Hahn Confirms: Ventura back for 2016

[Vance Law]

That team was supposed to be competitive. They had a $115 million+ opening day payroll. They increased their payroll significantly from 2012. Saying the 2013 white sox were a laughable roster is the same hindsight as saying the 2015 roster was. We were supposed to compete those years and talked like it during the offseason.

 

I'm aware of the hindsight. I'm saying from right now, it's insane to think that team could compete, or to hold Ventura accountable for them sucking.

 

Konerko is supposed to be the best hitter on that team. He was already toast.

[Balta1701]

I'm aware of the hindsight. I'm saying from right now, it's insane to think that team could compete, or to hold Ventura accountable for them sucking.

 

Konerko is supposed to be the best hitter on that team. He was already toast.

If that team was as good fundamentally as they were in 2012 but Konerko was toast and Sale was hurt, IMO they're a .500 team or nearly so. Again IMO, the reason they were SO AWFUL in all caps was that they suddenly were the worst fundamental, worst defense, stupidest team I'd seen in my time as a White Sox fan, right after the best fundamental team I'd seen as a White Sox fan.

[Dick Allen]

If that team was as good fundamentally as they were in 2012 but Konerko was toast and Sale was hurt, IMO they're a .500 team or nearly so. Again IMO, the reason they were SO AWFUL in all caps was that they suddenly were the worst fundamental, worst defense, stupidest team I'd seen in my time as a White Sox fan, right after the best fundamental team I'd seen as a White Sox fan.

Even after pedaling Peavy and Rios ?

 

Sox talk did get what they wanted in 2013. Tyler Flowers.

 

The fact is, the reason the team was bad wasn't coaching or managing.

 

If Joe Maddom was the 2013 White Sox manager with the same roster, are they a playoff team?

Edited October 3, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Even after pedaling Peavy and Rios ?

 

Sox talk did did what they wanted in 2013. Tyler Flowers.

 

The fact is, the reason the team was bad wasn't coaching or managing.

 

If Joe Maddom was the 2013 White Sox manager with the same roster, are they a playoff team?

They traded Peavy and Rios because they were ungodly awful in the 1st half. That's one of the worst questions you've ever asked. If the White Sox were a better team they wouldn't have had to sell off Peavy, Thornton, and Rios at the deadline.

 

I also specifically said that "If the White Sox hadn't had their fundamentals collapse they're close to a .500 team". So you also didn't bother reading my words there. I don't know if Joe Maddon would have done that. I don't know if Joe Maddon could have made the 2012 team so fundamentally sound either. But IMO, if you want to see the difference coaching can make in a team, go watch the 2011, 2012, and 2013 seasons for the White Sox. You will see an incredible fundamental team, one as focused as I've ever seen, surrounded by 2 teams that didn't care one iota.

[Dick Allen]

They traded Peavy and Rios because they were ungodly awful in the 1st half. That's one of the worst questions you've ever asked. If the White Sox were a better team they wouldn't have had to sell off Peavy, Thornton, and Rios at the deadline.

 

I also specifically said that "If the White Sox hadn't had their fundamentals collapse they're close to a .500 team". So you also didn't bother reading my words there. I don't know if Joe Maddon would have done that. I don't know if Joe Maddon could have made the 2012 team so fundamentally sound either. But IMO, if you want to see the difference coaching can make in a team, go watch the 2011, 2012, and 2013 seasons for the White Sox. You will see an incredible fundamental team, one as focused as I've ever seen, surrounded by 2 teams that didn't care one iota.

When you sell off those guys you show you are not trying to win that season anymore.

 

I don't think that had anything to do with coaching. I think it was nice they gave coaching all the credit in 2012, but when things go well they can snowball that way just like they do when they go downhill. No coach has ever got Alex Rios' head totally in the game. Alexie is another guy who seems more fundamentally sound when things are going well with the team. They didn't stop working on fundamentals in 2013, the players just didn't take them into the games.

To say a team didn't care one iota about fundamentals is maybe the most ridiculous thing you have ever posted, and that is saying something.

