Concealed weapons in college classrooms

[StrangeSox]

How is that an extreme? That's exactly how this story is being reported. It's white cop beats black teen and oh look he's been sued for it before! Why else bring that up unless you want to stir up that fire?

 

I'm tired of the every cop is racist and that's the only reason they do x, y and z story. Why can't we assume, firstly, that he's just an asshole and bad at his job? And then if the FACTS (not criminal accusations in a complaint) come out that he DOES target blacks, then you can come up with that angle. That's all i'm saying. You bringing up the "well studies show racism!" line means you're doing the exact same thing.

 

If you think this:

 

Obviously that must mean that in every case, without exception, where a white officer does something to a black person, it must be because they're racist.

 

is a fair interpretation of what I'm saying, either I'm communicating very poorly or you're not reading very well.

[Jenksismyhero]

It's not about pegging anyone as "a racist," and it's not even really about discrete actions being driven by consciously racist thoughts. I would bet that there's an underlying racial element here, but really I'm more pressing you on why you think we should dismiss it out of hand.

 

We're probably pretty much all 'racist' to some extent, and that's regardless of our own racial background. There's been a lot of recent work on implicit bias.

 

Because there's literally no evidence of that here other than he's white and she's black. So why is that an appropriate assumption or outright accusation (even if indirect) to make right off the bat?

[caulfield12]

Statistically, do roughly 35-40% of his problems involve white students?

 

That should be the case proportionately based on the school's demographic make-up.

[StrangeSox]

Because there's literally no evidence of that here other than he's white and she's black. So why is that an appropriate assumption or outright accusation (even if indirect) to make right off the bat?

Well, there's also the general evidence of racial disparity in both policing and school discipline, plus there are accusations against this particular officer from other people. But you seemed to be rejecting the notion completely, asking why we can't just go with "he's an asshole/bad cop" and not even consider the racial aspect.

[Jenksismyhero]

If you think this:

 

 

 

is a fair interpretation of what I'm saying, either I'm communicating very poorly or you're not reading very well.

 

YOU aren't saying this. I'm talking about how this story, and others like it, are reported and have been reported the last couple of years. CNN isn't saying "look at this racist cop!" They're saying look what this cop, who's white, did to this student, who's black. And oh yeah! He's got this complaint against him accusing him of being racist. He's got a shady past!

 

They're purposefully making a racial component where there is no reason to. And they do it because it gets people on both sides upset. I'm asking, why can't we just report that an asshole cop went too far? Period. End of story.

[caulfield12]

That’s when Fields called for his partner to “get her black ass,” Martin said. The officer grabbed her phone and deleted the photos.

 

During the arrest, Martin told Fields the rough arrest would lead to a lawsuit.

 

“I’m glad Johnny Cochran is dead,” Fields shot back, according to Martin.

 

The officer also told Martin as he was cuffed that “you’re just another notch in my belt,” according to court documents.

 

 

So that's al least four other incidents with black students/couples...in addition to this recent one, that makes five.

 

None involve a single white person.

 

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Well, there's also the general evidence of racial disparity in both policing and school discipline, plus there are accusations against this particular officer from other people. But you seemed to be rejecting the notion completely, asking why we can't just go with "he's an asshole/bad cop" and not even consider the racial aspect.

 

Racial disparity in policing and school discipline across the board isn't evidence in this particular case. "Blacks teens commit a lot of crime" isn't evidence that black teen X committed Y crime.

 

Same with accusations. That complaint was filed against like 20 cops. For basically claiming a kid was a gang member. Not of misconduct or anything like. So yeah, I dismiss that right away as being nothing.

 

If there's some more digging and he's done this in the past with black students but not whites, then absolutely, let's peg him for the racist he is. But I don't see it with those two pieces of evidence is all i'm saying. And that was what was first reported, from what I saw.

[StrangeSox]

YOU aren't saying this. I'm talking about how this story, and others like it, are reported and have been reported the last couple of years. CNN isn't saying "look at this racist cop!" They're saying look what this cop, who's white, did to this student, who's black. And oh yeah! He's got this complaint against him accusing him of being racist. He's got a shady past!

