What are Sox good at? Bad at?

[VAfan]

What do the Sox do well?

 

1. Draft pitchers. Sale, Rodon, Fullmer (jury still out, but looking good).

2. Find pitchers. Quintana, Jones, Danks (when we got him originally).

3. Tap the Cuban players. Alexei, Abreu, Contreras before them. Viciedo was a failure though.

4. Sign some players to very team friendly contracts. Sale, Quintana, Abreu, even Eaton.

 

What do the Sox not do so well?

 

1. Develop hitters. When was the last one?

2. Pick managers. Ozzie was the only success, and his was short lived.

3. Find players who have strong on-base percentages, and put the ball in play.

4. Run the bases well.

5. Play good defense.

6. Pick free agents. Most of the recent signings have either barely returned value, or been horrible choices.

7. Hit for power. Used to be a strength of the team. Looks like we've completely lost our way.

 

When you look back at the 2005 team and how that team was put together, the Sox did a good job of tapping a variety of sources for their players. They had drafted players like Mark Buehrle, Frank Thomas (though he was hurt that year), Joe Crede, Aaron Rowand. They brought in Paul Konerko via trade when he was young. On the 2004 team they also had Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez. They let Maggs walk, then traded Lee for Podsednik and Vizcaino. They signed mid-level free agents like Iguchi, and pulled Jermaine Dye off the scrap heap to replace Maggs. Uribe was acquired via trade by giving up Aaron Miles, who the Sox had taken out of the Rule V draft. They traded Loaiza, who was a scrap heap free agent signing to Jose Contreras, who took the front of the rotation in the second half and was a horse. They added Jon Garland and Freddie Garcia via trade. Their bullpen was also put together on the fly, with Bobby Jenks a reclamation project who had a drinking problem that they stole from the Angels.

 

It seems to me that the Sox have lost their way. They are doing very well at assembling a young, front line pitching staff, and getting them under team-friendly long term deals. Beyond that, they made a very good deal in signing Abreu from Cuba, and trading for Adam Eaton. But that's it. The Cabrera and Robertson signings have brought in good players, but not at a bargain. The LaRoche deal, like the Dunn deal before it, is a disaster. And the team seems to have no sense of what type of player they want or need, other than on the pitching side. And even there, the experiment with Shark blew up in their faces.

 

I guess this is just a way of agreeing with many of the posters here who say it all starts in the front office. KW did put together a Sox team that won the world series, all the way from picking the manager to acquiring all the players, using a variety of sources pretty well. But whatever magic he once had is now apparently gone, and Mr. Hahn either doesn't have the chops, or the control, to make things work. For example, he didn't hire Ventura, KW did. And KW looking over his shoulder is something KW didn't have to deal with when he was GM.

 

For the Sox to get back on track, it's got to start at the top.

[Lip Man 1]

Good analysis in my opinion.

 

It starts and ends with ownership / management as in most businesses. The Sox ownership / management is stale, set in their ways, have a collective 'group-think' at problems because so many people have been together for so long.

 

It's not working and yet they refuse to make the important changes that are desperately needed. It's not change for changes sake now in my opinion. With the Cubs 'success'' (notice I put that in quotes) and the probability of them starting their own network in 2020, it's now change for survival with the White Sox.

 

But given the ages and net worth of the Board of Directors, it's hard to see them or JR wanting to rock the boat.

 

The Sox are in a bad, bad place right now.

 

Mark

Edited October 6, 2015 by Lip Man 1

[NorthSideSox72]

I'd like to note a few things on the development side, that are worth keeping in mind...

 

1. The draft tactics have changed, pretty substantially, in part because of increased voices from people who aren't Sox lifers. They got away from the piling on "safe" picks with a few football players thrown in, and are generally drafting higher ceiling talent. This has been going on for a few years now, and the farm system in the lower levels is starting to show signs of that improvement.

 

2. The team's international (primarily LatAm) pipeline was basically empty until around 2011, but starting in 2012 they have dramatically increased spending there and really opened up the talent pool. You are starting to see some of those players in the state-side minors now.

