Some disturbing Sox numbers…yet the status quo remains

[captain54]

Since the Sox fade down the stretch in 2012, (where they went 4-11, from 9-19 till the end of the season).. a terrible offensive slump and starters ERA in the 5's was their doom..

 

Combined record to date over the course of roughly three seasons: 212-279… 67 games under .500

 

Understood that the win pct. has gone up since the end of 2012, but comparing 2014 to 2015, we are only taking about 3 wins…

 

the nightmarish 2013 record will skew this, but we have an average seasonal record over 3 seasons of roughly 70-92

 

Now I challenge anyone to name me one organization that puts this type of product on the field, and makes NO major changes concerning the powers that be that have engineered this mess over three seasons….

 

Underperforming players? (By the way, Rongey's favorite catch phrase).. Somepne in authority has put these under performers on the roster, on a consistent basis for a while now.. yet.. no responsibility.. no accountability..

Edited September 25, 2015 by captain54

[Dick Allen]

Since the Sox fade down the stretch in 2012, (where they went 4-11, from 9-19 till the end of the season).. a terrible offensive slump and starters ERA in the 5's was their doom..

 

Combined record to date over the course of roughly three seasons: 212-279…87 games under .500

 

Understood that the win pct. has gone up since the end of 2012, but comparing 2014 to 2015, we are only taking about 3 wins…

 

the nightmarish 2013 record will skew this, but we have an average seasonal record over 3 seasons of roughly 70-92

 

Now I challenge anyone to name me one organization that puts this type of product on the field, and makes NO major changes concerning the powers that be that have engineered this mess over three seasons….

 

Underperforming players? (By the way, Rongey's favorite catch phrase).. Somepne in authority has put these under performers on the roster, on a consistent basis for a while now.. yet.. no responsibility.. no accountability..

Counting the record the last few years would be like holding John Fox responsible if the Bears start out 0-3. They ran out of gas in 2012, it was all they could do. Youk was cashed, Sale was cashed. In 2013 Paulie was hurt, the people's choice at that time behind the plate showed why he was a back up. The Sox traded away pieces at the deadline. Last year was a rebuilding year. No need to get depressed about that record. This year, yeah, it was disappointed, but they are closer than they were a couple of years ago, and plan to get closer in the winter. The difference between good and bad can be a rather slim line. Take the Cubs, what if Houston drafted Bryant? What if Samardzija accepted the extension? What if Arrietta was the same pitcher or slightly better than he was in Baltimore?

[flavum]

Counting the record the last few years would be like holding John Fox responsible if the Bears start out 0-3. They ran out of gas in 2012, it was all they could do. Youk was cashed, Sale was cashed. In 2013 Paulie was hurt, the people's choice at that time behind the plate showed why he was a back up. The Sox traded away pieces at the deadline. Last year was a rebuilding year. No need to get depressed about that record. This year, yeah, it was disappointed, but they are closer than they were a couple of years ago, and plan to get closer in the winter. The difference between good and bad can be a rather slim line. Take the Cubs, what if Houston drafted Bryant? What if Samardzija accepted the extension? What if Arrietta was the same pitcher or slightly better than he was in Baltimore?

 

Enjoy easier parking and shorter lines next year.

[Lip Man 1]

Since the Sox fade down the stretch in 2012, (where they went 4-11, from 9-19 till the end of the season).. a terrible offensive slump and starters ERA in the 5's was their doom..

 

Combined record to date over the course of roughly three seasons: 212-279…87 games under .500

 

Understood that the win pct. has gone up since the end of 2012, but comparing 2014 to 2015, we are only taking about 3 wins…

 

the nightmarish 2013 record will skew this, but we have an average seasonal record over 3 seasons of roughly 70-92

 

Now I challenge anyone to name me one organization that puts this type of product on the field, and makes NO major changes concerning the powers that be that have engineered this mess over three seasons….

 

Underperforming players? (By the way, Rongey's favorite catch phrase).. Somepne in authority has put these under performers on the roster, on a consistent basis for a while now.. yet.. no responsibility.. no accountability..

 

Excellent, EXCELLENT post Captain.

