Hatchetman Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 They would've have just hired some other lackey with no experience so I don't see why it matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsoxhurt35 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 It's not all on Robin but we can all agree he has no business being the manager. Stop defending him DA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 This will be one long fall/winter/spring/summer/fall/winter… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 07:57 PM) It's not all on Robin but we can all agree he has no business being the manager. Stop defending him DA. The weird thing is you never hear a word from anybody but us and the Sox announcers about how bad the Sox are in fundamentals and baserunning. It's pretty obvious Hawk and Stone think Robin blows cause if they thought he could lead a team they'd be telling us that over and over. Instead? Silence. Edited October 3, 2015 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsoxhurt35 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 I know our lineup sucks but this team continuously makes stupid mistakes and lacks fundamentals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 02:01 PM) The weird thing is you never hear a word from anybody but us and the Sox announcers about how bad the Sox are in fundamentals and baserunning. It's pretty obvious Hawk and Stone think Robin blows cause if they thought he could lead a team they'd be telling us that over and over. Instead? Silence. I've heard them point out obvious mistakes a lot more this year. Personally, I think every one of the Sox announcers would say Robin is a nice guy, but they need a new leader...or A leader. Edited October 3, 2015 by flavum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 08:54 AM) http://www.southsidesox.com/2015/10/3/9443...t-robin-ventura As things stand right now, they're going to be picked for last place (behind DET) by about 80% of the baseball writers out there. And that woul be the case even with Yasiel Puig and Iwakuma/Latos coming on board, possibly. Does it matter where the baseball writers predict they will finish? Does it matter that some picked this team to win the division? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 05:50 AM) Bochy managed teams have lost at least 86 games 8 times. His first 2 seasons in SF, they lost over 90 each time. Now he is a genius. Funny how a better roster works. Go check out Joe Torre and Booby Cox records when they didn't have good players. Even Joe Maddon's. Common sense! Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 (edited) How much managers matter is open to debate but I think everyone agrees they set the tone, they keep things in control, if discipline is needed it falls on them. Absolutely the players are somewhat responsible, don't think anyone is saying they aren't. However I find it odd that over the past few years more often than not when a new player puts on a White Sox uniform something happens.More often than not they perform worse. Why is that? That's why I think something is going on in the clubhouse. That absolutely reflects back on the manager and by proxy his staff. That's why you needed to make some major changes. One definition of insanity is trying the same failed approach over and over and thinking things will be different. I repeat what I said earlier, for next year the Sox are selling 'hope' because that's all they've got now. And, it's baseball...stranger things have happened, they may catch lightening in a bottle and win 94 games next year. But if it was my money, I wouldn't bet on it. And I also agree with those who feel the blame isn't completely on Robin from an upper management standpoint. Rick and kenny (moreso Kenny in my opinion) have made some poor decisions over the past few years but it was kenny since he was the G.M. until a few years ago who by continuing to make the "big splash' and by his continual "go for it" attitude and short term thinking that is most responsible. Mark Edited October 3, 2015 by Lip Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 Around the time the Cubs were looking to hire Maddon, all the sports radio guys would talk to experts from Baseball Prospectus, etc. They all believe that managers matter very little over the course of the season with regards to in-game decisions. Maybe a 3-5 game difference at best. The big impact is on preparation and scouting (ie...Pirates over the last few years). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 12:22 PM) However I find it odd that over the past few years more often than not when a new player puts on a White Sox uniform something happens.More often than not they perform worse. Why is that? Do a quantitative analysis of every new player for the Sox in recent years (the Ventura era I presume is what you're referring to) then do the same for every other baseball team. Do the same for the White Sox other another manager (perhaps Guillen). Control for age/level of decline-phase. Then present your results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 02:28 PM) Around the time the Cubs were looking to hire Maddon, all the sports radio guys would talk to experts from Baseball Prospectus, etc. They all believe that managers matter very little over the course of the season with regards to in-game decisions. Maybe a 3-5 game difference at best. The big impact is on preparation and scouting (ie...Pirates over the last few years). All you have to is look at the salaries. If managers mattered much more than that, they'd be getting big-time money. A player who can add 5 wins to your team could command $25 million a year. Meanwhile, the top managers in the game are getting paid less than some bench players. That should be pretty telling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 07:34 PM) All you have to is look at the salaries. If managers mattered much more than that, they'd be getting big-time money. A player who can add 5 wins to your team could command $25 million a year. Meanwhile, the top managers in the game are getting paid less than some bench players. That should be pretty telling. Yep, for me, I think Ventura has done a fairly solid job with his in-game decisions this year. Biggest fault I have with him is the team seemed to lack focus at the end of ST and they got off to a miserable start. Not sure how much of that is his fault, as this team was going nowhere with Sale not pitching like an ace for a portion of the season and Samardzija pitching like he was back in the steroid era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 Whether or not you like Robin, he should not be back for the following reasons: - After 3 losing years (and one extremely disappointing year), any team hell bent on winning would not bring him back. - No decent bench coaches are going to join a lame duck coach's staff. - There is no denying that a different/fresh coaching approach could provide a shot in the arm to the team. This on the heels of the LaRoche signing, Shark trade, and failure to trade Shark at the deadline.. Looks like our management is the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 12:13 PM) If you think managers have enough of an impact to have -5 or -8 WAR then they are vastly underpaid. No way. Also, Bochy is a good manager but to me the Giants are the poster-child for why baseball playoffs are a crap shoot. They won because Cody Ross randomly became Mike Trout for a few series and Bumgarner became