L

[Balta1701]

To say a team didn't care one iota about fundamentals is maybe the most ridiculous thing you have ever posted, and that is saying something.

And my reply? Go watch those teams. That statement is 100% fair and completely deserved.

[Dick Allen]

And my reply? Go watch those teams. That statement is 100% fair and completely deserved.

Using that same logic, Do you think Tyler Flowers doesn't give one iota about being a decent hitter?

 

You can't always judge desire by results.

[Vance Law]

If that team was as good fundamentally as they were in 2012 but Konerko was toast and Sale was hurt, IMO they're a .500 team or nearly so. Again IMO, the reason they were SO AWFUL in all caps was that they suddenly were the worst fundamental, worst defense, stupidest team I'd seen in my time as a White Sox fan, right after the best fundamental team I'd seen as a White Sox fan.

 

Someone has to hit the ball. 748 runs in 2012, 598 runs in 2013.

 

If Viciedo and Beckham and Flowers and Gillaspie and Keppinger had gone on elsewhere to become great players, you'd at least have the s***ty argument of "bad with Ventura, good when they played elsewhere." But we know now who these players are; offensive and/or defensive black holes and/or out of baseball. Konerko and Dunn retired.

 

So the position player value has to come from Alexei's defense and DeAza/Rios as 1.5 to 2.5 WAR corner outfielders. That's it. And Dunn as a more or less league average slugging DH. There's no surplus value. That's how you end up with a team with a 28th best 4.1 total position player WAR. All of those players are either retired, in the minor leagues, or a more depleted/declined version of their 2013 selves. Total WAR for that 2013 team's starting position players in 2015 is 0.1 WAR.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Vance Law

[Bananarchy]

Even after pedaling Peavy and Rios ?

 

Sox talk did get what they wanted in 2013. Tyler Flowers.

 

The fact is, the reason the team was bad wasn't coaching or managing.

 

If Joe Maddom was the 2013 White Sox manager with the same roster, are they a playoff team?

No, but they wouldn't look so terrible losing those games.

 

The fact is, Robin is NOT the only reason why we were terrible. A huge part of that is on the players, but there is a ton of room for improvement in the managerial ranks.

Edited October 4, 2015 by AustinIllini

[sin city sox fan]

I guess i have extra vacation time to plan for next year. I cant fathom going to spring training with no optimism and i feel this move ruins any chance of winning in 2016.

[harkness99]

Francona's first 4 years as a manager

68-94

75-87

77-85

65-97

 

Why would anyone ver give him another job?

 

 

He got fired after that 4th season and didn't manage again for another 4 years.

 

 

[caulfield12]

He got fired after that 4th season and didn't manage again for another 4 years.

 

Oops.

 

We've contributed a lot to the careers of LaRussa, Dombrowski, Lamont, Leyland and Francona...but mostly with other organizations, unfortunately.

[Vance Law]

He got fired after that 4th season and didn't manage again for another 4 years.

 

Managing terrible Phillies teams to 4 straight losing seasons, he was so awful that they had to fire him. Luckily, the Red Sox knew exactly when he would be a great manager (4 years later) and he won a World Series in his first year managing them. Oh, by the way, the team scored 949 runs.

[greg775]

Is there anybody on this board who truly thinks Robin can lead the Sox to a season where we win more than we lose next season? I see no way. There's no reason the sox couldn't have been at least as good as Minnie this year and been in the WC race til the final week. I mean, cmon. Minnesota?? Until the Royals dusted them off in the final series, they had a chance at a WC. Robin needs to retire.

[COACH612]

While also acknowledging a need for tactical improvement, Hahn said the organization believes Ventura capable of making the changes needed to win.

 

“If we didn’t feel as an organization that Robin had the ability to be a championship caliber manager, he wouldn’t be here,” Hahn said. “If we felt we didn’t have a championship caliber hitting coach, he wouldn’t be here.

 

And here lies the problem. Ventura is not the only one to blame for these consecutive losing seasons. He is only part of the problem. But I have some questions.

