwagon this, meatball fan that. It's ludicrous! Your focal point should be where it is with most of the other astute posters on this board, which is on the continued failures of the team's owners and management team. For some reason you never raise a critical word towards them. Care to explain why?

[Soxfest]

Even the fans will tell you they will only show up after years of sustained playoff appearances. Realistically the fans showed up after a World Series win, and a large portion haven't been back since. If that isn't bandwagon, I don't know what is.

Yep, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

[LDF]

Yep, but don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

 

 

rant ... rant, who said rant.

 

i love a good rant... esp when i am doing it. but man, i make so many enemies. i wonder why???

[southsider2k5]

You continue to focus on a symptom of the attendance problem, this mega obsession of your's with the bandwagon fan base business, rather than the root cause: LACK OF WINNING. You talk about how the fans haven't been back since shortly after the World Series. Have you seen the team's record these past ten years since? What in the world do you expect!

 

Seriously, your condemnation is so misplaced, always, ALWAYS blaming the fans. Bandwagon this, meatball fan that. It's ludicrous! Your focal point should be where it is with most of the other astute posters on this board, which is on the continued failures of the team's owners and management team. For some reason you never raise a critical word towards them. Care to explain why?

 

Even in a post like this, you manage to again to clearly note that we have a bandwagon fan base. It is a fact of Soxdom. I don't know why everyone is so offended by this, as if it weren't true or something. You can make whatever excuses you want, and justify it however you want, but the numbers are what the numbers are. I don't feel that is is particularly "astute" to pretend that reality doesn't exist.

 

If I didn't read the perpetual complaining about pretty much everything post after post after post about it, there wouldn't be anything to respond to. In fact I honestly can't comprehend how so many people can take so much of a negative experience from this franchise, yet keep coming back to complain about it. If things are really that bad, why in the world are you still wasting time on it? If this has really let you down for 49 of the past 50 years, and you STILL come back for more, the problem lies much deeper than a franchise's overall success rate. Afterall you know what the definition of insanity is...

 

 

[OmarComing25]

Even in a post like this, you manage to again to clearly note that we have a bandwagon fan base. It is a fact of Soxdom. I don't know why everyone is so offended by this, as if it weren't true or something. You can make whatever excuses you want, and justify it however you want, but the numbers are what the numbers are. I don't feel that is is particularly "astute" to pretend that reality doesn't exist.

 

If I didn't read the perpetual complaining about pretty much everything post after post after post about it, there wouldn't be anything to respond to. In fact I honestly can't comprehend how so many people can take so much of a negative experience from this franchise, yet keep coming back to complain about it. If things are really that bad, why in the world are you still wasting time on it? If this has really let you down for 49 of the past 50 years, and you STILL come back for more, the problem lies much deeper than a franchise's overall success rate. Afterall you know what the definition of insanity is...

Agreed, there's a contingent of Sox fans that are always miserable and you wonder why they haven't gone to another team already if they hate the franchise so much. I'm not happy with the current state either but I don't get the point of endlessly complaining.

 

Yeah we're a bandwagon fanbase but so are most fanbases so meh. We're hardly unique there.

Edited September 4, 2015 by OmarComing25

[chitownsportsfan]

huh, good thing they don't rank pitchers on "hits allowed", expecially when your defense is one of the most porous in the league. You guys really under rate Q. Sometimes I wonder if there isn't a little more to it than just he's not a sexy high K guy that throws 96. Sorry to imply like that but it does cross my mind.

[chitownsportsfan]

Agreed, there's a contingent of Sox fans that are always miserable and you wonder why they haven't gone to another team already if they hate the franchise so much. I'm not happy with the current state either but I don get the point of endlessly complaining.

 

Yeah we're a bandwagon fanbase but so are most fanbases so meh. We're hardly unique there.

 

What fanbase that hardly ever makes the playoffs and has 1 world title in 100 years isn't miserable? Ever visit a New York knicks board? Mariners? Come on, don't sell the fans s*** and call it gold. This franchise and this ownership group has not been good overall. 1 title in 100 years does not, and will not ever, negate that. Just on average you'd have expected 3 titles or more over a 100 years, and that's average.

Edited September 4, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[Hatchetman]

bandwagon, small market, whatever. win some f*&^ing games!

[kitekrazy]

Agreed, there's a contingent of Sox fans that are always miserable and you wonder why they haven't gone to another team already if they hate the franchise so much. I'm not happy with the current state either but I don't get the point of endlessly complaining.

 

Yeah we're a bandwagon fanbase but so are most fanbases so meh. We're hardly unique there.

 

I'm getting there. I don't see any hope under this ownership. Then if ownership ever changed they would probably keep the same people.