Why NOT trade Chris Sale?

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

JD Davis is a 3B. '14 3rd round pick and hit .289/.370/.520 in High A last year

Derek Fisher is an outfielder as well. Sandwich pick in the same '14 draft. Also advanced to High A last year and has a .283/.369/.468 so far in the minors with 48 steals

Thanks.

 

If Q or Sale are traded, I'd like a catcher and a third baseman at the very least since those are definitely positions of need for the Sox.

[BlackSox13]

Can we just go back to the more logical move of trading Q? My newest proposal is with the Astros

 

Q for Preston Tucker, Michael Feliz, JD Davis, and Derek Fisher

I'm not trying to be a s*** but this is a thread about Sale and whether or not he should/could be traded.

 

I'm pretty sure there's a thread about Q somewhere.

 

Just hate to see stuff get all mixed is all.

[BlackSox13]

Q thread

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...90&start=90

 

[greg775]

Here's why you don't trade Sale and just let him walk when it's time for free agency since Sox will never try to sign him then ...

No contender (big money organization) is going to part with current big leaguers in a trade for Sale. We will get 3-5 minor league stars for him. Problem is all those minor leaguers could be busts. Think of all the minor league sensations who have flopped. We could get 2-3 first rounders and 2-3 second rounders in a five for one for Sale and all five could be busts.

 

You keep Sale until it's time for the Red Sox to sign him to a seven year 350 million dollar deal. That's where this will be heading for guys like Sale in a couple years. 50 mill a year will be the going rate. It's only escalating.

 

Keep him til he leaves. Minor leaguers blow.

[GreenSox]

You keep Sale until it's time for the Red Sox to sign him to a seven year 350 million dollar deal. That's where this will be heading for guys like Sale in a couple years. 50 mill a year will be the going rate. It's only escalating.

 

Keep him til he leaves. Minor leaguers blow.

That's why you draft pitcher, like the Sox do. So you can groom replacements. Draft enough of them, you'll get the replacements.

 

Speaking of blowing, that's what this team does for the foreseeable future, as constructed.

[asindc]

That's why you draft pitcher, like the Sox do. So you can groom replacements. Draft enough of them, you'll get the replacements.

 

Speaking of blowing, that's what this team does for the foreseeable future, as constructed.

 

And that drafted pitcher could suck. Meanwhile, you've traded away a cost-comtrolled, young, in his prime, top ace who has already proven himself for a... maybe. No thank you.

 

[BlackSox13]

And that drafted pitcher could suck. Meanwhile, you've traded away a cost-comtrolled, young, in his prime, top ace who has already proven himself for a... maybe. No thank you.

Pretty sure GreenSox is referring to the idea of continuing to draft pitching to replace the current pitchers when they become free agents and insanely expensive. Two examples of this would be Erik Johnson coming up next season to replace Samardzija and in '17 (hopefully) Carson Fulmer coming up to replace Danks when Danks becomes a FA after the '16 season.

 

Imo, the annual cost of pitching is why the Sox continue to draft pitchers and after seeing the market explode so far this winter I'd say it's a good strategy. Playing 81 games a year at the hitter friendly Cell helps with that too.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I'm not trying to be a s*** but this is a thread about Sale and whether or not he should/could be traded.

 

I'm pretty sure there's a thread about Q somewhere.

 

Just hate to see stuff get all mixed is all.

Amen

[Bigsoxhurt35]

The reason I'm ok with moving Sale, for the right package, is because this team can draft and develop pitching. I don't see some team ponying up for him though. It'd be a lot to give up for him. Sale will be our King Felix. Always bantered about but never dealt.

[BlackSox13]

I remember a few of us were discussing Sale's perpetual value last winter and it was agreed that a trade involving Sale would be unprecedented due to his performance/contract. That perpetual value is even higher now as has been highlighted the last few pages. These new contracts make Sale and his contract obscenely valuable to the point it's hard to imagine what his true value is. In the end, Sale's true value lies within the eyes of the Sox FO because its them that would decide on saying yes or no to a trade offer from another team. For a team like the Sox that doesn't have Boston/Yankee/Dodger type payrolls, a contract like Sale's is so team friendly that it raises Sale's value in the eyes of the FO because its cheap contracts like Sale and Q that help allow the Sox to spend elsewhere. If the Sox had to hit the FA market to try and replace the values of Sale and Q, it would easily cost them 50-60M per year for the two combined. In '16 Sale and Q will cost a mere 14.5M combined! That value is literally irreplaceable and why I'm so keen on keeping them both through the end of their contracts, unless of course some team makes the Sox FO an offer they would be stupid to refuse.

