Article on Hanley Ramirez

[Lip Man 1]

"Advanced degree in quantum theory" lmao. This is why people aren't taking you seriously. You don't even need to understand advanced stats to see zobrists value. He has put up 5+ war seasons in 5 of the last 7. But yeah, he's a "stiff". The inability to adapt to advanced statistics is just lazy.

 

And I think zobrists gets a big contract this off season. He is valuable to any team.

 

The White Sox in my opinion are not ready to "contend" next season. You do apparently and that's fine. Getting another veteran player in his 30's regardless of how good his "advanced" stats (what the regular stats weren't good enough LOL) may be is going down the same hole and throwing more money down the toilet.

 

Again just my opinion.

 

We'll see how it shakes out this winter and then we'll see what happens on the field next April.

 

They could bring in five Zorbrist's and frankly I don't think it would do a damn bit of good because the issues go higher than just on the field, those are bad enough to be sure, but the real, deeper issues start in the dugout and go up to the front office.

 

Until those are fixed, you're spinning your wheels and "hoping." Hope gets you exactly what it has for the past nine years, one playoff spot and an early exit and six losing seasons.

 

Mark

[Lillian]

Lillian:

 

With respect to you. Flowers is a black hole and no, no, no ,no to Olt.

 

Still with four gigantic holes in the lineup offensively...just my opinion.

 

Mark

 

I agree with your assessment of most of the holes. The difference is that I don't see the need to fill all of them.

If the bottom third of the lineup consists of 3 offensive "holes," I don't view that as fatal. Olt, Flowers and Sanchez would be those 3 players.

A more realistic goal is to make the top 6 spots in the lineup capable of scoring enough runs to support a solid pitching staff. The bottom 3 guys in the lineup do need to be plus defenders, but I would be satisfied with that.

 

Moreover, I see upside potential in the offense of Olt and Sanchez. Regarding Olt; he has never really had a chance. I've always agreed with what the great Ted Williams said: "It take most guys about 1,000 Major League at bats, to figure it out.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Lillian

[ChiSox59]

Lillian:

 

With respect to you. Flowers is a black hole and no, no, no ,no to Olt.

 

Still with four gigantic holes in the lineup offensively...just my opinion.

 

Mark

 

 

Every team has black holes in their lineup. So long as those players produce defensively, its not a huge problem. Very few teams have potent lineup from 1-9. The Sox can live with Sanchez and Flowers in their lineup. I am no fan of Flowers, but he is a league average catcher. The catching position around baseball is pitiful.

 

I see no reason to play Olt. I'd rather Saladino play 3B. I thought Olt's glove was pretty medicre at best...at least Saldino can throw some leather. But I am pretty much convinced the Sox will have a 3B on their roster next year who is not currently there and one that will be batting between 3-6.

[Lillian]

Every team has black holes in their lineup. So long as those players produce defensively, its not a huge problem. Very few teams have potent lineup from 1-9. The Sox can live with Sanchez and Flowers in their lineup. I am no fan of Flowers, but he is a league average catcher. The catching position around baseball is pitiful.

 

I see no reason to play Olt. I'd rather Saladino play 3B. I thought Olt's glove was pretty medicre at best...at least Saldino can throw some leather. But I am pretty much convinced the Sox will have a 3B on their roster next year who is not currently there and one that will be batting between 3-6.

 

Oh, I hope so!! Please.

[Lillian]

Let's try to focus this discussion on priorities. Would you guys please list the top 4 to 6 objectives, in the offseason, in order of priorities?

Please also make some specific recommendations. Try to do it without creating new holes, especially in the pitching.

 

You can surmise mine, but here they are, in order of priorities, but minus the solutions:

 

1) Find a power bat to complete the middle of the order.

2) Find a new SS to play solid defense, and bat second

3) Resign Albers

4) Find a good defensive third baseman, who can contribute on offense

5) Improve offensive production, behind the plate, without diminishing the defense and handling of the staff

6) Dump most of La Roche's salary

 

I left out the qualifying offer to Shark, as that is a given. I also omitted retaining the starting staff.

 

OK. Your turn, gentlemen.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Lillian

[Lip Man 1]

1. 1A. 1B. 1C.....Acquire talent by any means available...buying free agents, signing international players, rule 5 draft, solid trades.

 

Really when you get down to it the Sox still have so many needs that filling any position has got to help overall. So while I understand trying to focus on a particular area or areas, I'll take a talent upgrade anyplace. You can usually move some players around to other spots if needed.

 

Mark

[Lillian]

1. 1A. 1B. 1C.....Acquire talent by any means available...buying free agents, signing international players, rule 5 draft, solid trades.

 

Really when you get down to it the Sox still have so many needs that filling any position has got to help overall. So while I understand trying to focus on a particular area or areas, I'll take a talent upgrade anyplace. You can usually move some players around to other spots if needed.