 

3. While the team has generally been really, really bad at developing hitters, let's remember that this year's full time 2B's (Johnson, Sanchez) were developed internally, as were Thompson (who is looking like a major leaguer in some capacity) and Saladino (who looks like a competent utility man). Those aren't huge steps, but they are steps compared to the past... oh... decade. That doesn't include Semien (who is a starting SS, though he should really be a 2B) or Phegley (who is a competent platoon bat, albeit with poor defense) who are with Oakland.

 

Not that everything is rosy, but development-wise things have absolutely been changing. And generally for the better. Unfortunately, it may take another 2-3 years before we really start seeing the MLB expression of full value from those changes.

 

[caulfield12]

Yeah, but for every Nick Hostetler or Marco Paddy, there's still KW or Buddy Bell to cancel all of that out.

 

The biggest impact talent of the early bunch, Adolfo, isn't on a pace to even make a dent in the majors (assuming injuries or non-performance don't get him) before the new tv contract negotiations in 2019.

 

They also have stayed within the parameters on intl. signings, unlike many of the big market clubs like the Cubs, Red Sox and Dodgers who have been scooping up the most talent.

 

Finally, Courtney Hawkins and Tyler Danish sank quite a bit as prospects. That has hurt, as well.

Edited October 6, 2015 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, but for every Nick Hostetler or Marco Paddy, there's still KW or Buddy Bell to cancel all of that out.

 

The biggest impact talent of the early bunch, Adolfo, isn't on a pace to even make a dent in the majors (assuming injuries or non-performance don't get him) before the new tv contract negotiations in 2019.

 

They also have stayed within the parameters on intl. signings, unlike many of the big market clubs like the Cubs, Red Sox and Dodgers who have been scooping up the most talent.

 

Finally, Courtney Hawkins and Tyler Danish sank quite a bit as prospects. That has hurt, as well.

 

At the beginning of 2019, Adolfo will be 22 years old. If he hasn't "made an impact" so what?

[GGajewski18]

Yeah, but for every Nick Hostetler or Marco Paddy, there's still KW or Buddy Bell to cancel all of that out.

 

The biggest impact talent of the early bunch, Adolfo, isn't on a pace to even make a dent in the majors (assuming injuries or non-performance don't get him) before the new tv contract negotiations in 2019.

 

They also have stayed within the parameters on intl. signings, unlike many of the big market clubs like the Cubs, Red Sox and Dodgers who have been scooping up the most talent.

 

Finally, Courtney Hawkins and Tyler Danish sank quite a bit as prospects. That has hurt, as well.

 

I wouldn't say Danish sank "quite a bit". Certainly took a hit, but he was the youngest player in that league at 20/21. Room to grow.

[NorthSideSox72]

Yeah, but for every Nick Hostetler or Marco Paddy, there's still KW or Buddy Bell to cancel all of that out.

 

The biggest impact talent of the early bunch, Adolfo, isn't on a pace to even make a dent in the majors (assuming injuries or non-performance don't get him) before the new tv contract negotiations in 2019.

 

They also have stayed within the parameters on intl. signings, unlike many of the big market clubs like the Cubs, Red Sox and Dodgers who have been scooping up the most talent.

 

Finally, Courtney Hawkins and Tyler Danish sank quite a bit as prospects. That has hurt, as well.

While most of the above is true, the bolded isn't, at least not in entirety. Hawkins did basically what you'd think he would in AA at his stage of development, maybe even a little better (though he missed some time to injury). So he's about where he was a year ago (though that is below where he was when drafted, if that is what you mean). Danish, again, did what you'd expect in AA as the youngest pitcher in his league without an overpowering fastball. He's pretty much on track. Both will repeat AA.

 

There are plenty of prospects who fell hard the last year or so, neither of them are on that list.

 

[southsider2k5]

While most of the above is true, the bolded isn't, at least not in entirety. Hawkins did basically what you'd think he would in AA at his stage of development, maybe even a little better (though he missed some time to injury). So he's about where he was a year ago (though that is below where he was when drafted, if that is what you mean). Danish, again, did what you'd expect in AA as the youngest pitcher in his league without an overpowering fastball. He's pretty much on track. Both will repeat AA.

 

There are plenty of prospects who fell hard the last year or so, neither of them are on that list.

 

And for guys like Hawkins who sunk, you have guys like thompson and Saladino who emerged and contributed unexpectedly.

[LDF]

I'd like to note a few things on the development side, that are worth keeping in mind...

