If the Sox arent in the top 10, how do you improve this offseason?

[bmags]

Yes, once it all cane together......10 years ago.

 

What's sad to me is Minnesota last made the playoffs in 2010, conpletely dismantled their team, and in five years now are in a position to be in the playoffs. We've been trying to compete about every season since 2009, and are no better for it.

 

Yes. It's really depressing to look back at the "compete" years and realize how long it's been.

[OmarComing25]

I would argue this team has spent the last 10 seasons doing very much the opposite of what helped assemble that team in 2005. They were built through trades, drafting, and free agency...and in virtually every case the White Sox acquired someone who was undervalued. There was almost no one on that roster that they paid full price to acquire in either trade or free agency. Contrast that with what we did last offseason as an example, where we paid high prices for free agents to outbid people rather than looking for value additions and you might have a formula for why we've struggled to replicate that season.

Outside of last offseason and Dunn, when did we pay full price in free agency in the last decade? I'm not seeing the trend here.

[MEANS]

Can every thread not turn into complaining about Jerry Reinsdorf? Even a completely unrelated thread about Sale and the strikeout thread has to turn into that. It gets old and ruins any discussion.

 

Can every thread not turn into you complaining about people complaining about Jerry Reinsdorf?

[SCCWS]

I thought Hahn did a pretty good job last off season as did most others. It seems though we have more holes to fill than we had previously. Our bullpen is much better than it was, so we have that but I'll take that with a grain of salt. Relief pitchers are often to hard to predict. The one thing I don't think Hahn even gave a thought to was defense. My favorite saying is "Pitching, defense and the three run home-run". We've got pitching but defense is about the worst in all of baseball an only 1 guy who can hit homers with any consistency, an thats not saying anything about the 2 guys on base needed to make it a 3 run homer.

Steve Adams was asked what the biggest needs were for the Sox this winter, his response was as many have said "Add a real catcher and figure out second/third base. Improve the terrible defense. I'll admit I got a chuckle out of get a REAL catcher.

How we improve without a top ten pick should be the same as how we improve with one. Many have said "dump the whole team and start from scratch", while I might agree, I don't see them doing that. Which leaves us patching holes via trades and a couple FA signings. I'm sure Hahn knows as well as we do what is needed. I do enjoy playing GM but at this point I'm stumped. Unless we trade from our strength..pitching, I fear we'll continue to be a bad team. I think we need to start with defense an go from there.

 

I think offense is the top priority. The defense has been much better w the addition of S&S in the infield. In fact, I think Alexei has played better defense sine they arrived as well. But the problem is S&S are poor offensively. So I think they leave Sanchez where he is and go out and get some offense on 3rd. They also need to add an OF bat who can also field. I would think Q could bring back a quality 3B and OF in a trade.

 

[Dick Allen]

Outside of last offseason and Dunn, when did we pay full price in free agency in the last decade? I'm not seeing the trend here.

Yes, and when talking 2005, Garcia was full price. Scotty Pods was as well. They got Iguchi cheap but were the high bidders. Hawk talked them into AJ. Dye was a rehab project.

 

It all depends on your budget. Andrew Friedman operates the Dodgers a lot differently than he operated TB. And we all know if it was clear the Sox were pocketing money like Loria because they didn't want to pay full price, that would be just as criticized.

 

 

[Lip Man 1]

Can every thread not turn into complaining about Jerry Reinsdorf? Even a completely unrelated thread about Sale and the strikeout thread has to turn into that. It gets old and ruins any discussion.

 

Sorry my post offended you. JR was not mentioned at all in it, nor was it my intention to include him in the discussion. I was referring more towards Kenny Williams and Buddy Bell myself. Since you brought it up however he certainly is a factor in this decline which assuming the Sox go on to have a losing season again you have to go all the way back to the time period from 1968-1976 to find such a sustained stretch of bad baseball.

 

At least in that time period the Sox 'excuse' was they didn't have any money...I can't find an excuse for this past nine years period that's comparable especially in this era of parity.