 

Mark

 

Is that the way the front office will approach it? I thought they try to be more specific than that. But then, I have no idea how they do it.

 

[Lillian]

1. 1A. 1B. 1C.....Acquire talent by any means available...buying free agents, signing international players, rule 5 draft, solid trades.

 

Really when you get down to it the Sox still have so many needs that filling any position has got to help overall. So while I understand trying to focus on a particular area or areas, I'll take a talent upgrade anyplace. You can usually move some players around to other spots if needed.

 

Mark

 

Is that the way the front office will approach it? I thought they try to be more specific than that. But then, I have no idea how they do it.

 

[Lip Man 1]

Is that the way the front office will approach it? I thought they try to be more specific than that. But then, I have no idea how they do it.

 

I'm sure every front office has an off season plan that they try to follow but so many things aren't in their control that they have to have options and back up's plans for everything. At least I assume the good ones do. It doesn't haapen often that you print out a list and check off the needs in order 1, 2, 3, or A,B,C.

 

What happens if B falls through, what then? Do you pass up C to do something differently for the B position? What if you can't get A? Do you throw the plan out because another team 'suddenly' says, 'we've got so and so available are you interested?'

 

It's not easy being a G.M. in this sport.

 

See what I mean.

 

Mark

[Hatchetman]

As a very wise man once said, "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth."

Edited October 13, 2015 by Hatchetman

[Lillian]

I'm sure every front office has an off season plan that they try to follow but so many things aren't in their control that they have to have options and back up's plans for everything. At least I assume the good ones do. It doesn't haapen often that you print out a list and check off the needs in order 1, 2, 3, or A,B,C.

 

What happens if B falls through, what then? Do you pass up C to do something differently for the B position? What if you can't get A? Do you throw the plan out because another team 'suddenly' says, 'we've got so and so available are you interested?'

 

It's not easy being a G.M. in this sport.

 

See what I mean.

 

Mark

 

The off season last year clearly seemed to consist of a prioritized check list, which Hahn proceeded to check off. Unfortunately, he made a couple of bad choices.

Moreover, unless you intend to meet every objective, with unlimited resources, wouldn't that almost necessitate that you prioritize?

Edited October 13, 2015 by Lillian

[Vance Law]

They need young talent (which is hard to get granted) not going back to the same philosophy that hasn't worked.

 

You get young talent on your team by drafting it and not trading it away. "The same philosophy that hasn't worked" involved trading away all of their prospects for more expensive veterans. Signing free agents, who only cost money, while keeping your prospects to filter onto the MLB team is a different philosophy.

[Lip Man 1]

The off season last year clearly seemed to consist of a prioritized check list, which Hahn proceeded to check off. Unfortunately, he made a couple of bad choices.

Moreover, unless you intend to meet every objective, with unlimited resources, wouldn't that almost necessitate that you prioritize?

 

They filled some areas but the point I was trying to make was that it wasn't Hahn saying..."OK first thing we get a DH..." until then we don't do anything. "Second thing we get a starting pitcher..." etc.

 

There is fluidity to an off season plan since no team has the power to control everything, get exactly what they want, when they want and in the order that they want.

 

I'm sure this off season Kenny will tell Hahn what he expects and then we'll see if it happens or not.

 

Mark

[Panerista]

This would be such a Kenny move. That's why I hate it.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

You get young talent on your team by drafting it and not trading it away. "The same philosophy that hasn't worked" involved trading away all of their prospects for more expensive veterans. Signing free agents, who only cost money, while keeping your prospects to filter onto the MLB team is a different philosophy.

While true, to get something you have to give something up. I'm not referring to this Hanley idea however.

[BlackSox13]

Speaking of Hanley.

 

"There’s “talk in the front office” that new Red Sox baseball chief Dave Dombrowski is trying to move Hanley Ramirez, according to Nick Cafardo of The Boston Globe. Cafardo adds that the Mariners, Orioles, and Angels “seem to be the targets” of DD’s campaign to relocate the pricey veteran after he turned in a massively disappointing season in 2015. It’s not immediately clear if those three clubs have interest, however."

 

"Of course, trading Ramirez is probably easier said than done. Just last week, five general managers told Cafardo that they wouldn’t take on Ramirez even if the Red Sox picked up the tab on half of his remaining salary. Ramirez is owed $66MM through 2018 and he has a $22MM vesting option for 2019, so even at a reduced rate, that’s still a hefty price for a player coming off such a rough season on and off the field."

 

More here.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/11/red-...ey-ramirez.html

 

Ouch. The Red Sox are all kinds of backwards on that contract and only after the first year.

 

 

[oldsox]

Speaking of Hanley.

