Samardzija/Cooper

Dick Allen · September 5, 2015

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2015 -> 09:51 AM)

So based on your strong endorsement of this pick you think that signing Robertson and Cabrera was a clear mistake right? Because the priority must be accumulating draft picks? Otherwise you're doing the same thing you accuse me of.

What I would say, and have said from the start, is that the draft pick is a poor exchange for a player. If you've got a guy already at AAA who looks to have a shot at the big leagues, reasonable age for that level, that's worth more to me than a sandwich pick. I'll take a first round pick over a generic AAA player unless they look really solid, but a sandwich pick is worth less than that. It shouldn't go into your calculation of "do we trade this group of players for a pitcher near free agency" because even if it works out it won't impact your roster for another year. It should barely register on your radar for making a deadline deal, because if you can't get better value than that at the deadline then the rest of the league wants nothing to do with that player.

It's nice, if you're accumulating a bunch of them it can help your roster in a few years, and it's the kind of thing you should try to accumulate more of if you're going through a 3-4 year rebuilding process. Somehow I don't think you're going to endorse doing that.

I don't know how you come up with that. If trading draft picks were allowed, I think a lot of people would trade a future 2nd, and future 3rd for Melky and Robertson. You are whining that what they could have received for Samardzija is light years ahead of a pick that is better than a 2nd or 3rd both in position and money it allows you to mess with. For ine thing, you would have to prove what was offered for Shark, which I have seen through the hundreds of posts b****ing about this, you have offered zero.

I don't like Samrdzija, and never did. But if the offer, again which you have never shown, doesn't blow a top 30-35 pick away, keeping him made a lot of sense unless .

Show us the offers, then keep complaining. You are basing your complaining on your imagination, not fact.

Balta1701 · September 5, 2015

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 5, 2015 -> 12:41 PM)

I don't know how you come up with that. If trading draft picks were allowed, I think a lot of people would trade a future 2nd, and future 3rd for Melky and Robertson. You are whining that what they could have received for Samardzija is light years ahead of a pick that is better than a 2nd or 3rd both in position and money it allows you to mess with. For ine thing, you would have to prove what was offered for Shark, which I have seen through the hundreds of posts b****ing about this, you have offered zero.

I don't like Samrdzija, and never did. But if the offer, again which you have never shown, doesn't blow a top 30-35 pick away, keeping him made a lot of sense unless .

Show us the offers, then keep complaining. You are basing your complaining on your imagination, not fact.

Rather than complete the impossible challenge which requires reading minds, I'm going to again turn it back your way. If the White Sox couldn't get value back for him at the deadline that was a lot better than a single sandwich pick, then the rest of the league was even more skeptical about him after his 1st half performance than I was, and back in June I was saying his dropping K-rate was a serious, "don't extend me!" red flag.

And as I quote above...I was ok with giving up a draft pick for Cabrera. My own words were that "I don't care nearly as much about the draft pick as I do about his terrible 2013 season". If he performed like a tolerable player then giving up the draft pick is nothing. It was the 3rd round, that's basically nothing. The worry was whether he'd be a tolerable player or whether his good seasons were something he couldn't repeat.

Dick Allen · September 5, 2015

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2015 -> 11:51 AM)

Rather than complete the impossible challenge which requires reading minds, I'm going to again turn it back your way. If the White Sox couldn't get value back for him at the deadline that was a lot better than a single sandwich pick, then the rest of the league was even more skeptical about him after his 1st half performance than I was, and back in June I was saying his dropping K-rate was a serious, "don't extend me!" red flag.

And as I quote above...I was ok with giving up a draft pick for Cabrera. My own words were that "I don't care nearly as much about the draft pick as I do about his terrible 2013 season". If he performed like a tolerable player then giving up the draft pick is nothing. It was the 3rd round, that's basically nothing. The worry was whether he'd be a tolerable player or whether his good seasons were something he couldn't repeat.

You have mentioned losing draft picks have you not? To fully whine like you whine you sometimes have to move goalposts.

There are teams out there that aren't going to have to give up a 1st round pick for him. His serious drop in k's is 1 k from his rate with the A's, and 1.1 from his career rate. I thin k he sucks, biput so,eome will sign him. We do know that whoever they draft will suck because you said so. The fact is Semien has pretty much sucked since after a hot start. Phegley hasn't been so mich better than Soto. Bassitt has been oretty good, but is probably a reliever on the Sox. Ravelo, you got me. A future HOFer for sure. If only 1st round picks matter, then why was dumping any of them so dumb?

It is funny, you say the Sox can't develop a non pitcher, yet b**** and moan about Semien, Phegley, and Ravelo. The good news is as great as Phegley now supposedly is, he was picked 38th overall by the idiot White Sox. So the same idiots should be able to do just as well pickimg around the same placc or higher.