 

Mark

 

[Dick Allen]

Sorry my post offended you. JR was not mentioned at all in it, nor was it my intention to include him in the discussion. I was referring more towards Kenny Williams and Buddy Bell myself. Since you brought it up however he certainly is a factor in this decline which assuming the Sox go on to have a losing season again you have to go all the way back to the time period from 1968-1976 to find such a sustained stretch of bad baseball.

 

At least in that time period the Sox 'excuse' was they didn't have any money...I can't find an excuse for this past nine years period that's comparable especially in this era of parity.

 

Mark

What about 84-89? Roland Hemond left the team so barren, even drafting perfectly after he was fired, it was another 10 years until playoff baseball.

 

Why am I not surprised you missed that.?KW>RH.

[Eminor3rd]

On paper the moves the Sox made were well regarded by baseball people (not just fans) across the board.

 

SOMETHING happens when those guys put on the uniform however and this has been happening for years...you can go all the way back to David Wells.

 

There is something about the front office / culture of the franchise that is at least in some way responsible for this happening.

 

Until that changes, until new people are brought in to the front office and individuals are held accountable for results by their jobs being on the line, you are going to see more of this stuff happening.

 

The Sox have a historical baseline long enough now to tell me it's chronic under the individuals responsible for running the franchise.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Mark

 

I would disagree that everyone thought the moves were good -- there were a lot of writers on the sabermetric side that saw it as lipstick on a pig, that the product still wasn't good enough to justify the investment.

 

What I think we need to avoid, as fans, is the trap that what happened was what was ALWAYS going to happen -- the idea that a perfect plan equals perfect results. If you played this season out again, it wouldn't end the same way. It's possible to have a team that is perfectly capable of winning, but just doesn't. MOST teams fail. If we think the FO needs to be axed after a few consecutive bad years, than we must think that half or more of all the FOs also need to be axed.

 

This is a game where it's really difficult to get to the top. Failing to do it doesn't necessarily mean you're on the wrong track. The Sox have had four of the 15 worst player performances in the majors this year by fWAR -- Adam LaRoche, Avisail Garcia, Alexei Ramirez, and Melky Cabrera. Had those four even turned in career average seasons, the Sox would most likely be a WC team. Of course things are going to go wrong, but was it not fair to project average performances for them? Was there a problem in the process there? Unless you think there were OBVIOUS signs of impending decline that the Sox missed, the answer is no. They were all coming of decent to good seasons. It just didn't work out; the players failed. On some level, it happens to every team except one every year.

[Eminor3rd]

I think offense is the top priority. The defense has been much better w the addition of S&S in the infield. In fact, I think Alexei has played better defense sine they arrived as well. But the problem is S&S are poor offensively. So I think they leave Sanchez where he is and go out and get some offense on 3rd. They also need to add an OF bat who can also field. I would think Q could bring back a quality 3B and OF in a trade.

 

I don't think it's one or the other specifically -- I think it's making sure every player is contributing to at least ONE. We have had entirely too many players that are negatives on BOTH sides of the ball this year.

[Balta1701]

I would disagree that everyone thought the moves were good -- there were a lot of writers on the sabermetric side that saw it as lipstick on a pig, that the product still wasn't good enough to justify the investment.

 

What I think we need to avoid, as fans, is the trap that what happened was what was ALWAYS going to happen -- the idea that a perfect plan equals perfect results. If you played this season out again, it wouldn't end the same way. It's possible to have a team that is perfectly capable of winning, but just doesn't. MOST teams fail. If we think the FO needs to be axed after a few consecutive bad years, than we must think that half or more of all the FOs also need to be axed.

 

This is a game where it's really difficult to get to the top. Failing to do it doesn't necessarily mean you're on the wrong track. The Sox have had four of the 15 worst player performances in the majors this year by fWAR -- Adam LaRoche, Avisail Garcia, Alexei Ramirez, and Melky Cabrera. Had those four even turned in career average seasons, the Sox would most likely be a WC team. Of course things are going to go wrong, but was it not fair to project average performances for them? Was there a problem in the process there? Unless you think there were OBVIOUS signs of impending decline that the Sox missed, the answer is no. They were all coming of decent to good seasons. It just didn't work out; the players failed. On some level, it happens to every team except one every year.