 

"There’s “talk in the front office” that new Red Sox baseball chief Dave Dombrowski is trying to move Hanley Ramirez, according to Nick Cafardo of The Boston Globe. Cafardo adds that the Mariners, Orioles, and Angels “seem to be the targets” of DD’s campaign to relocate the pricey veteran after he turned in a massively disappointing season in 2015. It’s not immediately clear if those three clubs have interest, however."

 

"Of course, trading Ramirez is probably easier said than done. Just last week, five general managers told Cafardo that they wouldn’t take on Ramirez even if the Red Sox picked up the tab on half of his remaining salary. Ramirez is owed $66MM through 2018 and he has a $22MM vesting option for 2019, so even at a reduced rate, that’s still a hefty price for a player coming off such a rough season on and off the field."

 

More here.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/11/red-...ey-ramirez.html

 

Ouch. The Red Sox are all kinds of backwards on that contract and only after the first year.

Ramirez and Panda Sandoval. What a pair to draw to. Another testimonial to GM's. And yet, Bosox are loaded with great prospects.

[he gone.]

Apologize if this point has already been brought up, just read the last two pages of the thread. But what if we did some kind of deal where we trade LaRoche (he could fill in at 1B/DH - where Hanley was supposed to be) and another player..

Not sure who that other player should be -- I don't even know if that is a prospect level? Or BoSox just don't want him? But if as the MLBTraderumors article said -- they are willing to eat half of the salary ... then I'd take Hanley on at say.. $13-14mm a year for 3 years while getting rid of LaRoche and his $13mm for this year.

 

Essentially that would be adding 2 years of contract.

 

Problem? It doesn't solve getting Melky and/or Garcia out of our OF via the DH position.

[chetkincaid]

Apologize if this point has already been brought up, just read the last two pages of the thread. But what if we did some kind of deal where we trade LaRoche (he could fill in at 1B/DH - where Hanley was supposed to be) and another player..

Not sure who that other player should be -- I don't even know if that is a prospect level? Or BoSox just don't want him? But if as the MLBTraderumors article said -- they are willing to eat half of the salary ... then I'd take Hanley on at say.. $13-14mm a year for 3 years while getting rid of LaRoche and his $13mm for this year.

 

Essentially that would be adding 2 years of contract.

 

Problem? It doesn't solve getting Melky and/or Garcia out of our OF via the DH position.

 

There is no way I would want Hanley Ramirez on this team... even at that significantly reduced salary. Play the kids unless something better comes along.

[BlackSox13]

I've been staunchly against the idea of trading for Hanley but if Boston is willing to eat half of his salary, half of the 2019 vesting option and take LaRoche, I think my mind could be changed. In total, the Sox would be on the hook for about 45M through the '19 season. I think Hanley's bat is worth 11M per year.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I've been staunchly against the idea of trading for Hanley but if Boston is willing to eat half of his salary, half of the 2019 vesting option and take LaRoche, I think my mind could be changed. In total, the Sox would be on the hook for about 45M through the '19 season. I think Hanley's bat is worth 11M per year.

 

 

Yeah I'd make that deal too.

[GreenSox]

I've been staunchly against the idea of trading for Hanley but if Boston is willing to eat half of his salary, half of the 2019 vesting option and take LaRoche, I think my mind could be changed. In total, the Sox would be on the hook for about 45M through the '19 season. I think Hanley's bat is worth 11M per year.

So your proposal is Hanley + 1/2 his salary for Laroche?

Too many years, but that would be okay. One worry is that he is kind of a headcase though and headcases generally get worse under Sox leadership.

[Bob Sacamano]

I've been staunchly against the idea of trading for Hanley but if Boston is willing to eat half of his salary, half of the 2019 vesting option and take LaRoche, I think my mind could be changed. In total, the Sox would be on the hook for about 45M through the '19 season. I think Hanley's bat is worth 11M per year.

 

Would Hanley be the primary DH in this situation? I could live with that as long as we don't have to see him play the outfield.

[BlackSox13]

So your proposal is Hanley + 1/2 his salary for Laroche?

Too many years, but that would be okay. One worry is that he is kind of a headcase though and headcases generally get worse under Sox leadership.

Well, I'm just stating what it would take to change my mind. I've been against the Hanley idea from the start of this thread but for that proposed deal, I must admit I would have a difficult time saying no.

 

I really don't want him and I agree that he is a bit of a head case but I still think there's plenty of life left in his bat. His salary and lack of a defensive position is what turns me off and why I would have to insist LaRoche was part of the deal.

 

FWIW, I don't think Boston would actually do that deal. Then again, they have made trades in the past where they dumped high salary players through trades. The Dodgers know all about that.

[BlackSox13]

Would Hanley be the primary DH in this situation? I could live with that as long as we don't have to see him play the outfield.

Definitely DH. The Sox could work with Hanley on the side to help his fielding in an effort to be Abreu's backup at 1B. Not something I would count on but working with him on the side won't hurt.