 

They're purposefully making a racial component where there is no reason to. And they do it because it gets people on both sides upset. I'm asking, why can't we just report that an asshole cop went too far? Period. End of story.

 

Because if it's part of a pattern of racial disparity, it's not "Period. End of story." It's "chapter 11,487" in an ongoing saga.

[Jenksismyhero]

Because if it's part of a pattern of racial disparity, it's not "Period. End of story." It's "chapter 11,487" in an ongoing saga.

 

So again, using this logic, you yourself are a racist because 11,487 other white people have done racist things to black people.

 

You can't take data from what 50 or 500000 individuals do and use that as evidence for what one person did or why that one persons did it. You can't make those assumptions/claims when dealing with human behavior.

[StrangeSox]

So again, using this logic, you yourself are a racist because 11,487 other white people have done racist things to black people.

 

You can't take data from what 50 or 500000 individuals do and use that as evidence for what one person did or why that one persons did it. You can't make those assumptions/claims when dealing with human behavior.

I think we're talking past each other. I don't particularly care if "Officer Slam" is "a racist" or did this because he is "racist against black people." I'm explaining how this individual incident ties into the broader patterns, and why people discuss the racial aspect of stories like this.

 

I can't take data from 50 or 500,000 individual cases of lung cancer and use that as evidence that this one particular case was caused by smoking, but we can take that data and build a strong case about the underlying causes, risks etc. That's what is going on here, I think, or at least should be, not pretty much useless questions of "is individual X a racist?"

[caulfield12]

Correlation would be the word here.

[DrunkBomber]

So again, using this logic, you yourself are a racist because 11,487 other white people have done racist things to black people.

 

You can't take data from what 50 or 500000 individuals do and use that as evidence for what one person did or why that one persons did it. You can't make those assumptions/claims when dealing with human behavior.

Hes also hilariously hypocritical, but he probably knows that much.

 

*Video doesnt show exactly what happened to cause altercation*

*Cop is racist, school is racist despite no proof of exactly what happened*

*Student did nothing wrong, doesnt have to follow school orders or police orders and if you disagree youre racist*

 

As others have said the cop definitely overreacted and I couldnt care less if he was fired or not but maybe, JUST MAYBE if that student acted responsibly none of this would have happened. There are no victims here, just two idiots.

 

[caulfield12]

You'd also have to look at how many times Mr. Long had confrontations over cell phones with white and black students, and if he ever called security on a white student.

 

If the student was white, most would be saying that level of physicality is completely unnecessary or warranted in terms of cell phone usage in class. It would have been easier to first call the student's parent or guardian and threaten to have the daughter suspended for 3-5 days if she wouldn't surrender it. Looks like he was hoping for an excuse to escalate the situation.

[StrangeSox]

Hes also hilariously hypocritical, but he probably knows that much.

 

*Video doesnt show exactly what happened to cause altercation*

*Cop is racist, school is racist despite no proof of exactly what happened*

*Student did nothing wrong, doesnt have to follow school orders or police orders and if you disagree youre racist*

 

Those are a bunch of things I haven't said.

 

*The videos seem to show the majority of the confrontation. Nobody has claimed that there is more to the story or that she started the physical confrontation. The sheriff mentioned a video that shows her punching the officer, but we already see that in several of the available videos.

 

*I explicitly said I didn't care if this cop "is a racist," and I'm pretty sure that I didn't say "the school is a racist" because that doesn't even make sense. I did point out that there are clear patterns out there of racial disparities when it comes to both policing and school discipline, and that those patterns are why people would discuss the racial aspect to this specific case.

 

*The student shouldn't have been messing with her phone, she shouldn't have defied the teacher, she shouldn't have defied the administration and she shouldn't have defied the officer. I also definitely did not say you're a racist if you disagree with those things I didn't say or with things I actually did say.

 

 

 

As others have said the cop definitely overreacted and I couldnt care less if he was fired or not but maybe, JUST MAYBE if that student acted responsibly none of this would have happened. There are no victims here, just two idiots.