The counterpoint I've been making is...yes, you couldn't predict that the White Sox's signings were going to fail so specifically, but you could absolutely predict that some of them would. In the range of players the White Sox are in play for - guys who are *not* the top tier free agents but who are high priced, middle-tier guys, there is an extremely high failure rate. These are guys who virtually all teams have the money to sign well in advance and choose not to sign. If you are playing that part of the market, the risk of failure is much higher than we've been willing to admit and that is a fundamental flaw. If you are buying more than 1 guy in the free agent market, you have to expect that more than 1/2 the guys you sign will signifciantly underperform and >1/4 will be a complete and utter bust.

 

Furthermore, there were other obvious logical issues, you point out Avisail Garcia for example - can anyone truly be surprised that he wasn't an all star? There were glaring issues with him coming into the year, but people thought he had a decent chance of growing out of them. He didn't...but seriously how shocking is that? A 24 year old with flaws in his game fails to improve at them. Should that be the kind of thing that totally sabotages a season? If you're spending $50+ million in new money during an offseason and your plan relies on "my 24 year old RF who has been a negative player the last 2 years is going to take a huge step forwards", there is a solid likelihood that your plan has a fundamental flaw. What are you going to do if that happens?

 

And then of course that's still not even considering that although the White Sox were unlucky in some performances this year...they've been extremely, almost unbelievably lucky on health. They're generally a pretty healthy team but we haven't even gotten any freak injuries to our major players this year other than Chris Sale missing 1 start. No one broke a bone while being hit by a pitch. No one was knocked out after being spiked at 2b or 1b. No one was seriously injured by a bat or a ball. No outfield collisions. We've lost bullpen guys and a couple bench guys to the DL and that's it. The health of this team has been almost unbelievable. So while they've gotten unlucky on their player choices, imagine how bad this team could look if it had an "average" number of days lost to the DL? That could easily have offset several of these guys performing to the levels that they bet so heavily on.

 

This team was built on a platform of "completely misunderstanding risk". No depth, no expectation that some of the guys might underperform, no assessment of what would happen if some things did go wrong.

[Lip Man 1]

Logically thought out post and brings up some good points in my opinion.

 

Mark

 

 

[Lip Man 1]

It worked just fine in 2005.

 

Absolutely...and since then?

 

It's pretty clear 2005 was an outlier (as was 2008)

 

Rick Hahn himself said at his press conference the goal was to build "sustained success..." Now what that means is subject to interpretation but since the White Sox are the only one of the original 16 pre expansion MLB franchises to have never made the postseason in consecutive years, that would be a good place to start in my opinion regarding his comment.

 

How close are the Sox to making the playoffs in back to back years?

 

How close are they to even making the playoffs once?

 

Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the prosecution rests.

 

Mark

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Logically thought out post and brings up some good points in my opinion.

 

Mark

If Jeff Samardzija was Jake Arreitta, and Jake Areitta, Jeff Samardzija, Theo, who offered Shark $85 million, wouldn't be a genius, and Rick Hahn would be a boy wonder, and KW would have had nothing to do with the treade.

[bmags]

Post needs editing.

 

Anyway. My firm stance is goal #1 is to add dynamic, star talent to the field.

 

WHile we work to find goal #1, do not, do not sign average players to replace our below average players to contracts > 1 year. I do not want to have to think about "well how do we move melky?" anymore.

 

Take flyers, take lots of flyers.

 

OR

 

Try to build the best damn defensive team in the league. I actually have more hope in option 1 than two. But I know at this point that replacing our below average players with average ones will not get us to the playoffs.

[LDF]

Absolutely...and since then?

 

It's pretty clear 2005 was an outlier (as was 2008)

 

Rick Hahn himself said at his press conference the goal was to build "sustained success..." Now what that means is subject to interpretation but since the White Sox are the only one of the original 16 pre expansion MLB franchises to have never made the postseason in consecutive years, that would be a good place to start in my opinion regarding his comment.

 

How close are the Sox to making the playoffs in back to back years?

