Concealed weapons in college classrooms

[Jenksismyhero]

You'd also have to look at how many times Mr. Long had confrontations over cell phones with white and black students, and if he ever called security on a white student.

 

If the student was white, most would be saying that level of physicality is completely unnecessary or warranted in terms of cell phone usage in class. It would have been easier to first call the student's parent or guardian and threaten to have the daughter suspended for 3-5 days if she wouldn't surrender it. Looks like he was hoping for an excuse to escalate the situation.

 

No, because this story would never have been reported.

[NorthSideSox72]

I do agree with jenks on the racial angle here. It doesn't exist. There is no evidence whatsoever (that I've seen or heard anyway) that this was racially motivated.

 

[StrangeSox]

http://fox40.com/2015/10/27/florin-high-sc...dents-arrested/

 

OMG! They were just a couple of 15 year old kids!

Why do you imagine this is relevant?

 

Should every defiant teen immediately be slammed to the ground and dragged across the floor by the police? If not, why do you seem to think it's okay in this case?

[StrangeSox]

I do agree with jenks on the racial angle here. It doesn't exist. There is no evidence whatsoever (that I've seen or heard anyway) that this was racially motivated.

It's about how this incident fits into the larger pattern, not that this specific incident was provably racially motivated.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_pol..._of.single.html

 

It’s easy to treat all of this as isolated behavior from an overly aggressive police officer and a teacher who couldn’t manage his classroom without outside authority. But the fact is that this incident—where police force, normally reserved for criminal offenders, was used to discipline a student—is incredibly common.

 

In practice, however, zero-tolerance policies became grounds for suspending students over relatively minor offenses, like disrupting and skipping class, or shooting spit balls. And school resource officers became the first option instead of a last resort, as teachers and administrators increasingly used law enforcement to handle routine discipline. In public school districts around the country, arrests have increased with the presence of school resource officers, even as juvenile crime rates have decreased. Even adjusting for poverty—which tends to correlate with safety—the total arrest rate in schools with officers was almost three times the rate for schools without them. “About 92,000 students were arrested in school during the 2011–2012 school year,” notes Vox. “And most of those were low-level violations.”

 

As is often true, from the war on drugs to mass incarceration, the brunt of this punitive policy falls hardest on black and Latino Americans. From 1972 to 2010, the school suspension rate for whites in middle and high school climbed from 6 percent to 7.1 percent. For Latinos it climbed from 6.1 to 12 percent. For blacks it more than doubled from 11.8 percent to 24.3 percent.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

It's about how this incident fits into the larger pattern, not that this specific incident was provably racially motivated.

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_pol..._of.single.html

 

Obviously the answer is to get rid of the cops and teachers that discipline. Whatever we do, DO NOT question what the students are doing. Getting in trouble is a must. There's no way around it. Students have no choice.

[StrangeSox]

Obviously the answer is to get rid of the cops and teachers that discipline. Whatever we do, DO NOT question what the students are doing. Getting in trouble is a must. There's no way around it. Students have no choice.

Here is a tip: if you are starting your response with "obviously," stop, because you're just going to make up a bunch of stuff nobody is actually saying in order to avoid actually discussing something.

[Jenksismyhero]

Here is a tip: if you are starting your response with "obviously," stop, because you're just going to make up a bunch of stuff nobody is actually saying in order to avoid actually discussing something.

 

Those studies do little more than place the blame on how people react to criminal/rule breaking behavior. None of it addresses the actual criminal/rule breaking behavior.

 

Michael Brown committed a crime and attacked a cop? Who the f*** cares. He got shot by a white dude!

 

Eric Garner was selling illegal cigarettes? And then he resisted arrest? Who the f*** cares, he was killed by a white dude!

 

This student was breaking the rules, wouldn't listen to her teacher and then wouldn't listen to the cop who came to take her away? Who the f*** cares, she was assaulted by a white dude!

 

Racism, racism, racism. Who cares about the fact that crime and rule breaking actually occured.

 

Yes, pointing out the fact that minorities can be targeted in certain cities and certain neighbors for minor traffic offenses or whatever is an important thing to learn about, be wary of and fix. But guess what, fix your s***! And don't drive in a manner that gets you ticketed! And then you won't have a problem. In EXTREME situations i'm sure some of that is unavoidable and/or extremely difficult. But not in 99% of cases. 99% of cases you have someone that actually commits the wrong and then gets "excused" by being able to scream "i was unfairly targeted because of my skin color and therefore it's wrong!" Instead of focusing on why people are arrested/detained/whatever as they are, why not focus on why people feel the need to break the law/rule to begin with? Isn't that a much easier wrong to fix?

[GoSox05]

So if you commit a crime, no matter how small. Shoplifting or selling cigarettes. You should be able to be killed?

 

 

Seems a bit extreme.

[Iwritecode]

Police have been present in schools for decades—particularly in low-income communities of color—but some experts also tie their increased presence to the rise in school shootings. After Columbine, the Department of Justice invested $876 million to fund the presence of nearly 7,000 school resource officers like Fields (S. Carolina officer accused of brutality and racism in dealing with black female student in classroom). During the 2013–2014 school year, there were more than 82,000 officers working in public schools.