 

No, there is definitely a victim here. The student not turning over her phone and not leaving the classroom when asked do not even come close to justifying the violent assault. If the officer in question was not a violence-prone authoritarian asshole who could not even handle a teenage girl defying his commands without physically assaulting her, none of this would have happened. He's the adult here, he's the professional with a badge while she's a bratty kid. He should absolutely have been fired for assaulting a teenager.

Edited October 28, 2015 by StrangeSox

[EvilMonkey]

Hes also hilariously hypocritical, but he probably knows that much.

 

*Video doesnt show exactly what happened to cause altercation*

*Cop is racist, school is racist despite no proof of exactly what happened*

*Student did nothing wrong, doesnt have to follow school orders or police orders and if you disagree youre racist*

 

As others have said the cop definitely overreacted and I couldnt care less if he was fired or not but maybe, JUST MAYBE if that student acted responsibly none of this would have happened. There are no victims here, just two idiots.

personal responsibility? That's racist.

[StrangeSox]

Awful lot of excuses for a grown-ass man violently attacking a teenager for not obeying him.

[EvilMonkey]

No, there is definitely a victim here. The student not turning over her phone and not leaving the classroom when asked do not even come close to justifying the violent assault. If the officer in question was not a violence-prone authoritarian asshole who could not even handle a teenage girl defying his commands without physically assaulting her, none of this would have happened. He's the adult here, he's the professional with a badge while she's a bratty kid. He should absolutely have been fired for assaulting a teenager.

OK, just how should he have handled it? Sat there and waited her out? Stun gun? Go away and just forget it?

[StrangeSox]

OK, just how should he have handled it? Sat there and waited her out? Stun gun? Go away and just forget it?

NSS already commented on it, no reason why the bolded wouldn't work either. Attacking her as he did or with a stun gun is absolutely not the right way to handle it.

 

School officers are supposed to get specific training on this sort of thing. You don't pick her up and throw her on the ground in any case. You try to talk to her, understanding she is a child - you can't just bark an order then use big force. If the talking - and I mean a real effort - doesn't work, then heck, drag the desk out of the room with her in it. Or hand cuff her and pick her up - carry her out. At worst.

 

Edited October 28, 2015 by StrangeSox

[EvilMonkey]

NSS already commented on it, no reason why the bolded wouldn't work either. Attacking her as he did or with a stun gun is absolutely not the right way to handle it.

And when she starts kicking and punching you while you do that....

[GoSox05]

They could have called her parents, threatened her with detentions or maybe some extra school work. Possible lowering of her grade. Suspension or something like that. There is dozens of different things to do.

 

Flipping the kid over and dragging her threw a classroom is not one of them.

[StrangeSox]

And when she starts kicking and punching you while you do that....

Then there is more justification for physically restraining her. She's still a teenager and he's still a grown-ass man. There'd still be no excuse for throwing her backwards in her desk like he did and then dragging her on the ground.

 

Why do you think immediate escalation to violent assault is the appropriate course of action?

[cabiness42]

OK, just how should he have handled it? Sat there and waited her out? Stun gun? Go away and just forget it?

 

Yes, sit there and wait her out. She'll get up eventually, and then you take her into custody. If she physically resists once she's standing, then force is justifiable.

Edited October 28, 2015 by HickoryHuskers

[EvilMonkey]

http://fox40.com/2015/10/27/florin-high-sc...dents-arrested/

 

OMG! They were just a couple of 15 year old kids!

[NorthSideSox72]

And when she starts kicking and punching you while you do that....

Then carry her out. Would have been easy for him probably. And if it isn't, then call in backup and limb-carry her out. But only after trying everything else verbally, and more simple physically, first.

 

But that didn't happen anyway. The cop screwed up, pretty badly. He was fired, as he probably should have been.

 

A CHILD who has no weapon can virtually never represent enough danger to that cop to justify his actions.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

http://fox40.com/2015/10/27/florin-high-sc...dents-arrested/

 

OMG! They were just a couple of 15 year old kids!

 

lol, yeah cause that situation is in any way similar, other than it involved school.