Team Construction

[SCCWS]

Thank you. You proved my point. With different better players, the Sox got better results. The manager doesn't remotely f***ing matter.

 

He definitely does. The manager creates an atmosphere that either encourages or discourages the team. As I originally posted, I had not seen the Cubs play until this series. Look how Joe Maddon is making changes with his lineup. I would think having a lineup w 4 rookies playing key roles makes his job a lot tougher than a team w a strong veteran presence. The manager creates the atmosphere and ultimately is the cheerleader and the ass-kicker. Read Terry Francona's book about all the drama that comes with the job.

[BlackSox13]

I don't give the FO for trying and then using a strategy with an extremely high rate of failure. The accurate metaphor is trying to satisfy your retirement needs by putting the $100k you've saved up in the lottery. Then yelling "I totally tried to retire a millionaire!" Yes, you tried, but you didn't assess the fact that it would be surprising if that strategy worked. It might work if we try it again next year, eventually if you put $100k into the lottery every day you would win, but it might well take decades.

The Sox had money to spend, numerous holes to fill with not nearly enough in the farm to fills those holes so what else were they supposed to do?

I went into last off season expecting '15 to be a year for youth and development but since the Sox opened up payroll, I bought into the idea of trying to contend. Things didn't work out but I still give them credit for trying despite having so many voids. I do hold the FO responsible for the Samardzija trade, never did like it since I was high on Bassitt and Ravelo but its not the FO's fault Samardzija sucked so badly either.

 

I can see why a few people around here use the word fickle. Sox are criticized for spending money and yet also criticized for being cheap. I'm not directing that anyone in particular, just an observation in pessimism. Some just seem hell bent on complaining about any and everything.

 

 

[Bigsoxhurt35]

The White Sox won the World Series with Ozzie Guillen as the manager.

 

The manager doesn't matter.

Ozzie at least had experience. Ventura didn't when hired and just flat out sucks. Ozzie did a good job during the playoff run though

[Bigsoxhurt35]

You're right. Joe Maddon is meaningless for the Cubbies

 

Sure maybe the Cards can get away with it now but they're just a great organization. But managers definitely matter.

Edited October 15, 2015 by SouthSideSale

[OmarComing25]

The manager isn't meaningless but his importance is always vastly overstated. The Rays won more games this year than last year and that was with largely the same roster sans Price and Maddon and being decimated by injuries. There's not a lot of evidence that managers matter all that much. Scapegoats and undeserved accolades pretty much describe the majority of managers (especially Maddon this year). The Cubs' rookies didn't play well because Maddon managed them to play well.

[Vance Law]

He definitely does. The manager creates an atmosphere that either encourages or discourages the team. As I originally posted, I had not seen the Cubs play until this series. Look how Joe Maddon is making changes with his lineup. I would think having a lineup w 4 rookies playing key roles makes his job a lot tougher than a team w a strong veteran presence. The manager creates the atmosphere and ultimately is the cheerleader and the ass-kicker. Read Terry Francona's book about all the drama that comes with the job.

 

Ned. Yost.

[LDF]

The thing is, it is false. The white sox aren't cheap, they spend money. It doesn't matter which member says it, it is false

 

well well well, it has been some time.

 

typical .

 

 

[LDF]

I don't give the FO for trying and then using a strategy with an extremely high rate of failure. The accurate metaphor is trying to satisfy your retirement needs by putting the $100k you've saved up in the lottery. Then yelling "I totally tried to retire a millionaire!" Yes, you tried, but you didn't assess the fact that it would be surprising if that strategy worked. It might work if we try it again next year, eventually if you put $100k into the lottery every day you would win, but it might well take decades.

 

lets look at the adam laroche signing

[LDF]

spending money and spending money wisely, i sometimes wonder how they the FO determines that at the end of the yr.

 

the problem is, this yr has shown how far the sox still needs to go in order to improve while having to look over the shoulder of the other team in chi. if someone needs or feels compelled to say, lets just fix our house. well there is 2 things wrong with that statement.

 

1. the owners are wanting the fans to come out and yet how can they when the FO have mismanaged this team all the while

2. the northside is doing a better job to fielding a team

 

now answer this, why are the northsider doing a better job???

 

are their fans saying, hey look they spent money.

 

the sox needs to spend a little more, to really help find some pieces to fix this team and at the same time need to make some hard decisions on the trade front. trade to help replenish the system... at least to hurry up the ability to replace players when their contracts are up.

 

the sox spend money, well i hope they will spend a little more to make this team a better team, before it is too late to get some fans to come out to the games.

[MindGame2004]

Start with Kenny. He has to go. To a greater extent, Jerry does too. The two of them could care less about the farm system. There's no revenue in it. They've been tinkering with the same bad team now for years, adding free agents and trading for veterans while all the while not fluxing any kind of talent into the big club from the farm. They're hellbent on pitching but have no one who can field or hit. In a hitter friendly ballpark they play 81 games in no less.

 

Rick Hahn seems like a smart guy, but if he has Kenny stepping on his head, it doesn't really matter how smart he is. Then you have Robin, who while being a total waste of a manager, has this dysfunction above him.