 

1. The draft tactics have changed, pretty substantially, in part because of increased voices from people who aren't Sox lifers. They got away from the piling on "safe" picks with a few football players thrown in, and are generally drafting higher ceiling talent. This has been going on for a few years now, and the farm system in the lower levels is starting to show signs of that improvement.

 

2. The team's international (primarily LatAm) pipeline was basically empty until around 2011, but starting in 2012 they have dramatically increased spending there and really opened up the talent pool. You are starting to see some of those players in the state-side minors now.

 

3. While the team has generally been really, really bad at developing hitters, let's remember that this year's full time 2B's (Johnson, Sanchez) were developed internally, as were Thompson (who is looking like a major leaguer in some capacity) and Saladino (who looks like a competent utility man). Those aren't huge steps, but they are steps compared to the past... oh... decade. That doesn't include Semien (who is a starting SS, though he should really be a 2B) or Phegley (who is a competent platoon bat, albeit with poor defense) who are with Oakland.

 

Not that everything is rosy, but development-wise things have absolutely been changing. And generally for the better. Unfortunately, it may take another 2-3 years before we really start seeing the MLB expression of full value from those changes.

 

excellent

 

the biggest change is the first part. the main tactics or to put it in other terms, their approach in everything in baseball.

[VAfan]

The development side is obviously critical.

 

First, you need players to come up, or at least be tradeable for similar players who are under control and keep the payroll down.

 

Second, if you have a solid enough core, you need enough depth to be able to trade for pieces you might need to get you over the top, when you are ready.

 

Take the debate over trading Quintana for a bat. This makes no sense to me, because you are opening a big hole in your pitching staff for several years to try to close one on the hitting side. If he was part of a deal for Todd Frazier, you'd be giving up a better player, under longer control, for one who's unproven in the AL and on how he might fit on your team. Seems crazy.

 

Much better to trade "prospects" who are not yet producing for you for that bat you need. This can weaken your future, but gains much faster in the present. You have to have enough talent coming up to be able to do this without killing you in the long run.

 

The trick is not making these kinds of deals too early. If you really aren't ready to compete, you just add expensive short-term assets who get you nowhere while weakening the longer term prospects of the club.

 

Personally, I was for the Sox going for it in 2015. On paper, it seemed like a club that could compete. But pretty much everything went wrong, except for the development of Carlos Rodon. And now the Sox are burdened by a bad contract for Adam LaRoche, and don't have the resources to add much new talent.

 

With Ventura back as manager, my new take is to do nothing for 2016. Keep all your draft picks. See if you can develop a second baseman at least. See if Trayce Thompson can be more than a 4th outfielder. Get beyond LaRoche's and Danks' contracts. See what Erik Johnson has as a starter. Keep pushing the other prospects closer to the majors.

 

If you had unlimited money, you could sign Heyward, or Cespedes, and trade for Todd Frazier. Sign a free agent starter. And go for it. I just don't see that happening. And I'd rather spend another year with a bad manager developing than "going for it" and falling on our faces again.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Yeah, but for every Nick Hostetler or Marco Paddy, there's still KW or Buddy Bell to cancel all of that out.

 

The biggest impact talent of the early bunch, Adolfo, isn't on a pace to even make a dent in the majors (assuming injuries or non-performance don't get him) before the new tv contract negotiations in 2019.

 

They also have stayed within the parameters on intl. signings, unlike many of the big market clubs like the Cubs, Red Sox and Dodgers who have been scooping up the most talent.

 

Finally, Courtney Hawkins and Tyler Danish sank quite a bit as prospects. That has hurt, as well.

 

This is something I pointed out in another post in regards to the Sox staying within the league rules for international talent. Management has only shown that they are good at mitigating risk and turning a profit.

 

This is what I call the "middling approach" , never doing much of anything besides going after middling talent whether it's on the field talent or management or scouting talent.

 

This kind of approach will never allow the Sox to compete for the high priced ,young international talent because they play within the rules set up by the league and won't risk spending the money on the talent that other teams are willing to do. Risk means possible chaos to the bottom line and that's just not JR's way of doing business.

 

Call it what you will but it's always the safe approach no matter what his mouthpieces say about building a consistent winner. His approach safeguards profits .