 

1. Ventura had no managerial experience when hired. After 4 seasons, Ventura has not figured out how to manage at the major league level? He must be a really slow learner then.

 

2. After 4 seasons, how will Ventura change his tactics? All managers have their own way of doing things, so if upper management wants tactical improvements, who will really be making game time decisions?

 

3. How can any White Sox management or fan truly believe they have a championship caliber hitting coach if their offense has truly sucked for several years? All season long LaRoche has struck out 33% of the time. Wouldn't you think the hitting coach can help change his approach at the plate? LaRoche stands straight up. They may work in the NL but perhaps not in the AL. Either LaRoche should have changed or leave him out of the lineup. I have seen way too many swings at balls bouncing at 57-59 feet. No plate discipline.

 

 

[LDF]

While also acknowledging a need for tactical improvement, Hahn said the organization believes Ventura capable of making the changes needed to win.

 

“If we didn’t feel as an organization that Robin had the ability to be a championship caliber manager, he wouldn’t be here,” Hahn said. “If we felt we didn’t have a championship caliber hitting coach, he wouldn’t be here.

 

And here lies the problem. Ventura is not the only one to blame for these consecutive losing seasons. He is only part of the problem. But I have some questions.

 

1. Ventura had no managerial experience when hired. After 4 seasons, Ventura has not figured out how to manage at the major league level? He must be a really slow learner then.

 

2. After 4 seasons, how will Ventura change his tactics? All managers have their own way of doing things, so if upper management wants tactical improvements, who will really be making game time decisions?

 

3. How can any White Sox management or fan truly believe they have a championship caliber hitting coach if their offense has truly sucked for several years? All season long LaRoche has struck out 33% of the time. Wouldn't you think the hitting coach can help change his approach at the plate? LaRoche stands straight up. They may work in the NL but perhaps not in the AL. Either LaRoche should have changed or leave him out of the lineup. I have seen way too many swings at balls bouncing at 57-59 feet. No plate discipline.

 

you make some interesting counters and really on the mark.

 

but ref the bold, that is a complete crock of a gift wrap full of shiite.

 

partly b/c of your #1 statement, but i remember the so called hands on quick training session they, by their own statement, put RV thru.

[COACH612]

 

The statement below is in regards to base running mistakes. This has been a problem for several years for which I blame the coaching staff as well as the players.

 

“Coaching is not the problem,” Eaton said. “We were well prepared coming into the season. Basepaths, it’s just us. Guys learning. From my standpoint, I’m still very young and I’m learning every day. I’m learning every day to be a better player on the basepaths, to take better care of myself out there.”

 

I'm sorry. All the players and coaches have been taught since T-Ball not to run on contact on grounders unless forced to. So when they break on contact and it's a liner, they get doubled off. Not including hit and runs which with this offense was never a good idea anyways.

 

So when Eaton says they were well prepared coming into this season, did the fundamentals suddenly change at the major league level?

[SCCWS]

Managing terrible Phillies teams to 4 straight losing seasons, he was so awful that they had to fire him. Luckily, the Red Sox knew exactly when he would be a great manager (4 years later) and he won a World Series in his first year managing them. Oh, by the way, the team scored 949 runs.

 

What you failed to include was that the team scored 961 the year before in 2003. Theo's first year also.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

What you failed to include was that the team scored 961 the year before in 2003. Theo's first year also.

But the question would be why would Theo have even hired Francona after the 4 year disaster in Philly? We have read here, no one would ever hire Robin, look at his record.

 

Francona with crappy players is a dumb ass.

 

Francona with Damon, and Papi, and Manny, and Youk in the line up and Pedro on the mound , is a genius.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Dick Allen

[LVSoxFan]

This is great news. Great to hear that at this juncture the Sox not only prize mediocrity, they reward it. How many more years do we have to watch yet another meh Sox team go out there and stink up the central division with there learn-as-you-go manager who's learned nothing as he's gone?

 

It's simply embarrassing at this point, when we have the Blackhawks (regarded as the epitome of a sports organization) and, yes, I hate to say it, the CUBS, who spent the money and made the moves and got a real manager--yet here we are, again nowhere near the playoffs, with KW still running the franchise, coasting on the fumes of 2005.