 

Could Joe Maddon manage a team with this kind of front office? He's worked for Andrew Friedman and Theo Epstein. I'd say that helps matters for him, and while Maddon is a good manager, imagine having brain trusts like those helping make your job easier.

 

Jerry hires his kids. Bulls, White Sox, doesn't matter. You've played for one of his teams? Great. You're hired.

 

[shysocks]

The Sox had money to spend, numerous holes to fill with not nearly enough in the farm to fills those holes so what else were they supposed to do?

I went into last off season expecting '15 to be a year for youth and development but since the Sox opened up payroll, I bought into the idea of trying to contend. Things didn't work out but I still give them credit for trying despite having so many voids. I do hold the FO responsible for the Samardzija trade, never did like it since I was high on Bassitt and Ravelo but its not the FO's fault Samardzija sucked so badly either.

 

I can see why a few people around here use the word fickle. Sox are criticized for spending money and yet also criticized for being cheap. I'm not directing that anyone in particular, just an observation in pessimism. Some just seem hell bent on complaining about any and everything.

This is a terrific post. Balta's thing is the idea that the failure rate of free agent contracts is fairly high, but not all contracts are equal. The LaRoche and Melky signings suck in hindsight, but they are not albatrosses. The Samardzija trade didn't work out, but no blue chippers were involved.

 

Do I now wish those moves hadn't happened? Yes. In fact the only move I really liked at the time was Melky. But the fact is that the Sox went for it in 2015 without dooming the future.

[LDF]

Start with Kenny. He has to go. To a greater extent, Jerry does too. The two of them could care less about the farm system. There's no revenue in it. They've been tinkering with the same bad team now for years, adding free agents and trading for veterans while all the while not fluxing any kind of talent into the big club from the farm. They're hellbent on pitching but have no one who can field or hit. In a hitter friendly ballpark they play 81 games in no less.

 

Rick Hahn seems like a smart guy, but if he has Kenny stepping on his head, it doesn't really matter how smart he is. Then you have Robin, who while being a total waste of a manager, has this dysfunction above him.

 

Could Joe Maddon manage a team with this kind of front office? He's worked for Andrew Friedman and Theo Epstein. I'd say that helps matters for him, and while Maddon is a good manager, imagine having brain trusts like those helping make your job easier.

 

Jerry hires his kids. Bulls, White Sox, doesn't matter. You've played for one of his teams? Great. You're hired.

 

ref RV, i am an RV fan, mostly as a player. i like what he brought to the game for the sox.

 

but all this is not his fault. ref the bold, i will go one further, would or could Maddon have manage this team better, if so by how much??? with the players assembled.

[MindGame2004]

ref RV, i am an RV fan, mostly as a player. i like what he brought to the game for the sox.

 

but all this is not his fault. ref the bold, i will go one further, would or could Maddon have manage this team better, if so by how much??? with the players assembled.

 

He's not a player anymore. What's in the past is in the past. It's not like the franchise has had a strong history of success. It's like the Cub fans that were dying to hire Girardi or Sandberg to be their manager. Having played for the club should not matter. Get a guy who is good at the job.

 

I'm not saying it is all his fault. To this point, he has proven to me to be a bad manager at best, regardless of what he has to work with. He's part of the problem as opposed to the solution.

[LDF]

He's not a player anymore. What's in the past is in the past. It's not like the franchise has had a strong history of success. It's like the Cub fans that were dying to hire Girardi or Sandberg to be their manager. Having played for the club should not matter. Get a guy who is good at the job.

 

I'm not saying it is all his fault. To this point, he has proven to me to be a bad manager at best, regardless of what he has to work with. He's part of the problem as opposed to the solution.

 

i hope you didn't get me wrong. everything you said, does make a point.

 

i just can't see the clearing thru the forest. there i admit it.

 

but it appears as though you are addressing a situation all the while the problem starts higher.

 

that is my opinion.

 

good post.

[MindGame2004]

i hope you didn't get me wrong. everything you said, does make a point.

 

i just can't see the clearing thru the forest. there i admit it.

 

but it appears as though you are addressing a situation all the while the problem starts higher.

 

that is my opinion.

 

good post.

 

It sucks from top to bottom. I realize the issue starts higher and acknowledged it in the first post. Robin Ventura is not a good manager with all that being said. He has inept, enabled, nepotism fueled dysfunction above him. Even with that, he is responsible for the lineup and for decision making in games. He's proven he's not adept at making those decisions.

 

They need a Blackhawk type of cleansing. Really is that simple. Jerry and Kenny are bad. Robin is bad. I really have no idea what Rick Hahn is good at if Kenny has the final say on everything.

 

All these guys being bad at that they do is not mutually exclusive. Give Robin the Royals and see if he's any better at the decisions he is responsible for making. He doesn't strike me as an enlightened guy. He's a former player from an era gone by that has the loyalty of his superiors because he played for them years ago.

[LDF]

It sucks from top to bottom. I realize the issue starts higher and acknowledged it in the first post. Robin Ventura is not a good manager with all that being said. He has inept, enabled, nepotism fueled dysfunction above him. Even with that, he is responsible for the lineup and for decision making in games. He's proven he's not adept at making those decisions.