[caulfield12]

Other than Abreu, Viciedo, Borchard, Micker Adolfo Zapata and going about $800,000 over on Rodon, they've largely been risk-averse.

 

Dunn, Danks and LaRoche turned out to be larger risks than predicted, but after the fact.

 

That covers about 15 years, too.

Edited October 7, 2015 by caulfield12

[OmarComing25]

Other than Abreu, Viciedo, Borchard, Micker Adolfo Zapata and going about $800,000 over on Rodon, they've largely been risk-averse.

 

Dunn, Danks and LaRoche turned out to be larger risks than predicted, but after the fact.

 

That covers about 15 years, too.

I wouldn't call LaRoche a big risk, even now with hindsight. That contract was never a big risk. I'd put almost every other offseason move they made this year ahead of LaRoche in terms of risk factor.

[VAfan]

Watching Houston last night was depressing. THAT IS WHAT THE SOX SHOULD LOOK LIKE!!

 

Yooung, fast, and with tons of power! Good fielding. Strong baserunning. Everyone, including the smurf Altuve can hit the ball out.

[VAfan]

Yeah the Astros are really the new framework. Power + defense + versatility. Obviously Correa/Springer/Altuve are special talents but Valbuena, Conger, Gattis, Rasmus, Carter, Gomez have all been acquired. Gomez/Gattis came at a decent price but the others... nope.

 

You might beat the Astros, but they aren't going to beat themselves most of the time. I think that's what's so depressing about the current Sox makeup. So fundamentally bad that more often than not they are going make a mistake or mistakes that cost the ballgame.

 

Hard to believe that our club was so good in extra inning games. It's like we didn't focus in regular situations, but did when the game went to extra innings.

 

As I've said elsewhere, I put most of that on the manager.

[greg775]

The White Sox are good at ... being loyal to players and managers and front office people.

The Sox are bad at ... having a sense of urgency about anything. I really truly don't think we're gonna ever get over .500 again for an extended period until we clean house. It's always "early." No need to panic. It's too early.

Then every year we hit September and oh, yes, it's too late. September is a boring methodical funeral for the rest of the season.

 

Don't worry, folks, it's early they said after going 0-4 to open the season. Oops.

 

Give me some urgency!! We finish 10 under .500 and I sense Jerry and everybody are OK with this. Hey folks, the season sucked!

[Whitey]

Yeah the Astros are really the new framework. Power + defense + versatility. Obviously Correa/Springer/Altuve are special talents but Valbuena, Conger, Gattis, Rasmus, Carter, Gomez have all been acquired. Gomez/Gattis came at a decent price but the others... nope.

 

Same thing with the Cubs... Basically their entire pitching staff has been built on trades or free agency. Plus more than half of their lineup yesterday was as well (e.g. Rizzo, Fowler, Russel, Montero, La Stella).

 

This shows it is not just about tanking and getting high picks. The most important things are good management, scouting, and coaching. All areas where the Sox are very weak.

[GreenSox]

The Cubs got a lot from the sell-offs. But the Astros got very little from theirs. But the Astros drafted like maniacs. A ton of depth and not just from the top picks.

Both of those teams have far more major league depth than the Sox. Part of that is that they know how to utilize limited and imperfect players.

Edited October 8, 2015 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

The Cubs got a lot from the sell-offs. But the Astros got very little from theirs. But the Astros drafted like maniacs. A ton of depth and not just from the top picks.

Both of those teams have far more major league depth than the Sox. Part of that is that they know how to utilize limited and imperfect players.

 

Just imagine if Singleton, Appel, JD Martinez, Grossman, Dominguez, etc., all were successful...but they had the cushion to absorb flameouts due to their overall depth, guys like Tucker, Santana, Duffy, Gonzalez, Marisnick (great defender) and Villar.

 

What if they had drafted Bryant and Rodon instead?

 

Well, as it is, they got basically four 1st round talents this year. McHugh was like our Quintana, a no cost steal. Also doubt they're regretting Correa over Buxton at the moment.

Edited October 8, 2015 by caulfield12

[Bob Sacamano]

The White Sox are good at ... being loyal to players and managers and front office people.

The Sox are bad at ... having a sense of urgency about anything. I really truly don't think we're gonna ever get over .500 again for an extended period until we clean house. It's always "early." No need to panic. It's too early.