 

I was going to comment on something along these lines myself. Thank you for beating me to it and doing so in such a good way.

 

The Sox probably WILL win more games than last season. The organization will use this as partly to justify bringing Ventura and his coaching staff back for another year. They'll tell what remaining fans are left, "we're making progress!!!!!" (and then because the coaching staff is the same start off with another unfocused, bad defensively, fundamentally and base running component to the season immediately putting them into another April hole.))

 

But I can't help think of the famous axiom "there are lies, damn lies and statistics..." - Mark Twain.

 

Even though the Sox will have moved closer to the .500 mark, are they really better? Are they really closer to becoming what Rick Hahn himself stated that he wanted "to be a consistent, winning franchise."

 

Look at the reality of this roster:

 

DH, catcher, 3rd base are offensive black holes (in a league where power and run production is high because of the DH).

 

Left and right field are below average offensively and again from a power / RBI position.

 

The middle infield has very little power / run production capability.

 

The Sox are going to lose at least one starting pitcher (Shark), maybe two if they trade Q and Danks is on his last legs. That's 60% of the rotation.

 

The bullpen while better still has areas of concern and at least one key member of it is in his 30's.

 

Defensively this team is poor, they lack fundamentals, can't steal bases, create runs.

 

The minor leagues still aren't producing any type of "impact" major league caliber players on offense.

 

The off season free agent class by all accounts from those posting on this site isn't great and the Sox will probably have less money to spend this year because it's logical to assume many of those who bought into the hype last off season and got season tickets won't be coming back.

 

I'm at a loss to figure out a way the Sox can solve enough of these issues again in a single off season to realistically "contend" let alone win even a watered down post season spot in 2016.

 

Yes, I'm deliberately taking the most negative approach because to me that's exactly what the Sox front office needs to do and work from there. That way if some things do actually go their way next year they might find themselves ahead of the curve in some areas.

 

Yes mathematically 63 to 73 to let's say 76 win is "progress". But the reality is those are all still bad, losing records for a franchise that is becoming more and more irrelevant in their own market with every passing season.

 

There hasn't been such a sustained run of poor baseball by this franchise (six losing years in nine) since the late 60's through the 70's. That's a long time ago. Conditions have changed since then, the competition is more intense...can this organization find their way out of the mess they themselves created? That's the million dollar question isn't it?

 

Mark

Edited September 24, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[LDF]

Excellent, EXCELLENT post Captain.

 

I was going to comment on something along these lines myself. Thank you for beating me to it and doing so in such a good way.

 

The Sox probably WILL win more games than last season. The organization will use this as partly to justify bringing Ventura and his coaching staff back for another year. They'll tell what remaining fans are left, "we're making progress!!!!!" (and then because the coaching staff is the same start off with another unfocused, bad defensively, fundamentally and base running component to the season immediately putting them into another April hole.))

 

But I can't help think of the famous axiom "there are lies, damn lies and statistics..." - Mark Twain.

 

Even though the Sox will have moved closer to the .500 mark, are they really better? Are they really closer to becoming what Rick Hahn himself stated that he wanted "to be a consistent, winning franchise."

 

Look at the reality of this roster:

 

DH, catcher, 3rd base are offensive black holes (in a league where power and run production is high because of the DH).

 

Left and right field are below average offensively and again from a power / RBI position.

 

The middle infield has very little power / run production capability.

 

The Sox are going to lose at least one starting pitcher (Shark), maybe two if they trade Q and Danks is on his last legs. That's 60% of the rotation.

 

The bullpen while better still has areas of concern and at least one key member of it is in his 30's.

 

Defensively this team is poor, they lack fundamentals, can't steal bases, create runs.

 

The minor leagues still aren't producing any type of "impact" major league caliber players.

 

The off season free agent class by all accounts from those posting on this site isn't great and the Sox will probably have less money to spend this year because it's logical to assume many of those who bought into the hype last off season and got season tickets won't be coming back.

 

I'm at a loss to figure out a way the Sox can solve enough of these issues again in a single off season to realistically "contend" let alone win even a watered down post season spot in 2016.