[LDF]

The reason I'm ok with moving Sale, for the right package, is because this team can draft and develop pitching. I don't see some team ponying up for him though. It'd be a lot to give up for him. Sale will be our King Felix. Always bantered about but never dealt.

 

remember we are here talking about a true #1 sp, an elite #1 sp. those you do not draft in the low teens.... the sox and sale and where the sox pick him was all b/c of question on his delivery.

 

in other words, the sox got lucky.

[ewokpelts]

Because he's worth 200-300 million in the open market. Any team that trades for his team friendly deal(69 million maxvalue for life of contract which eats two non-arb years) saves a boatload of money for an ace.

 

[LDF]

That's why you draft pitcher, like the Sox do. So you can groom replacements. Draft enough of them, you'll get the replacements.

 

Speaking of blowing, that's what this team does for the foreseeable future, as constructed.

 

but not a front end sp a true #1 sp.

[LDF]

Pretty sure GreenSox is referring to the idea of continuing to draft pitching to replace the current pitchers when they become free agents and insanely expensive. Two examples of this would be Erik Johnson coming up next season to replace Samardzija and in '17 (hopefully) Carson Fulmer coming up to replace Danks when Danks becomes a FA after the '16 season.

 

Imo, the annual cost of pitching is why the Sox continue to draft pitchers and after seeing the market explode so far this winter I'd say it's a good strategy. Playing 81 games a year at the hitter friendly Cell helps with that too.

 

a good point on the philosophy of drafting pitchers.

 

nice pov.

[Dam8610]

The question is in the title. Why should they keep him? Why should they not? You know where I lean, but as an economist, that always garners an "it depends."

 

I'm drunk and bored and want to light a fire. I like chaos.

 

But seriously..why not? I've been away. Talk to me goose.

 

 

Economist, huh? Well, the team's production curve would recede without him and the law of diminishing returns makes it unlikely that the value they'd receive in a trade would be enough to replace his value.

[TheFutureIsNear]

A lot of you seem more worried about a perceived value than winning. This franchise has next to 0 position player talent and it isn't going to just appear out of nowhere. If anyone has a legit plan to make us a contender now and into the future that doesn't involve trading 1 of sale/Q or expanding the pay roll past $120M id love to see it. Because I've yet to see 1 yet.

[Dick Allen]

A lot of you seem more worried about a perceived value than winning. This franchise has next to 0 position player talent and it isn't going to just appear out of nowhere. If anyone has a legit plan to make us a contender now and into the future that doesn't involve trading 1 of sale/Q or expanding the pay roll past $120M id love to see it. Because I've yet to see 1 yet.

The great thing about posting trade, draft, and other signing ideas on a message board, is when your idea would work out, there is proof forever that you had or supported that idea. But what is even better is your bad ideas just go away like they never posted. In reality, you are stuck with your bad trade or bad signing or bad draft pick, or other bad idea if you where to do this for real.

 

It is easy to say the White Sox will never be good, I also remember the mid 80s when people were saying you couldn't win NBA titles with the leading scorer in the league, that MJ didn't make his teammates better, and if the Bulls were serious about winning titles, trading a guy who it would have been impossible to get full value for, was the thing to do. No way is Chris Sale the baseball equivalent to MJ, but people here who want to trade him are doing so just for change sake not for team improvement sake. Once he is gone he is gone and if the prospects aren't as good as he was, you are in worse shape. I think if they were to deal in the reality of it all, the opinion of Sale needs to go by some would go away.

 

If you go by Price and Greinke, teams in the open market would be willing to pay Sale about $20 million a year more the next 4 years than his contract calls for. How many players can you say that about? He is underpaid vs. the open market the next 4 years more money than what has been guaranteed in the biggest contract the White Sox have ever agreed.

 

Expanding the payroll past $120 million seems a reasonable plan to get the team better. I don't know what the fascination is with some people of a $40 million payroll.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Dick Allen

[GreenSox]

but not a front end sp a true #1 sp.

That's how we got Sale. Through the draft. Rodon may turn out to be one as well. KC won a WS with nothing close to an Ace. But they had a pen, depth, and no holes.

Seattle has had an ace for years, and hasn't come close to the playoffs.

 

As for Santana, yes the Twins prospects didn't turn out to be much; of course Santana declined the second he went to NY as well. He was still good with the Mets for a while, but not an ace.

[Dick Allen]

That's how we got Sale. Through the draft. Rodon may turn out to be one as well. KC won a WS with nothing close to an Ace. But they had a pen, depth, and no holes.

