ChiSox59 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:28 PM) Apparently that's a severe underpayment by the Dodgers. You guys are also right, I shouldn't compare Santana with Sale because Santana was by far the best pitcher in baseball at the time of the trade and of his generation. Do controllable years and $$ mean nothing to you? Because it would seem that way from your "analysis". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:33 PM) But he hasn't been. None of it matters unless he's kicked from the league. The incident happened 1 week ago. Of course he hasn't been yet. For *right now*, he should be viewed as having the plague; if you trade for him he could infect your team. If we had a 2 month investigation first and knew what the results were, fine, but the winter meetings are happening now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:28 PM) Apparently that's a severe underpayment by the Dodgers. You guys are also right, I shouldn't compare Santana with Sale because Santana was by far the best pitcher in baseball at the time of the trade and of his generation. You are funny. But the Twins did get Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber and some filler for him. Sure makes me think the Sox need to trade Sale ASAP for a similar package since he probably isn't the greatest pitcher of his generation, although he would be pitching for about half the money Santana pitched for four seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (Wanne @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:27 PM) Aaaaand not having a 19-3 Greinke in the rotation means nothing? That rotation (sans Kershaw) isn't all that great. Don't be shocked with what they'd give up for a pitcher like Sale...not to mention the contract that he has. To sit there and definitively say "ain't happening" really is condescending since you're not part of the Dodgers ownership group. Don't underestimate what SF moves would make them do either... You're asking a baseball team to give up the 3 of the top ten prospects in all of baseball who are as young and cost controlled for not the #1 pitcher in baseball. No one has been able to cite an example of when a team came even close to doing that when asked. They want to say he's under a bargain deal. So is Felix Hernandez, so is Jose Fernandez. I doubt Florida even asks for that type of haul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:36 PM) You're asking a baseball team to give up the 3 of the top ten prospects in all of baseball who are as young and cost controlled for not the #1 pitcher in baseball. No one has been able to cite an example of when a team came even close to doing that when asked. They want to say he's under a bargain deal. So is Felix Hernandez, so is Jose Fernandez. I doubt Florida even asks for that type of haul. But no team has cited an example of a guy being traded to rebuild a weak roster *That* far before free agency either, right? Such that the package should be unprecedented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:36 PM) You are funny. But the Twins did get Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber and some filler for him. Sure makes me think the Sox need to trade Sale ASAP for a similar package since he probably isn't the greatest pitcher of his generation, although he would be pitching for about half the money Santana pitched for four seasons. Two prospects and filler. You guys are demanding at least three. And I didn't say its a necessity to trade Sale now. But if you don't plan on buying a bunch of players you should trade him for teams thirsty for SP if you can get 2 or 3 for sure starters back. If you plan on competing next year, be my guest and keep him. What I don't want is a situation which Seattle has with Felix Hernandez. Wasting his career away and years of competing away because you don't feel market value is not market value - to simply prove a point in other words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asindc Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:28 PM) Apparently that's a severe underpayment by the Dodgers. You guys are also right, I shouldn't compare Santana with Sale because Santana was by far the best pitcher in baseball at the time of the trade and of his generation. Contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:36 PM) You're asking a baseball team to give up the 3 of the top ten prospects in all of baseball who are as young and cost controlled for not the #1 pitcher in baseball. No one has been able to cite an example of when a team came even close to doing that when asked. They want to say he's under a bargain deal. So is Felix Hernandez, so is Jose Fernandez. I doubt Florida even asks for that type of haul. That's because right now, amidst exploding pitching contracts, Sale is being paid the same amount over four years almost equal to Price and Greinke for one year, but is in that class of pitcher. Thr reason an example can't be cited is because any deal for Sale is pretty much going to be unprecedented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:35 PM) The incident happened 1 week ago. Of course he hasn't been yet. For *right now*, he should be viewed as having the plague; if you trade for him he could infect your team. If we had a 2 month investigation first and knew what the results were, fine, but the winter meetings are happening now. I frankly haven't looked into the situation much, but didn't Puig like push his sister? Its not like he cold clocked his GF in an elevator and dragged her across the floor knocked out or anything... Not saying he is a good guy. I've had very minimal interest in Puig since people started pushing for him this past Summer, but from the little I have heard of the situation, it doesn't seem quite fair to convict him a woman beater yet. That said, there may be more to the story that I haven't heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:39 PM) Two prospects and filler. You guys are demanding at least three. And I didn't say its a necessity to trade Sale now. But if you don't plan on buying a bunch of players you should trade him for teams thirsty for SP if you can get 2 or 3 for sure starters back. If you plan on competing next year, be my guest and keep him. What I don't want is a situation which Seattle has with Felix Hernandez. Wasting his career away and years of competing away because you don't feel market value is not market value - to simply prove a point in other words. The guys the Twins got for Santana did not help them win games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:42 PM) I frankly haven't looked into the situation much, but didn't Puig like push his sister? Its not like he cold clocked his GF in an elevator and dragged her across the floor knocked out or anything... Not saying he is a good guy. I've had very minimal interest in Puig since people started pushing for him this past Summer, but from the little I have heard of the situation, it doesn't seem quite fair to convict him a woman beater yet. That said, there may be more to the story that I haven't heard. And that's why you should steer clear of him. Don't do something stupid then get caught standing when the music stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:42 PM) I frankly haven't looked into the situation much, but didn't Puig like push his sister? Its not like he cold clocked his GF in an elevator and dragged her across the floor knocked out or anything... Not saying he is a good guy. I've had very minimal interest in Puig since people started pushing for him this past Summer, but from the little I