Keep whining.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Dick Allen

Balta1701 · September 5, 2015

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 5, 2015 -> 01:25 PM)

You have mentioned losing draft picks have you not? To fully whine like you whine you sometimes have to move goalposts.

Basically, as I just showed by quoting 10 of my own posts, I don't mind losing 2nd and 3rd round picks. I specifically said in one of those quoted posts I don't mind giving up the draft pick for Melky, I'm much more concerned about whether he actually can hit based on his weak performance in 2013. In other posts I said specifically I'd much rather give up a draft pick for Shields than trade multiple pieces for Samardzija. I don't think picks after the first round are worth nearly as much as people think. I will whine if we give up the 11th pick in the draft this year for a free agent, but that's because it's a first round pick and that's a huge difference from the comp round. So no, you're putting words in my mouth and then accusing me of moving the goalposts based on your words.

Dick Allen · September 5, 2015

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2015 -> 12:44 PM)

Basically, as I just showed by quoting 10 of my own posts, I don't mind losing 2nd and 3rd round picks. I specifically said in one of those quoted posts I don't mind giving up the draft pick for Melky, I'm much more concerned about whether he actually can hit based on his weak performance in 2013. In other posts I said specifically I'd much rather give up a draft pick for Shields than trade multiple pieces for Samardzija. I don't think picks after the first round are worth nearly as much as people think. I will whine if we give up the 11th pick in the draft this year for a free agent, but that's because it's a first round pick and that's a huge difference from the comp round. So no, you're putting words in my mouth and then accusing me of moving the goalposts based on your words.

Semin, Bassitt, Phegley, and Ravelo each were selected below where the Sox will be selecting with the comp pick. It sure seems like guys who in your own mind, aren't worh nearly as much as people think, you are giving superior value.

You need to attend your own Baseball 101 lectures.

Balta1701 · September 5, 2015

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 5, 2015 -> 02:05 PM)

Semin, Bassitt, Phegley, and Ravelo each were selected below where the Sox will be selecting with the comp pick. It sure seems like guys who in your own mind, aren't worh nearly as much as people think, you are giving superior value.

You need to attend your own Baseball 101 lectures.

If you buy 50 scratch off lottery tickets, you are likely to succeed and get money back on >10 of them. The existence of these successful lottery tickets does not mean that putting all your retirement savings in lottery tickets is likely to be a successful strategy.

However, if you could find a way to examine the lottery tickets in advance of purchase to improve your chances and exclude a large fraction of ones that are known to be worthless, you have weighted the odds very much in your favor.

The Ginger Kid · September 5, 2015

This discussion = awesome

LDF · September 5, 2015

i still say, offer shark a QO..... the gamble in that move will be a good one.

if he accept it to rebuild his value, the sox can reap the reward for that move.

LDF · September 5, 2015

QUOTE (The Ginger Kid @ Sep 5, 2015 -> 07:25 PM)

This discussion = awesome

yeah you have great poster who are very knowledgeable debating pov's.

Whisox05 · September 5, 2015

I don't know of the whole cooper/shark is a issue. Only place I've heard it is from this post and that coming from Dave's Kaplan of all people I take with a grain of salt. Kaplan is a pompous a** and huge cubs homer so I couldn't take anything he says about the sox being legit. That's my take lol

LDF · September 5, 2015

QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Sep 5, 2015 -> 07:31 PM)

I don't know of the whole cooper/shark is a issue. Only place I've heard it is from this post and that coming from Dave's Kaplan of all people I take with a grain of salt. Kaplan is a pompous a** and huge cubs homer so I couldn't take anything he says about the sox being legit. That's my take lol

and you got a great point. this was mention before and i agree. but still it does brings up a interesting point.

now i been meaning to ask, does it really matter internally if a pitcher whose has success in the past, really need to get along with the pitching coach.

Lip Man 1 · September 6, 2015

It does if the toxic relationship is putting more pressure on said pitcher and causing issues.

Remember Cory Snyder? Good power hitter in Cleveland. Didn't get along with Walt Hriniak who tried to change his approach. Said result, Snyder only lasted a half season with the Sox in 1992.

Mark

LDF · September 6, 2015

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Sep 6, 2015 -> 06:58 AM)

It does if the toxic relationship is putting more pressure on said pitcher and causing issues.

Remember Cory Snyder? Good power hitter in Cleveland. Didn't get along with Walt Hriniak who tried to change his approach. Said result, Snyder only lasted a half season with the Sox in 1992.

Mark

and while you do have a great point....

it is still up to the pitcher to believe that the help well actually be of benefit. if not, i don't see why anything has to be forced on the player.

i would tell coop, don't offer any help .... let him come to you and don't be condescending if he does and act professional

again, it is up to the player if he needs help.

ewokpelts · September 7, 2015