Superman. Maybe they are underpaid, but I can easily see how managers can make bad moves that cost 5+ games a year, and I'm not even counting what I consider the bigger problem with the White Sox, which is HORRIBLE fundamentals year after year without correction. And then there is the issue of just getting the team to play to its capabilities. The White Sox started out horribly this year, with player after player unable to come close to career norms. Is that all the players fault? Would a different leader have helped them perform better as a team to begin the year? And had we started better, would the run just prior to the trade deadline put us comfortably over .500 instead of a last attempt to get to that level? And had we been ahead of .500, wouldn't the team have been fighting for a playoff spot until the end, instead of largely mailing in the last month? In my opinion, different managers of the same team could easily make a 10% difference in the performance level of a club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 03:28 PM) Around the time the Cubs were looking to hire Maddon, all the sports radio guys would talk to experts from Baseball Prospectus, etc. They all believe that managers matter very little over the course of the season with regards to in-game decisions. Maybe a 3-5 game difference at best. The big impact is on preparation and scouting (ie...Pirates over the last few years). In-game decisions is, to me, an important part, but not the crucial part. Are they fundamentally sound? Do they execute well? Do they run the bases smartly? Do they hit the cut off man? Do they hit the other way? Do they know how to move runners over? Do they play as a team? How does the club carry itself? Does it have confidence? Does it know how to win, and find ways to win? Are players put in the best position to succeed? Or used in ways that make that harder? And are players held accountable when they screw up, so as to be brought back to playing the right way? I don't get the feeling Robin Ventura does ANY of this well. And certainly the Sox don't do any of it well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 The White Sox kind of took a step back on purpose in 2013 and 2014. I would have been fine with a change but I don't really care in all honesty. They need players. You can't purposely "lose" for 2 seasons, try to win in 2015, and then say Robin Ventura has had 3 straight losing seasons. It's a dumb argument. Of course he did. They didn't have the talent to win the last 2 years and knew that from the start. This year is a different story. I just hate season that dumb "he's been bad for 3 years" argument. It's lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (VAfan @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 03:39 PM) In-game decisions is, to me, an important part, but not the crucial part. Are they fundamentally sound? Do they execute well? Do they run the bases smartly? Do they hit the cut off man? Do they hit the other way? Do they know how to move runners over? Do they play as a team? How does the club carry itself? Does it have confidence? Does it know how to win, and find ways to win? Are players put in the best position to succeed? Or used in ways that make that harder? And are players held accountable when they screw up, so as to be brought back to playing the right way? I don't get the feeling Robin Ventura does ANY of this well. And certainly the Sox don't do any of it well. These guys have played professional baseball for years and years, they shouldn't need to be taught this stuff by the manager. Especially the veterans that we brought in. If Melky Cabrera suddenly forgets how to hit the cut-off man after he puts on a White Sox uniform, I don't see how that's on Ventura. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 01:40 PM) The White Sox kind of took a step back on purpose in 2013 and 2014. I would have been fine with a change but I don't really care in all honesty. They need players. You can't purposely "lose" for 2 seasons, try to win in 2015, and then say Robin Ventura has had 3 straight losing seasons. It's a dumb argument. Of course he did. They didn't have the talent to win the last 2 years and knew that from the start. This year is a different story. I just hate season that dumb "he's been bad for 3 years" argument. It's lazy. More common sense! Thank you. I will list the 2013 starting lineup that was supposed to "compete for the playoffs," and you will laugh. Alejandro DeAza Gordon Beckham Paul Konerko Adam Dunn Alex Rios Dayan Viciedo Alexei Ramirez Conor Gillaspie/Jeff Keppinger Tyler Flowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (Vance Law @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 05:09 PM) More common sense! Thank you. I will list the 2013 starting lineup that was supposed to "compete for the playoffs," and you will laugh. Alejandro DeAza Gordon Beckham Paul Konerko Adam Dunn Alex Rios Dayan Viciedo Alexei Ramirez Conor Gillaspie/Jeff Keppinger Tyler Flowers That team was supposed to be competitive. They had a $115 million+ opening day payroll. They increased their payroll significantly from 2012. Saying the 2013 white sox were a laughable roster is the same hindsight as saying the 2015 roster was. We were supposed to compete those years and talked like it during the offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 04:14 PM) That team was supposed to be competitive. They had a $115 million+ opening day payroll. They increased their payroll significantly from 2012. Saying the 2013 white sox were a laughable roster is the same hindsight as saying the 2015 roster was. We were supposed to compete those years and talked like it during the offseason. Yeah I don't think anyone expected a team that almost won the division in 2012 to tank so badly. We definitely wanted to compete in 2013. The only true rebuilding year was 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (Vance Law @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 02:12 PM) Does it matter where the baseball writers predict they will finish? Does it matter that some picked this team to win the division? Francona needs to be fired. SI had them winning the WS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 05:23 PM) Yeah I don't think anyone expected a team that almost won the division in 2012 to tank so badly. We definitely wanted to compete in 2013. The only true rebuilding year was 2014. I was absolutely stunned at the dropoff in quality of play. I didn't predict things like Paulie finally falling apart completely or Sale getting hurt and that would have probably have made that team unable to compete even if things went well, but that 2012 team was the crispest team in the field I've ever seen and the same players turned into a clown show in 2013. I thought that looked like a strong roster because I was expecting the 2012 strong coaching to continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsoxhurt35 Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 04:26 PM) Francona needs to be fired. SI had them winning the WS. Francona is a WS winning manager. Robin has won jack s***. You can have more patience with Francona. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 3, 2015 -> 04:29 PM) Francona is a WS winning manager. Robin has won jack s***. You can have more patience with Francona. Francona's first 4 years as a manager 68-94 75-87 77-85 65-97 Why would anyone ver give him another job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.