caulfield12 Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 The assumption is that with all his baggage, he will be a disaster. Yet Ozzie got veterans guys like Everett, Jenks and AJ with bad or questionable character reps to come together and make huge contributions. Whereas all of the Sox veterans since Myers/Liriano/Hudson in 2012 have performed below previous back of the baseball card levels...with a few rare exceptions like Matt Albers this year and Youk for three weeks in that season. Crain would be another positive surprise before he fell apart physically. I guess you could count Soto, but he's just a back-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 I'm all aboard the Hanley train btw, since I: 1. Live in Boston and am sick of hearing about how Hanley sucks 2. Think he will be kind of ok next year. With the bat anyways 3. Have read he is a good teammate and not the jerk everyone says he is 4. Believe the Sox should hold on to their prospects this offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 08:10 AM) The assumption is that with all his baggage, he will be a disaster. Yet Ozzie got veterans guys like Everett, Jenks and AJ with bad or questionable character reps to come together and make huge contributions. Whereas all of the Sox veterans since Myers/Liriano/Hudson in 2012 have performed below previous back of the baseball card levels...with a few rare exceptions like Matt Albers this year and Youk for three weeks in that season. Crain would be another positive surprise before he fell apart physically. I guess you could count Soto, but he's just a back-up. Not one part of this has anything to do with Hanley Ramirez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 08:18 AM) Not one part of this has anything to do with Hanley Ramirez Sure it does. Ventura hasn't had much luck getting positive performances out of veterans. Connect the dots. It's not too hard. So you have someone who has worn out his welcome 3-4 times in different places...you have the White Sox recent history and then you have uncertainty over whether Ventura can actually help to maximize the performance of those players. Either Hahn really sucks identifying the right players or Ventura can't get them to play. Harbaugh has turned around Hoke's program in less than six months. Somehow, there has to be some positive impact from having a good manager outside the NFL and NBA. Would the Cubs be in this same exact position without Maddon? Edited October 11, 2015 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 09:52 AM) Sure it does. Ventura hasn't had much luck getting positive performances out of veterans. Connect the dots. It's not too hard. So you have someone who has worn out his welcome 3-4 times in different places...you have the White Sox recent history and then you have uncertainty over whether Ventura can actually help to maximize the performance of those players. Either Hahn really sucks identifying the right players or Ventura can't get them to play. Harbaugh has turned around Hoke's program in less than six months. Somehow, there has to be some positive impact from having a good manager outside the NFL and NBA. Would the Cubs be in this same exact position without Maddon? The naming game with you is always amusing. Your dot connecting even more so None of these dots you have connected have anything to do with Hanley Ramirez. He was on a team two years removed from a World Series with a manager noted to be good at working with different personalities and making them work together. In short, it isn't the manager, it's the player. But please, continue to name all kinds of different sports and players and act like it is so easy to make it work because of a coach/manager. Harbaugh turned around Michigan, but somehow managed to lose San Francisco. Weird! Ozzie worked with Carl Everett in 05, but let's not talk about 07! Weird! Ventura competed in 2012 with a team that quit on Ozzie. Weird! Connect the dots! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 08:59 AM) The naming game with you is always amusing. Your dot connecting even more so None of these dots you have connected have anything to do with Hanley Ramirez. He was on a team two years removed from a World Series with a manager noted to be good at working with different personalities and making them work together. In short, it isn't the manager, it's the player. But please, continue to name all kinds of different sports and players and act like it is so easy to make it work because of a coach/manager. In comparison to John Farrell failing with this year's team and getting his GM, Don Orsillo and Larry Lucchino fired in the process...we have Robin Ventura, who MIGHT (according to KW) have been AL Manager of the Year in 2012 had they actually