 

How close are they to even making the playoffs once?

 

how close are they to help make more money for the owners to be happy

 

Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the prosecution rests.

 

Mark

 

ref the bold.

[LDF]

Post needs editing.

 

Anyway. My firm stance is goal #1 is to add dynamic, star talent to the field.

 

WHile we work to find goal #1, do not, do not sign average players to replace our below average players to contracts > 1 year. I do not want to have to think about "well how do we move melky?" anymore.

 

Take flyers, take lots of flyers.

 

OR

 

Try to build the best damn defensive team in the league. I actually have more hope in option 1 than two. But I know at this point that replacing our below average players with average ones will not get us to the playoffs.

 

i would like to add another "OR"

OR

 

find a nice combo of players to fix the missing holes while at the same time getting other players via trade to

build up the farm as well. this will help get closer to the play off at least improve the overall record and aiming

for the playoff.

[OmarComing25]

Absolutely...and since then?

 

It's pretty clear 2005 was an outlier (as was 2008)

 

Rick Hahn himself said at his press conference the goal was to build "sustained success..." Now what that means is subject to interpretation but since the White Sox are the only one of the original 16 pre expansion MLB franchises to have never made the postseason in consecutive years, that would be a good place to start in my opinion regarding his comment.

 

How close are the Sox to making the playoffs in back to back years?

 

How close are they to even making the playoffs once?

 

Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the prosecution rests.

 

Mark

Why do 2005 and 2008 have to be outliers? They still won 90 games in 2006, and that was with every starting pitcher performing significantly worse than the year before. Hell if Buehrle just has his usual season we would have made the playoffs that year. 2003 and 2004 they weren't too far off either (83 wins with your two best hitters out the whole year isn't too shabby, who knows what would have happened if Frank and Maggs were healthy). We were also a couple small things going our way from making the playoffs in 2010 and 2012. It's not like we're the Marlins who lose 90+ games every season except for the two completely random seasons when everything came together. The last few seasons have been rough but from 2000-2012 the White Sox were usually in playoff contention. Things certainly haven't been great, but it hasn't been quite as bad as you're making it seem.

Edited September 24, 2015 by OmarComing25

[LDF]

Why do 2005 and 2008 have to be outliers? They still won 90 games in 2006, and that was with every starting pitcher performing significantly worse than the year before. Hell if Buehrle just has his usual season we would have made the playoffs that year. 2003 and 2004 they weren't too far off either (83 wins with your two best hitters out the whole year isn't too shabby, who knows what would have happened if Frank and Maggs were healthy). We were also a couple small things going our way from making the playoffs in 2010 and 2012. It's not like we're the Marlins who lose 90+ games every season except for the two completely random seasons when everything came together. The last few seasons have been rough but from 2000-2012 the White Sox were usually in playoff contention. Things certainly haven't been great, but it hasn't been quite as bad as you're making it seem.

 

hind sight.... hind sight.... hind sight.

 

it is easy to use hind sight. lets keep everything into perspective.

 

the beginning to fix this problem has to come from 100% commitment from the top the utter top of this org. once that is done, everything should fall into place.

[southsider2k5]

Why do 2005 and 2008 have to be outliers? They still won 90 games in 2006, and that was with every starting pitcher performing significantly worse than the year before. Hell if Buehrle just has his usual season we would have made the playoffs that year. 2003 and 2004 they weren't too far off either (83 wins with your two best hitters out the whole year isn't too shabby, who knows what would have happened if Frank and Maggs were healthy). We were also a couple small things going our way from making the playoffs in 2010 and 2012. It's not like we're the Marlins who lose 90+ games every season except for the two completely random seasons when everything came together. The last few seasons have been rough but from 2000-2012 the White Sox were usually in playoff contention. Things certainly haven't been great, but it hasn't been quite as bad as you're making it seem.

 

Under this playoff system, the Sox are the second wild card team in the playoffs in 2006.

[Dick Allen]

They need to get Swisher on the team. Even if he sucks, the first year, the team makes the playoffs. Awful with the Sox...playoffs. Good with the Yankees...playoffs. Awful with Cleveland....playoffs.