 

Yes, I'm deliberately taking the most negative approach because to me that's exactly what the Sox front office needs to do and work from there. That way if some things do actually go their way next year they might find themselves ahead of the curve in some areas.

 

Yes mathematically 63 to 73 to let's say 76 win is "progress". But the reality is those are all still bad, losing records for a franchise that is becoming more and more irrelevant in their own market with every passing season.

 

There hasn't been such a sustained run of poor baseball by this franchise (six losing years in nine) since the late 60's through the 70's. That's a long time ago. Conditions have changed since then, the competition is more intense...can this organization find their way out of the mess they themselves created? That's the million dollar question isn't it?

 

Mark

 

some of what you post is..... cold heart facts that the sox fo will not look at.

 

they will look at this and minimize the damage that can come from this. the owners will not to hear the negative. i say this, b/c if he really did, there would have been a complete, whole sale group of new players in charge.

[elrockinMT]

I think we have tried to do some things to change the status quo every year. Unfortunately the moves haven't panned out. But, the team hasn't met expectations not because the players or organization gave up. A lot of folks who complain have their favorites. They will use stats from past years to justify keeping the faith in someone who is currently failing. I think using past stas to judge future performance has some merits. But, you do it with everyone. This team has talent and we are seeing some youngsters with promise also. There are some improvements that can be made certainly and I am waiting for the off season. I have faith in the Sox organization and look forward to 2016

Edited September 24, 2015 by elrockinMT

[Dick Allen]

Exactly. People are so focused on LaRoche vs. LHP, they completely ignore how horrible Abreu was vs. LHP. LaRoche is supposed to be bad, Abreu not.

 

The team was just horrible at the start and it snowballed. Any time it seemed they might turn the corner, another clunker. It was a bad year. The Sox talent level isn't as bad as it is made out to be. Every team has holes. Mike Olt was the Cubs starting 3B on Opening Day.

[Lip Man 1]

Exactly. People are so focused on LaRoche vs. LHP, they completely ignore how horrible Abreu was vs. LHP. LaRoche is supposed to be bad, Abreu not.

 

The team was just horrible at the start and it snowballed. Any time it seemed they might turn the corner, another clunker. It was a bad year. The Sox talent level isn't as bad as it is made out to be. Every team has holes. Mike Olt was the Cubs starting 3B on Opening Day.

 

Not relevant because everyone knew Bryant would be up in 20 days and Olt was simply a temporary fill in.

 

Last I looked the Sox don't have a Kris Bryant ready to step in someplace.

 

Mark

[southsider2k5]

Not relevant because everyone knew Bryant would be up in 20 days and Olt was simply a temporary fill in.

 

Last I looked the Sox don't have a Kris Bryant ready to step in someplace.

 

Mark

 

They had one step into the starting rotation, his name was Carlos Rodon.

[Thad Bosley]

Exactly. People are so focused on LaRoche vs. LHP, they completely ignore how horrible Abreu was vs. LHP. LaRoche is supposed to be bad, Abreu not.

 

The team was just horrible at the start and it snowballed. Any time it seemed they might turn the corner, another clunker. It was a bad year. The Sox talent level isn't as bad as it is made out to be. Every team has holes. Mike Olt was the Cubs starting 3B on Opening Day.

No? Then explain the league's worst offense, near-worst defense, the mediocre at-best pitching (overall), the horrific baserunning, etc. That takes more than just "clunkers" and "holes" here and there to accomplish that. I mean, c'mon - don't put lipstick on this pig! There are a few bright spots on this team, to be sure, but the fact of the matter is, the talent level isn't as good as you suggest. Not at the moment it's not.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Thad Bosley

[Lip Man 1]

They had one step into the starting rotation, his name was Carlos Rodon.

 

True, Rodon will be an outstanding pitcher. One who can make an impact every five days.

 

My original statement stands, where is the Sox Kris Bryant an everyday player with that kind of impact ready to come up from the minor leagues?

 

Mark

Edited September 24, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[Jose Abreu]

No? Then explain the league's worst offense, near-worst defense, the mediocre at-best pitching (overall), the horrific baserunning, etc. That takes more than just "clunkers" and "holes" here and there to accomplish that. I mean, c'mon - don't put lipstick on this pig! There are a few bright spots on this team, to be sure, but the fact of the matter is, the talent level isn't as good as you suggest. Not at the moment it's not.