 

They need a Blackhawk type of cleansing. Really is that simple. Jerry and Kenny are bad. Robin is bad. I really have no idea what Rick Hahn is good at if Kenny has the final say on everything.

 

All these guys being bad at that they do is not mutually exclusive. Give Robin the Royals and see if he's any better at the decisions he is responsible for making. He doesn't strike me as an enlightened guy. He's a former player from an era gone by that has the loyalty of his superiors because he played for them years ago.

ref the bold, i wished you had added more... i think i am going to like your posts in the future.

 

with ref to the rest of your post, i can't find a counter.

 

very good.

[southsider2k5]

Not really...because Jennings was terrible, Petricka took a step or two back and the back end was bad.

 

We spent a ton on Robertson and Duke and became merely below average. Wasn't exactly efficient allocation of resources.

 

Dan Jennings wasn't terrible. He had one disaster of an outing where he was left out there to take one for the team. In that one outing, he gave up 25% of the ER he gave up for the entire season. That game also included 3 of the 24 walks he gave up for the entire season.

 

His FIP on the season was half a run less than his ERA.

[Kyyle23]

well well well, it has been some time.

 

typical .

 

Um ok?

[OmarComing25]

Looking at the lineups of the playoff teams it's a gut punch of how far we have to go. We have a bunch of players that we say "well they'd be good enough for that position", but that's what you say when you have 4-5 star players to offset the "good enough". You can't have good enough at every position!

On the bright side our playoff trio of Sale/Q/Rodon would easily best any of the other AL playoff rotations, and is at least on par if not better than the NL playoff rotations.

[caulfield12]

On the bright side our playoff trio of Sale/Q/Rodon would easily best any of the other AL playoff rotations, and is at least on par if not better than the NL playoff rotations.

 

And that will sell how many season tickets next year?

[ChiSox59]

Not to mention Miguel Sano and the Twins (yet another impact infielder at a premium position)....they finished exactly how we were projected to by most experts.

 

Miguel Sano is a 1B. They'll try him at 3B, but it will fail.

[shysocks]

And that will sell how many season tickets next year?

That has nothing to do with what he said.

 

On the bright side our playoff trio of Sale/Q/Rodon would easily best any of the other AL playoff rotations, and is at least on par if not better than the NL playoff rotations.

And that will rescue how many puppies?

 

 

[lasttriptotulsa]

Dan Jennings wasn't terrible. He had one disaster of an outing where he was left out there to take one for the team. In that one outing, he gave up 25% of the ER he gave up for the entire season. That game also included 3 of the 24 walks he gave up for the entire season.

 

His FIP on the season was half a run less than his ERA.

 

This. Dan Jennings was fine. He had nerve problems in his neck and shoulder that led to his poor start. After resting it and coming off the DL he had a 1.35 ERA over 33.1 innings the rest of the way with just 2 earned runs in August and September combined (22.1 IP). He definitely has a place on the team next year.

[BlackSox13]

This is a terrific post. Balta's thing is the idea that the failure rate of free agent contracts is fairly high, but not all contracts are equal. The LaRoche and Melky signings suck in hindsight, but they are not albatrosses. The Samardzija trade didn't work out, but no blue chippers were involved.

 

Do I now wish those moves hadn't happened? Yes. In fact the only move I really liked at the time was Melky. But the fact is that the Sox went for it in 2015 without dooming the future.

Thanks Shysocks.

 

I do agree about the failure rate being high and I think it's due to many players have already peaked by the time they hit FA around age 30 so the

signing team is paying for what that player has done in the past and not what the team will get from him in the future. Its definitely not the best approach to building a team but sometimes signings some free agents is a necessary evil.

 

I admit, I liked all the signings at the time but like you, I don't like them in hindsight. I'm at peace with Melky and Robertson since the Sox were pretty desperate for a LF and Closer but the LaRoche and Duke signings really sucked. What gets me on the Samardzija trade is that the Sox gave up a 26 year old starter in Bassitt that showed some impressive stuff in a small sample size and also gave up a young high OBP minor league player in Ravelo.

 

Luckily we just have to ride out the '16 season and the Sox will be in better financial shape. Samardzija is good as gone and hopefully EJ is the answer to replacing Samardzija in the rotation. Melky hit decent in a linup a most horrible lineup so I can live with that. Robertson, hey at least we finally have a closer despite him blowing some saves.

 

Good news is the Sox have just over 28M coming off the books when '16 ends. So while next season is playing out the Sox will have their young talent in the minors progressing through the system while guys like Sanchez, EJ, Micah and Saladino get more MLB experience. At the end of the '16 season the Sox will have a better idea of where the youth stands and money to play with which puts them in a much better situation than the one they are currently in.

[OmarComing25]

If we hadn't taken a shot this past offseason and made 2015 a rebuilding year instead, then 2016 probably wasn't going to have high expectations either. The only move that could potentially really hamper us past 2016 was Melky and that's just for 2017. Other than that it's the two draft picks and Semien (who would be nice to have right now). At least we didn't gut a top farm system and hamper ourselves with horrible contracts like the Padres did.