[Lip Man 1]

If Jeff Samardzija was Jake Arreitta, and Jake Areitta, Jeff Samardzija, Theo, who offered Shark $85 million, wouldn't be a genius, and Rick Hahn would be a boy wonder, and KW would have had nothing to do with the treade.

 

But in typical White Sox fashion it didn't turn out for the Sox benefit did it? And there as Shakespeare once wrote "lies the rub..." LOL.

 

Mark

[Lip Man 1]

Why do 2005 and 2008 have to be outliers? They still won 90 games in 2006, and that was with every starting pitcher performing significantly worse than the year before. Hell if Buehrle just has his usual season we would have made the playoffs that year. 2003 and 2004 they weren't too far off either (83 wins with your two best hitters out the whole year isn't too shabby, who knows what would have happened if Frank and Maggs were healthy). We were also a couple small things going our way from making the playoffs in 2010 and 2012. It's not like we're the Marlins who lose 90+ games every season except for the two completely random seasons when everything came together. The last few seasons have been rough but from 2000-2012 the White Sox were usually in playoff contention. Things certainly haven't been great, but it hasn't been quite as bad as you're making it seem.

 

Omar:

 

I agree with you... the problem is going back to the 50's the Sox are always "close" but never get it done. Something always jumps up and bites them in the ass. Again I can only restate history, they are the only one of the original 16 pre expansion franchises to have never made the playoffs in consecutive seasons. We're talking 115 years.

 

Even the clownish Cubs have been able to pull that one off.

 

What does that say about the Sox? Or do you (not necessarily you personally) start believing in "curses..." LOL.

 

Like Jack McDowell told me once the Sox haven't won more often because they've had "bad players, bad managers and bad general managers."

 

Hard to argue with his remarks.

 

And it also says something when the brain-dead Marlins have won more World Series in their history than the Sox got to the World Series between 1919 and 2005.

 

Mark

Edited September 24, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[southsider2k5]

Omar:

 

I agree with you... the problem is going back to the 50's the Sox are always "close" but never get it done. Something always jumps up and bites them in the ass. Again I can only restate history, they are the only one of the original 16 pre expansion franchises to have never made the playoffs in consecutive seasons. We're talking 115 years.

 

Even the clownish Cubs have been able to pull that one off.

 

What does that say about the Sox? Or do you (not necessarily you personally) start believing in "curses..." LOL.

 

Like Jack McDowell told me once the Sox haven't won more often because they've had "bad players, bad managers and bad general managers."

 

Hard to argue with his remarks.

 

And it also says something when the brain-dead Marlins have won more World Series in their history than the Sox got to the World Series between 1919 and 2005.

 

Mark

 

The Marlins also have had 8 people manage their team since 2010 and 0 playoff appearances to show for it. They are about the polar opposite of the "loyalty" meme.

 

[Dick Allen]

Omar:

 

I agree with you... the problem is going back to the 50's the Sox are always "close" but never get it done. Something always jumps up and bites them in the ass. Again I can only restate history, they are the only one of the original 16 pre expansion franchises to have never made the playoffs in consecutive seasons. We're talking 115 years.

 

Even the clownish Cubs have been able to pull that one off.

 

What does that say about the Sox? Or do you (not necessarily you personally) start believing in "curses..." LOL.

 

Like Jack McDowell told me once the Sox haven't won more often because they've had "bad players, bad managers and bad general managers."

 

Hard to argue with his remarks.

 

And it also says something when the brain-dead Marlins have won more World Series in their history than the Sox got to the World Series between 1919 and 2005.

 

Mark

Maybe if Black Jack would have showed up in the playoffs things would have been different. It is funny how you rip loyalty but are loyal to any White Sox employee who speaks to you, and you totally disregard their failures.

 

1993 playoffs 0-2 10.00 ERA. Yeah Jack not your fault.

 

Also when the Cubs made it to 2 in a row earlier this decade, the White Soc actually won more playoff games these years.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Dick Allen

[GreenSox]

I don't think it matters whether they are in the top 10 or not.

they don't need to chase FAs.

They need to stockpile young talent.