8th highest pitching fWAR in baseball out of the 30 teams... 3rd best rotation in terms of fWAR in baseball...

 

We do have talent. However 75% of it is pitching, and 75% of our pitching talent is in our rotation.

[Dick Allen]

No? Then explain the league's worst offense, near-worst defense, the mediocre at-best pitching (overall), the horrific baserunning, etc. That takes more than just "clunkers" and "holes" here and there to accomplish that. I mean, c'mon - don't put lipstick on this pig! There are a few bright spots on this team, to be sure, but the fact of the matter is, the talent level isn't as good as you suggest. Not at the moment it's not.

Why aren't they on a pace to lose 100 games. Give up your fandom like you threatened earlier in the year. Go to the Cubbies. Enjoy.

[Saufley]

Excellent, EXCELLENT post Captain.

 

I was going to comment on something along these lines myself. Thank you for beating me to it and doing so in such a good way.

 

The Sox probably WILL win more games than last season. The organization will use this as partly to justify bringing Ventura and his coaching staff back for another year. They'll tell what remaining fans are left, "we're making progress!!!!!" (and then because the coaching staff is the same start off with another unfocused, bad defensively, fundamentally and base running component to the season immediately putting them into another April hole.))

 

But I can't help think of the famous axiom "there are lies, damn lies and statistics..." - Mark Twain.

 

Even though the Sox will have moved closer to the .500 mark, are they really better? Are they really closer to becoming what Rick Hahn himself stated that he wanted "to be a consistent, winning franchise."

 

Look at the reality of this roster:

 

DH, catcher, 3rd base are offensive black holes (in a league where power and run production is high because of the DH).

 

Left and right field are below average offensively and again from a power / RBI position.

 

The middle infield has very little power / run production capability.

 

The Sox are going to lose at least one starting pitcher (Shark), maybe two if they trade Q and Danks is on his last legs. That's 60% of the rotation.

 

The bullpen while better still has areas of concern and at least one key member of it is in his 30's.

 

Defensively this team is poor, they lack fundamentals, can't steal bases, create runs.

 

The minor leagues still aren't producing any type of "impact" major league caliber players on offense.

 

The off season free agent class by all accounts from those posting on this site isn't great and the Sox will probably have less money to spend this year because it's logical to assume many of those who bought into the hype last off season and got season tickets won't be coming back.

 

I'm at a loss to figure out a way the Sox can solve enough of these issues again in a single off season to realistically "contend" let alone win even a watered down post season spot in 2016.

 

Yes, I'm deliberately taking the most negative approach because to me that's exactly what the Sox front office needs to do and work from there. That way if some things do actually go their way next year they might find themselves ahead of the curve in some areas.

 

Yes mathematically 63 to 73 to let's say 76 win is "progress". But the reality is those are all still bad, losing records for a franchise that is becoming more and more irrelevant in their own market with every passing season.

 

There hasn't been such a sustained run of poor baseball by this franchise (six losing years in nine) since the late 60's through the 70's. That's a long time ago. Conditions have changed since then, the competition is more intense...can this organization find their way out of the mess they themselves created? That's the million dollar question isn't it?

 

Mark

 

I, for one, appreciate your showing the most negative approach because I believe that is how most Sox fans feel!! Yours and Captains posts are right on!!

 

[Saufley]

Exactly. People are so focused on LaRoche vs. LHP, they completely ignore how horrible Abreu was vs. LHP. LaRoche is supposed to be bad, Abreu not.

 

The team was just horrible at the start and it snowballed. Any time it seemed they might turn the corner, another clunker. It was a bad year. The Sox talent level isn't as bad as it is made out to be. Every team has holes. Mike Olt was the Cubs starting 3B on Opening Day.

 

The cubs started Olt and were waiting for Bryant. We start Olt and are waiting for who?

 

[fathom]

True, Rodon will be an outstanding pitcher. One who can make an impact every five days.

 

My original statement stands, where is the Sox Kris Bryant an everyday player with that kind of impact ready to come up from the minor leagues?