 

How does JR see that and not think to emulate it?

 

Blow it up already FFS. We s u c k.

Edited October 5, 2015 by LVSoxFan

[LDF]

This is great news. Great to hear that at this juncture the Sox not only prize mediocrity, they reward it. How many more years do we have to watch yet another meh Sox team go out there and stink up the central division with there learn-as-you-go manager who's learned nothing as he's gone?

 

It's simply embarrassing at this point, when we have the Blackhawks (regarded as the epitome of a sports organization) and, yes, I hate to say it, the CUBS, who spent the money and made the moves and got a real manager--yet here we are, again nowhere near the playoffs, with KW still running the franchise, coasting on the fumes of 2005.

 

How does JR see that and not think to emulate it?

 

Blow it up already FFS. We s u c k.

 

i really could understand your rant and in most of it i agree.

 

however in spite of the owners and kw, the sox can pull it off. do a marlins kind of acquisitions. pick up the necessary players via fa's including a marque player for the fans. make some smart trades to pick up some players that is and will be needed esp in prospects level.

 

in other words go all in and loose some money for a yr. they will have a great tax write off built in.... it can be done. the only missing pieces or unknown peices will be catcher, ss and 2b. that is if they performed as hoped.

[Eminor3rd]

MLB teams use coaching firings as misdirections. They fire your manager to appease the mob, despite the fact that there's tons of evidence -- observational, anecdotal, sabermetric, and otherwise -- that suggests that the manager has very little, if anything, to do with how well the team performs.

 

Why are you all playing into this? If you want to hold the White Sox accountable for losing, do it by asking why we have Avisail Garcia. Do it by pointing out that there were signs that Adam LaRoche or Alexei Ramirez would fall off a cliff. The players are the ones that are failing. Changing managers will do nothing to help your team, so stop letting the media and PR department "satisfy" you with manager-personnel decisions.

[flavum]

MLB teams use coaching firings as misdirections. They fire your manager to appease the mob, despite the fact that there's tons of evidence -- observational, anecdotal, sabermetric, and otherwise -- that suggests that the manager has very little, if anything, to do with how well the team performs.

 

Why are you all playing into this? If you want to hold the White Sox accountable for losing, do it by asking why we have Avisail Garcia. Do it by pointing out that there were signs that Adam LaRoche or Alexei Ramirez would fall off a cliff. The players are the ones that are failing. Changing managers will do nothing to help your team, so stop letting the media and PR department "satisfy" you with manager-personnel decisions.

 

Well then. They should probably give the entire coaching staff a 3-year extension today.

 

Can't have a manager with lame duck status, after all.

[Eminor3rd]

Well then. They should probably give the entire coaching staff a 3-year extension today.

 

Can't have a manager with lame duck status, after all.

 

The point is "who cares"? I'm not saying that any of them deserve an extension or to be fired or whatever, but just that none of it will actually solve anything.

 

If the Sox suck again next year, it won't be because of Robin Ventura. It'll be because they didn't get a real 3B or catcher, or because they gave LaRoche/Garcia another 500 PA each.

 

If the Sox make coaching changes, fine. But we should stop treating the status of the manager like it's an actual bellwether for our team's performance. It's symbolic, at best.

[flavum]

The point is "who cares"? I'm not saying that any of them deserve an extension or to be fired or whatever, but just that none of it will actually solve anything.

 

If the Sox suck again next year, it won't be because of Robin Ventura. It'll be because they didn't get a real 3B or catcher, or because they gave LaRoche/Garcia another 500 PA each.

 

If the Sox make coaching changes, fine. But we should stop treating the status of the manager like it's an actual bellwether for our team's performance. It's symbolic, at best.

 

Not denying that in a vacuum it's hard to quantify what a manager brings. But when you take everything into consideration from the lack of experience when he was hired, and sloppy, under-performing teams over the last few years, the right baseball move would have to make a change. And it has nothing to do with appeasing fans. 29 other teams probably would have made a change today because that's how it goes.