held off the Tigers. Basically, you're making a great case for dumping Hahn/KW. Why exactly would Ramirez play harder or better for Ventura when Robin hasn't earned the respect that comes from regularly getting your team to the post-season? At any rate, like Harbaugh in SF and Ozzie in 2011, Ventura lost the White Sox as well over the last three seasons. Can't understand why the fans are the only ones who can identify something that is broken. Edited October 11, 2015 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 If the Sox can dump LaRoche and Danks, the Red Sox cover at least 3/4 of Hanley's contract AND they throw in an intriguing prospect, I'd do it. Anything less and I'd say no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 10, 2015 -> 03:18 PM) Don't know about his defense at third... and his hitting isn't even good anymore. 1 year of LaRoche > 3 years of Hanley Sounds like a perfect White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunt Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 QUOTE (Vance Law @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 12:52 AM) Why? Awful contract, bad defensively, character issues...why would you take him off the Red Sox hands exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 1) H. R. is not too old, and he will only be 32, 33 and 34 during the remaining 3 years of his contract. 2) He is owed $22 Million for each of those 3 years. 3) I have no idea if he is a "Divo," or what kind of clubhouse presence he represents. In light of those facts, if the Red Sox would pay enough of his salary to reduce the cost to the Pale Hose to something around $12 to 15 Million, he could potentially solve the lack of run production problem. I assume that he would bat clean up vs. LHP and 5TH vs. RHP, while DH'ing. The top half of the order might look like this vs. LHP: Eaton ? Abreu H. Ramirez Cabrera Against RHP, it probably would make sense to flip H. Ramirez and Melky, in order to get the Left handed bat sandwiched between Abreu and Ramirez. If they could acquire him without giving up important pitching, it might make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 QUOTE (Vance Law @ Oct 10, 2015 -> 06:18 PM) Not if you sign Zobrist as your starting LF and backup plan at 3B, moving Melky/Avi to DH. It's obviously not without risk but it's an avenue to upgrade 3B and OF (and OF defense) at a fraction of the years and dollars required to just sign one of Upton/Cespedes/Heyward/Gordon. And it is not one of the clown ass proposals that presumes to trade the entire farm and/or Quintana (during a rebuild!!!) to get Frazier or Longoria (not happening) or Arenado (not happening). I have to imagine 3B is where Hanley would most want to play. I don't buy that he's done at 31. If we don't get him, he is playing 3B for the Angles or Astros next year. Sorry but I'm not on board with signing Zobrist due to his being 34. I could see a one year deal with a mutual option but that's as far as I'd go and its likely he can get a 2 or 3 year guaranteed deal. I do agree with you on the trade proposals and I doubt the Sox sign any of those free agents. Longoria is not the player he once was, Frazier's second half combined with moving to the AL scares me and Arenado just ain't happening. Besides, the Sox do not have anyone that can immediately step into the rotation to take Q's spot which means the Sox have to force one of Montas/Fulmer before they are ready or sign a FA which will be costly. Q will be pitching for the Sox next year. Just thinking out loud here but I wouldn't mind the Sox trading for a player like Luis Valbuena to play third and supply some power from the left side. Slide Melky to DH and use LaRoche off the bench, move Eaton to LF, Thompson to CF and sign Parra to play RF. The entire outfield defense improves along with 3B. Not the best ideas but the Sox are in a difficult position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted October 11, 2015 Author Share Posted October 11, 2015 QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 09:53 AM) Just thinking out loud here but I wouldn't mind the Sox trading for a player like Luis Valbuena to play third and supply some power from the left side. Well, Valbuena will probably be available when the Astros get Hanley. I understand that Zobrist is 34 but he will continue to be a better baseball player than Valbuena for at least 2 years, and he can play 6 positions. And won't cost anything in trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 Ramirez isn't a switch-hitter, he's a righty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 If Boston is willing to pay up like the Angels did for Hamilton's trade you do it. In that case, even if you cut him, you are eating Gordon Beckham type of