 

Mark

 

Some teams are strong at developing pitching, while others developing hitting. Sox and Cubs are basically total opposites, with both teams having to pay a ton of money to try and upgrade the area they're weak at developing. I tend to think people underestimate just how good the 3-headed lefty monster of Sale/Q/Rodon could be.

[Dick Allen]

True, Rodon will be an outstanding pitcher. One who can make an impact every five days.

 

My original statement stands, where is the Sox Kris Bryant an everyday player with that kind of impact ready to come up from the minor leagues?

 

Mark

He was the 2nd pick and not available for any team other than Houston and the Cubs. The Sox had the ROY last year. Abreu is their Bryant. Everyone could have had him.

[LDF]

He was the 2nd pick and not available for any team other than Houston and the Cubs. The Sox had the ROY last year. Abreu is their Bryant. Everyone could have had him.

 

ok, no offense, but i needed to get into this discussion.

 

ref to the sox, while it is true in the sox getting Jose. but the sox still has a team that is riddle in holes and no help coming .....

 

second, other teams has a good, knowledgeable management from the team managers all the way up to the upper FO.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

Since the Sox fade down the stretch in 2012, (where they went 4-11, from 9-19 till the end of the season).. a terrible offensive slump and starters ERA in the 5's was their doom..

 

Combined record to date over the course of roughly three seasons: 212-279…87 games under .500

 

Understood that the win pct. has gone up since the end of 2012, but comparing 2014 to 2015, we are only taking about 3 wins…

 

the nightmarish 2013 record will skew this, but we have an average seasonal record over 3 seasons of roughly 70-92

 

Now I challenge anyone to name me one organization that puts this type of product on the field, and makes NO major changes concerning the powers that be that have engineered this mess over three seasons….

 

Underperforming players? (By the way, Rongey's favorite catch phrase).. Somepne in authority has put these under performers on the roster, on a consistent basis for a while now.. yet.. no responsibility.. no accountability..

 

The fact Robin is still managing blows my mind. Name one other manager that has kept their job with that type of performance over a three year period when their organization is "going to compete" for the playoffs. The Sox don't have a roster full of crap. Sure, there is mostly mediocre to average players, but clearly there's a pattern of players vastly underperforming here once they get here. In my mind that points to the coaching staff being unable to get them to perform at the level of their career norms. Hell, look at how awful the Sox have looked the last few years coming out of Spring Training compared to other teams during the first week of the season. This team wiffs at the fundamentals of baseball.

 

And there's a lot to blame on the FO too. I give Hahn a pass for the most part, because I can't see him being fully in charge of the decision making while still living in KW's shadow. JR's undying loyalty and KW's stubbornness have slowly killed this franchise and produced the on-field product we have suffer through watching night in and night out. I don't see a massive amount of changes until JR kicks the bucket.

 

[captain54]

There are some improvements that can be made certainly and I am waiting for the off season. I have faith in the Sox organization and look forward to 2016

 

There were improvements that needed to be made after the 2012 season, for instance. "How did we blow a 3 game lead with 2weeks to play". " how can we fix it"? Instead the Sox proceeded to have one of the worst seasons in modern history.

 

The numbers don't lie. 67 games BELOW AVERAGE since late 2012. Think about it. That's a lot games to make up over 3 yrs to be even mediocre.

 

If the Sox FO were serious about turning things around, we would see a makeover ala Chicago Blackhawks. A fan favorite loyal member of that organization (Savard) was let go in favor of a bonafide solid hockey man. The status quo wasn't working

 

One more thing. If it would have been me, I would have launched both KW and Ozzie late in the 2011 for carrying on how they did and turning this franchise into a children's playground and laughingstock. And Cooper would have been launched this year for chiding the fans on attendance. In essence, insulting the paying customer

 

So go for it. Have faith in an organization that is attempting to turn things around with the same rum dums that produced a 67 game under .500 record over the last three years

 

 

 

 

 

[kitekrazy]

Some teams are strong at developing pitching, while others developing hitting. Sox and Cubs are basically total opposites, with both teams having to pay a ton of money to try and upgrade the area they're weak at developing. I tend to think people underestimate just how good the 3-headed lefty monster of Sale/Q/Rodon could be.