have heard of the situation, it doesn't seem quite fair to convict him a woman beater yet. That said, there may be more to the story that I haven't heard. He supposedly shoved her and won't be charged. It that is enough for me, and I really would have loved the Sox to get him, to say pass. What is next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:52 PM) He supposedly shoved her and won't be charged. It that is enough for me, and I really would have loved the Sox to get him, to say pass. What is next? He does not need to be charged for the Commish to decide to discipline based on their now-in-force policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:36 PM) You're asking a baseball team to give up the 3 of the top ten prospects in all of baseball who are as young and cost controlled for not the #1 pitcher in baseball. No one has been able to cite an example of when a team came even close to doing that when asked. They want to say he's under a bargain deal. So is Felix Hernandez, so is Jose Fernandez. I doubt Florida even asks for that type of haul. Which is why it won't happen. There are very few teams in baseball capable of acquiring Chris Sale and the teams that could wouldn't be willing to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 05:28 PM) Apparently that's a severe underpayment by the Dodgers. You guys are also right, I shouldn't compare Santana with Sale because Santana was by far the best pitcher in baseball at the time of the trade and of his generation. Sale's value right now >>>>> Santana's value in 2008, I don't know why you keep thinking the packages should be similar. Three extra years means two extra great prospects compared to Santana, at a minimum. Edited December 6, 2015 by OmarComing25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitetrain8601 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 07:04 PM) Sale's value right now >>>>> Santana's value in 2008, I don't know why you keep thinking the packages should be similar. Three extra years means two extra great prospects compared to Santana, at a minimum. Santana's value was higher than Sale's. The difference is going to be contracts. The argument is that his contract is worth at least a 3rd top 10 prospect in baseball. I'm arguing it's really not. Santana was already the sure fire best pitcher in baseball and best of his generation at the time. It's the equivalent of Clayton Kershaw being traded by the Dodgers right now. There's nothing that says his contract is worth 2 extra great prospects. That's ludicrous. Edited December 6, 2015 by nitetrain8601 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:22 PM) Santana's value was higher than Sale's. The difference is going to be contracts. The argument is that his contract is worth at least a 3rd top 10 prospect in baseball. I'm arguing it's really not. Santana was already the sure fire best pitcher in baseball and best of his generation at the time. It's the equivalent of Clayton Kershaw being traded by the Dodgers right now. The extra years of team control and the price of very similar production outweigh the fact that Santana was considered the best in baseball at the time IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 07:22 PM) Santana's value was higher than Sale's. The difference is going to be contracts. The argument is that his contract is worth at least a 3rd top 10 prospect in baseball. I'm arguing it's really not. Santana was already the sure fire best pitcher in baseball and best of his generation at the time. It's the equivalent of Clayton Kershaw being traded by the Dodgers right now. There's nothing that says his contract is worth 2 extra great prospects. That's ludicrous. I know it's not the end-all be-all, but it's an easy stat to check so I checked it. In the year before he was traded, Santana was worth 4.0 fWAR. Last year Sale was worth 6.2. In the 2 years before he was traded, Santana was worth 10.7 fWAR. In the last 2, Sale's been worth 11.4. Santana may already have been the best pitcher of his time, but he also was noticeably trending down. More HR, fewer GB, fewer innings, ERA jumped by more than 1/2 a run. Based solely on performance in the year or two before the trade...it's very close to a wash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:29 PM) I know it's not the end-all be-all, but it's an easy stat to check so I checked it. In the year before he was traded, Santana was worth 4.0 fWAR. Last year Sale was worth 6.2. In the 2 years before he was traded, Santana was worth 10.7 fWAR. In the last 2, Sale's been worth 11.4. Santana may already have been the best pitcher of his time, but he also was noticeably trending down. More HR, fewer GB, fewer innings, ERA jumped by more than 1/2 a run. Based solely on performance in the year or two before the trade...it's very close to a wash. Santana > Sale though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:22 PM) Santana's value was higher than Sale's. The difference is going to be contracts. The argument is that his contract is worth at least a 3rd top 10 prospect in baseball. I'm arguing it's really not. Santana was already the sure fire best pitcher in baseball and best of his generation at the time. It's the equivalent of Clayton Kershaw being traded by the Dodgers right now. There's nothing that says his contract is worth 2 extra great prospects. That's ludicrous. You're wrong. Sale and Santana is basically a wash in terms of performance. I still don't know why you continue to disregard money and years of control, it's at least 50% of a player's value. It's why Sale is currently a lot more valuable than Kershaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Sale is younger and has a better contract than Santana. Similar performance. Trade did not work at all for MIN. Supports the case for NOT trading Sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 06:22 PM) Santana's value was higher than Sale's. The difference is going to be contracts. The argument is that his contract is worth at least a 3rd top 10 prospect in baseball. I'm arguing it's really not. Santana was already the sure fire best pitcher in baseball and best of his generation at the time. It's the equivalent of Clayton Kershaw being traded by the Dodgers right now. There's nothing that says his contract is worth 2 extra great prospects. That's ludicrous. Your logic is ludicrous. And wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFutureIsNear Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Can we just go back to the more logical move of trading Q? My newest proposal is with the Astros Q for Preston Tucker, Michael Feliz, JD Davis, and Derek Fisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxFanMike Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 08:21 PM) Can we just go back to the more logical move of trading Q? My newest proposal is with the Astros Q for Preston Tucker, Michael Feliz, JD Davis, and Derek Fisher What positions do Davis and Fisher play? I know Tucker is an outfielder and Feliz is a pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFutureIsNear Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Dec 5, 2015 -> 09:25 PM) What positions do Davis and Fisher play? I know Tucker is an outfielder and Feliz is a pitcher. JD Davis is a 3B. '14 3rd round pick and hit .289/.370/.520 in High A last year Derek Fisher is an outfielder as well. Sandwich pick in the same '14 draft. Also advanced to High A last year and has a .283/.369/.468 so far in the minors with 48 steals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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