money, which the team has shown they will do. Other than that, his attitude and laziness aren't worth the risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Boston played Travis Shaw at 1st base for the 2nd half of season once they traded Napoli at all star break. Why would they want LaRoche Shaw 25 years old --65 games-- 274 avg-13 HR 36 RBI 57 SO LaRoche 35 years old 127 games-- .206 avg-12 HR-44 RBI 133 SO Both are lefthanded. Why would Boston want LaRoche even for 1 season. If Hahn talks to them about Ramirez, they are going to want a SP back and unless it is Danks I would hope the White Sox pass. Here is a quote from one Boston media source: www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2015/06/boston_red_sox_trade... Meanwhile, WEEI.com's John Tomase is not particularly keen on the team's trade prospects. Even if the team brought in the players on big-time deals, the long-term trade value for Ramirez and Sandoval is pretty low at the moment. From WEEI.com: While there's been a call to "blow things up" again a la 2012, let's be realistic. What's the market for any of these players? Ramirez is a defensive liability with a history of clubhouse issues who's making minimal effort to improve. He's little more than a DH at this point, but playing him there next year would mean chasing franchise icon David Ortiz into retirement. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a 40-year-old Ortiz than a 32-year-old Ramirez. Sandoval is overweight and underperforming, working on his fifth straight season of declining OPS and looking unsuited to play third. Maybe he's a first baseman. Or maybe he's a DH, too. The Red Sox could be paying three of those nearly $60 million next year. Edited October 12, 2015 by SCCWS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsoxhurt35 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Ya...lets not help out Boston. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 QUOTE (Vance Law @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 05:42 PM) Well, Valbuena will probably be available when the Astros get Hanley. I understand that Zobrist is 34 but he will continue to be a better baseball player than Valbuena for at least 2 years, and he can play 6 positions. And won't cost anything in trade. Wait, now the Astros are getting Hanley? Zobrist or Valbuena is debatable. Personally, I'd rather have Valbuena due to reasons I've already mentioned but that's just me. As far as Hanley goes, I think Boston would have to eat more money than they are willing in order for the White Sox to be interested. If the Sox look at a deal where bad contracts are exchanged I'd rather look into Ethier since he does give a little pop from the left side, can still hit and best of all is not a mental basket case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted October 12, 2015 Author Share Posted October 12, 2015 QUOTE (SCCWS @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 05:10 PM) Boston played Travis Shaw at 1st base for the 2nd half of season once they traded Napoli at all star break. Why would they want LaRoche Shaw 25 years old --65 games-- 274 avg-13 HR 36 RBI 57 SO LaRoche 35 years old 127 games-- .206 avg-12 HR-44 RBI 133 SO Both are lefthanded. Why would Boston want LaRoche even for 1 season. If Hahn talks to them about Ramirez, they are going to want a SP back and unless it is Danks I would hope the White Sox pass. I pretty much agree with you. The article I linked to said this: "They might need to acquire a first baseman they know can handle the position defensively. They might need to acquire a first baseman with a longer track record of hitting in the major leagues than Shaw." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 06:37 PM) Wait, now the Astros are getting Hanley? Zobrist or Valbuena is debatable. Personally, I'd rather have Valbuena due to reasons I've already mentioned but that's just me. As far as Hanley goes, I think Boston would have to eat more money than they are willing in order for the White Sox to be interested. If the Sox look at a deal where bad contracts are exchanged I'd rather look into Ethier since he does give a little pop from the left side, can still hit and best of all is not a mental basket case. LA has some decisions to make. How confident are they to trade Ethier and hope for rebounds from Puig, Pederson and Crawford at this point is what he is...a declining speed-based player with an ugly contract (not unlike their situation with Manny Ramirez, Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones five seasons ago). The problem is that they have less incentive to trade Ethier now...if not exactly an asset, he's not a huge liability either. The biggest problem is whether Hahn's ready to throw in the towel on Garcia (send him to the minors for one year and then move Cabrera to DH?)