 

Only those who think of trading them. Smarj IMO does not have any impressive stats yet he would be expensive for the production you would get out of him. The Cubs didn't feel that way either.

 

[Lip Man 1]

I, for one, appreciate your showing the most negative approach because I believe that is how most Sox fans feel!! Yours and Captains posts are right on!!

 

Saufley:

 

I wish I didn't have to. I'd rather not but "it's time" (sorry LOL) that people need to be hit in the head with a 2 X 4 to get them to wake up. And I hope the Sox take the same attitude, everything isn't close to smelling like roses. Maybe if they take that approach they'll do some things differently and if some things go their way next year they can be ahead of the curve in certain aspects.

 

Mark

[Lip Man 1]

ok, no offense, but i needed to get into this discussion.

 

ref to the sox, while it is true in the sox getting Jose. but the sox still has a team that is riddle in holes and no help coming .....

 

second, other teams has a good, knowledgeable management from the team managers all the way up to the upper FO.

 

LDF:

 

EXACTLY but some folks continue to be so obtuse as to not understand it for their own reasons apparently.

 

Yet again my point wasn't just Kris Bryant exactly...only him, it was any of a bunch of good young players they have up and down that organization. And for that matter other organizations like the Cardinals, Pirates, Astros et al.

 

Why is that so hard to understand?

 

Mark

[LDF]

The fact Robin is still managing blows my mind. Name one other manager that has kept their job with that type of performance over a three year period when their organization is "going to compete" for the playoffs. The Sox don't have a roster full of crap. Sure, there is mostly mediocre to average players, but clearly there's a pattern of players vastly underperforming here once they get here. In my mind that points to the coaching staff being unable to get them to perform at the level of their career norms. Hell, look at how awful the Sox have looked the last few years coming out of Spring Training compared to other teams during the first week of the season. This team wiffs at the fundamentals of baseball.

 

And there's a lot to blame on the FO too. I give Hahn a pass for the most part, because I can't see him being fully in charge of the decision making while still living in KW's shadow. JR's undying loyalty and KW's stubbornness have slowly killed this franchise and produced the on-field product we have suffer through watching night in and night out. I don't see a massive amount of changes until JR kicks the bucket.

 

you make a convincing argument, ref the bold, i totally agree 100 %.

[LDF]

There were improvements that needed to be made after the 2012 season, for instance. "How did we blow a 3 game lead with 2weeks to play". " how can we fix it"? Instead the Sox proceeded to have one of the worst seasons in modern history.

 

The numbers don't lie. 67 games BELOW AVERAGE #1. since late 2012. Think about it. That's a lot games to make up over 3 yrs to be even mediocre.

 

If the Sox FO were serious about turning things around, #2 we would see a makeover ala Chicago Blackhawks. A fan favorite loyal member of that organization (Savard) was let go in favor of a bonafide solid hockey man. The status quo wasn't working

 

One more thing. If it would have been me, #3 I would have launched both KW and Ozzie late in the 2011 for carrying on how they did and turning this franchise into a children's playground and laughingstock. And Cooper would have been launched this year for chiding the fans on attendance. In essence, insulting the paying customer

 

So go for it. Have faith in an organization that is attempting to turn things around with the same rum dums that produced a 67 game under .500 record over the last three years

 

ref the bold

#1 . the 3 yr plan.... shouldn't the 3 plan start then or the following yr. is it management ambition to make the fans look silly in hopes of believe the BS they spew out..... btw, isn't it time for the monthly KW pep talk on the team doings.

 

#2. wait, lets talk about something that the owners can relate to. with the present management team, the sox will continue to loose regardless of any on the improvement the FO does. the owners expects the fans to really trust the present management by spending money..... to buy tickets. manipulation is something the owner should realize that the fans will not buy the bs. the fans can see the lies b/c i find it hard to imagine if the FO is this dump. sacrificing wins and titles for the sake of making money.

 

#3. wake up and smell the coffee, the loyalty ..... but not to the fans.

 

all this for the almighty dollar.