Then every year we hit September and oh, yes, it's too late. September is a boring methodical funeral for the rest of the season.

 

Don't worry, folks, it's early they said after going 0-4 to open the season. Oops.

 

Give me some urgency!! We finish 10 under .500 and I sense Jerry and everybody are OK with this. Hey folks, the season sucked!

 

The Sox are bad at...being loyal to their fans. As an owner, the first people you should be loyal to our your fans. You should be wanting to put the best team out on the field at all times with the best possible coaching staff.

Edited October 8, 2015 by soxfan2014

[Dick Allen]

The Sox are bad at...being loyal to their fans. As an owner, the first people you should be loyal to our your fans. You should be wanting to put the best team out on the field at all times with the best possible coaching staff.

As a partial season ticketholder, I can tell you, the Sox are very loyal to their fans. The perks for season ticketholders are as Larry David would say, "pretty, pretty, good". You get a big discount on the regular prices. You get basically 3 free parties. A pre season party with free food and drink in the ChiSox Bar and Grill. The season ticketholder party during the season, and something they started a couple of years ago, free game tickets and patio party passes to another game. When you are paying $11 a seat, these are some really nice perks. No team tries harder to sell tickets and has better deals than the White Sox. I think it would cost me more money for the same kind of package to see the Schaumburg Boomers. They send you free gifts. A couple of years ago it was an 83 jersey, last year it was a plaque sort of thing for Paulie. When they won the WS, it was a probably about a 10" high replica WS trophy. They obviously tried very hard to put a competitive team on the field, and spent the money. Sometimes it doesn't work out

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

They're good at developing pitching and horrible at everything else.

[Rooftop Shots]

Another thing that they are bad at is eating a contract when the player is proven to be sour. LaRoche has no business putting on a sox uniform next year. Ownership knows that he is an automatic out and that there is NO way that ANY fan wants to see him up at the plate ever again. BUT because of the almighty dollar, they would rather pay someone and keep him, (and adding more grief in the fans) than eating a contract that doesn't work and showing the fans "hey we blew it, but we will try and rectify it" (giving the fans some sort of REAL hope for next season.) We went through this with Dunn.....and now because of purse strings, they are going to make us bear through this with LaRoche as well. Is eating his contract the whole answer? Heck No. But at least show the fans that after this past years fiasco (and along with The Cubs being successful) that the organization will do everything within its means to get this team to the playoffs. INCLUDING eating their own pride for the mistakes. Number one priority.....give some hope for the fans and Dump LaRoche. (I sure hope that whoever goes to Sox Fest makes it emphatically known that we do not want this guy back REGARDLESS of what is owed him). In short...I would really like to see this turn into a Sox positive by seeing what kind of (real oysters) the front office has during this off season.

[Dick Allen]

Another thing that they are bad at is eating a contract when the player is proven to be sour. LaRoche has no business putting on a sox uniform next year. Ownership knows that he is an automatic out and that there is NO way that ANY fan wants to see him up at the plate ever again. BUT because of the almighty dollar, they would rather pay someone and keep him, (and adding more grief in the fans) than eating a contract that doesn't work and showing the fans "hey we blew it, but we will try and rectify it" (giving the fans some sort of REAL hope for next season.) We went through this with Dunn.....and now because of purse strings, they are going to make us bear through this with LaRoche as well. Is eating his contract the whole answer? Heck No. But at least show the fans that after this past years fiasco (and along with The Cubs being successful) that the organization will do everything within its means to get this team to the playoffs. INCLUDING eating their own pride for the mistakes. Number one priority.....give some hope for the fans and Dump LaRoche. (I sure hope that whoever goes to Sox Fest makes it emphatically known that we do not want this guy back REGARDLESS of what is owed him). In short...I would really like to see this turn into a Sox positive by seeing what kind of (real oysters) the front office has during this off season.

They just got done eating 2 years and $8.5 million of Jeff Keppinger.

[Rooftop Shots]

They just got done eating 2 years and $8.5 million of Jeff Keppinger.

 

Forgot about him. Well, with this year being a disaster, and Cubs on a real high, I feel that the Front office will have to go to extremes to win fans back. Whether they like it or not.............it Starts with eating 15 mil.