...do they honestly believe they can compete with Ethier, Eaton, Cabrera, LaRoche and Abreu as the offensive core? Maybe they do. Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Here are my thoughts on Han-Ram..... His offensive comp for a 3B was pretty much Chase Headley. Headley had a 1.5 WAR last season. So if we say that this awful offensive season is what he will be from here on out, but at 3B, then we can guess he will be around a 1.5 WAR as a 3B. That's worth about $10M a year according to Fangraph's value of 1 WAR. Ramirez makes $22M a year for the next 4 *healthy* years, or 3 years if he is not healthy. So for it to be worth it for the White Sox, they would have to receive about $45M in the deal (or $45M minus the contracts of whatever we give them, LaRoche or Danks). Now, Danks was actually ALMOST worth his contract last season (Made $14.25M, was worth about $12.5M). So in this scenario, if they actually WANTED LaRoche, I would offer them something like LaRoche for Hanley + $35M and see what they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 08:21 PM) LA has some decisions to make. How confident are they to trade Ethier and hope for rebounds from Puig, Pederson and Crawford at this point is what he is...a declining speed-based player with an ugly contract (not unlike their situation with Manny Ramirez, Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones five seasons ago). The problem is that they have less incentive to trade Ethier now...if not exactly an asset, he's not a huge liability either. The biggest problem is whether Hahn's ready to throw in the towel on Garcia (send him to the minors for one year and then move Cabrera to DH?)...do they honestly believe they can compete with Ethier, Eaton, Cabrera, LaRoche and Abreu as the offensive core? Maybe they do. Who knows? Good points Caulfield, Ethier has bounced back to the point where he is much closer to being worth his contract and probably will be after the big four FA outfielders sign their next contracts. With Crawford seemingly un-tradable and the Dodgers reluctance to trade youth, it would seem Ethier could be the best candidate to be traded unless the Dodgers have soured on Puig. Sorry for derailing the thread, back to Hanley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 The Sox already have a team full of DH's . There's no way in hell the Sox want him under any circumstances. There is no need for any more declining players who have no defensive abilities with 3 more years on their contract ? Yeesh ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boopa1219 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 QUOTE (raBBit @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 04:36 PM) His BABIP is out of wack. If the BoSox took Danks and gave us 50 million I'd do it. Not sure what the deal is on his vesting option though. That would be a bigger deal than "something to consider." I definitely think the Sox are interested in taking a risk on a bigger contract on an offensive player with upside. If another team throws a lot of money it could easily end up in surplus value. 1.) Take a calculated risk on a guy with a big contract that another team is willing to pay you to take him. 2.) Move Q for a package of young players. 3.) Augment lineup with a crafty FA signing that has no QO attached. 1.) Trade LaRoche for Ramirez and 40 million. 2.) Trade Quintana, Frankie Montas and Carlos Sanchez to the Cubs for Kyle Schwarber, Jeimer Candelario and Javier Baez. 3.) Sign Uribe. L CF Eaton R 3B Uribe R 1B Abreu L RF Schwarber S DH Ramirez R 2B Baez S LF Cabrera R C Flowers R SS Ramirez Thompson defensive replacement for Thompson/Cabrera. Gets looks against LHP. Johnson gets starts at 2B with Baez getting looks at SS. Get a lefthanded hitting back up for Flowers. Defensive infield is awesome. Flexilbity is there. Schwarber, Uribe, Baez and Ramirez bring badly needed power potential. Hate that Q deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted October 12, 2015 Author Share Posted October 12, 2015 QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 05:37 PM) Wait, now the Astros are getting Hanley? I think he'll go to the Angels or Astros assuming Sox don't get him. I can see him being phenomenal in that Houston lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 QUOTE (Joshua Strong @ Oct 12, 2015 -> 12:22 AM) Hate that Q deal. Not me. Schwarber would instantly be our best hitter, and Candelario and Baez are far better than any of our infield guys. Q hurts, but Montas is a bullpen arm and Carlos Sanchez is a bench player. Gotta give to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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