Seattle has had an ace for years, and hasn't come close to the playoffs.

 

As for Santana, yes the Twins prospects didn't turn out to be much; of course Santana declined the second he went to NY as well. He was still good with the Mets for a while, but not an ace.

I guess it depends on your definition of close but Seattle missed the playoffs by 1 game in 2014.

[GreenSox]

I guess it depends on your definition of close but Seattle missed the playoffs by 1 game in 2014.

You're right they did.

But, in general, they haven't contended much.

 

But you could use them as the anti-trade example too. They traded Fister and received Caspar the Friendly Ghost.

[Dick Allen]

You're right they did.

But, in general, they haven't contended much.

 

But you could use them as the anti-trade example too. They traded Fister and received Caspar the Friendly Ghost.

Fister wasn't an ace but that was a bad trade. Teams hold on to their aces. When was the last time an ace was traded before he was nearing free agency? Or had 4 years remaining on a contract that pays him 1/3 of what teams would pay him. And on top of that, has $1 million buyouts the last 2 seasons in case of injury?

 

When you put all this together, the unprecedented package requirement makes a ton of sense because you would be trading away an unprecedented package.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Fister wasn't an ace but that was a bad trade. Teams hold on to their aces. When was the last time an ace was traded before he was nearing free agency? Or had 4 years remaining on a contract that pays him 1/3 of what teams would pay him. And on top of that, has $1 million buyouts the last 2 seasons in case of injury?

 

When you put all this together, the unprecedented package requirement makes a ton of sense because you would be trading away an unprecedented package.

That's why I posted my package but apparently I was on crack...

[LDF]

The great thing about posting trade, draft, and other signing ideas on a message board, is when your idea would work out, there is proof forever that you had or supported that idea. But what is even better is your bad ideas just go away like they never posted. In reality, you are stuck with your bad trade or bad signing or bad draft pick, or other bad idea if you where to do this for real.

 

It is easy to say the White Sox will never be good, I also remember the mid 80s when people were saying you couldn't win NBA titles with the leading scorer in the league, that MJ didn't make his teammates better, and if the Bulls were serious about winning titles, trading a guy who it would have been impossible to get full value for, was the thing to do. No way is Chris Sale the baseball equivalent to MJ, but people here who want to trade him are doing so just for change sake not for team improvement sake. Once he is gone he is gone and if the prospects aren't as good as he was, you are in worse shape. I think if they were to deal in the reality of it all, the opinion of Sale needs to go by some would go away.

 

If you go by Price and Greinke, teams in the open market would be willing to pay Sale about $20 million a year more the next 4 years than his contract calls for. How many players can you say that about? He is underpaid vs. the open market the next 4 years more money than what has been guaranteed in the biggest contract the White Sox have ever agreed.

 

Expanding the payroll past $120 million seems a reasonable plan to get the team better. I don't know what the fascination is with some people of a $40 million payroll.

 

you are making an assumption right here ref bold. the main thing is to recognize the value of the rtn, what is everybody expecting as a rtn, good superstar value on the same page as sale??? or is the FO looking for avg to above avg players to fix a hole and hold their own as an everyday player??

[Dick Allen]

you are making an assumption right here ref bold. the main thing is to recognize the value of the rtn, what is everybody expecting as a rtn, good superstar value on the same page as sale??? or is the FO looking for avg to above avg players to fix a hole and hold their own as an everyday player??

that is point. Anyone thinking some of the asks on here are crazy, I think that is wrong. It is exactly what it would take. You can't take maybes for Chris Sale. Once he is gone, he is gone, and to get someone near him back, it costs $200 million.

[LDF]

That's how we got Sale. Through the draft. Rodon may turn out to be one as well. KC won a WS with nothing close to an Ace. But they had a pen, depth, and no holes.

Seattle has had an ace for years, and hasn't come close to the playoffs.

 

As for Santana, yes the Twins prospects didn't turn out to be much; of course Santana declined the second he went to NY as well. He was still good with the Mets for a while, but not an ace.

 

remember i said, a team will not get a front end, if they didn't pick in a low teens, i stand somewhat corrected b/c sale was selected #13 in his draft and partly b/c of concerns of his delivery. here is the post i posted ....

 

now teams get lucky but i rather have that high selection to better the odds of the pitcher.

 

remember we are here talking about a true #1 sp, an elite #1 sp. those you do not draft in the low teens.... the sox and sale and where the sox pick him was all b/c of question on his delivery.

 

in other words, the sox got lucky.