 

yahoo.com

 

This is funny because there was an armed guard at Columbine the day the shootings happened. He just happened to go off-campus for lunch that day.

[Iwritecode]

So if you commit a crime, no matter how small. Shoplifting or selling cigarettes. You should be able to be killed?

 

Said no one ever.

[Jenksismyhero]

So if you commit a crime, no matter how small. Shoplifting or selling cigarettes. You should be able to be killed?

 

 

Seems a bit extreme.

 

No, but the reverse isn't that we should just chalk the whole event up to racism. Why can't we acknowledge two wrongs were made? Why can't we also focus on why crime/rule breaking occurs? Again, to me, that's an easier fix than this supposed involuntarily racism that everyone has.

[GoSox05]

No, but the reverse isn't that we should just chalk the whole event up to racism. Why can't we acknowledge two wrongs were made? Why can't we also focus on why crime/rule breaking occurs? Again, to me, that's an easier fix than this supposed involuntarily racism that everyone has.

 

Except the crime being committed(shoplifting) or rule being broken(talking on phone) are pretty minor. The action by the police is not. It one case they killed someone and in the other they physically attacked someone.

 

 

Police have rules and laws to follow as well. Just because someone is committing a crime doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want to them.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Except the crime being committed(shoplifting) or rule being broken(talking on phone) are pretty minor. The action by the police is not. It one case they killed someone and in the other they physically attacked someone.

 

 

Police have rules and laws to follow as well. Just because someone is committing a crime doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want to them.

 

No one is saying that.

[StrangeSox]

Those studies do little more than place the blame on how people react to criminal/rule breaking behavior. None of it addresses the actual criminal/rule breaking behavior.

 

Michael Brown committed a crime and attacked a cop? Who the f*** cares. He got shot by a white dude!

 

Eric Garner was selling illegal cigarettes? And then he resisted arrest? Who the f*** cares, he was killed by a white dude!

 

This student was breaking the rules, wouldn't listen to her teacher and then wouldn't listen to the cop who came to take her away? Who the f*** cares, she was assaulted by a white dude!

 

Racism, racism, racism. Who cares about the fact that crime and rule breaking actually occured.

 

Yes, pointing out the fact that minorities can be targeted in certain cities and certain neighbors for minor traffic offenses or whatever is an important thing to learn about, be wary of and fix. But guess what, fix your s***! And don't drive in a manner that gets you ticketed! And then you won't have a problem. In EXTREME situations i'm sure some of that is unavoidable and/or extremely difficult. But not in 99% of cases. 99% of cases you have someone that actually commits the wrong and then gets "excused" by being able to scream "i was unfairly targeted because of my skin color and therefore it's wrong!" Instead of focusing on why people are arrested/detained/whatever as they are, why not focus on why people feel the need to break the law/rule to begin with? Isn't that a much easier wrong to fix?

 

This puts the blame for institutional racism on the victims of institutional racism.

 

eta: If white people and minorities commit infractions and crimes at a similar rate, but minorities get disproportionality disciplined/ticketed/arrested for these same things and get disproportionality harsher sentences, why wouldn't the most important thing to look at be those institutional problems rather than saying "well black people should just commit less crimes!" It's saying that, to get roughly equal treatment, minorities need to be 'twice as good' if not better. Otherwise, they are targeted more frequently and punished more harshly.

Edited October 28, 2015 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

This puts the blame for institutional racism on the victims of institutional racism.

 

True or false, if the crimes didn't occur, would we have the statistics we have?

[StrangeSox]

True or false, if the crimes didn't occur, would we have the statistics we have?

 

If racial minorities were hypothetically perfect and committed no violations, infractions or crimes, no. In the real world, they get targeted for enforcement more frequently and punished more harshly for the same violations/crimes.

[Jenksismyhero]

If racial minorities were hypothetically perfect and committed no violations, infractions or crimes, no. In the real world, they get targeted for enforcement more frequently and punished more harshly for the same violations/crimes.

 

Again, law/rule breaking is something that can't be controlled apparently. I know I have a huge problem with it on a daily basis.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Again, law/rule breaking is something that can't be controlled apparently. I know I have a huge problem with it on a daily basis.

I'm sure you do commit at least one moving violation a day if you're driving a car. If you're non-white, you're more likely to get pulled over for that.

 

It's not that people have no agency--of course they do. It's that, because of institutional racism baked into our society over the past several hundred years, when racial minorities run afoul of rules and regulations at the same rate, they will be punished more frequently and more severely than white people. There's really no ground to even argue that point--it's crystal clear in all sorts of available crime and school data and studies that have reviewed them.

 

So, should people overall commit less 'issues'? Sure. This girl should not have been talking on her phone in class, she should have turned it over, she should have left when asked. Nobody has said otherwise, despite a few people in this thread insisting that some have. But we also shouldn't have a system that is more likely to target and punish racial minorities. It's not due to individual racism or racists. Thankfully, the days of explicit white supremacy are gone. But it's due to all sorts of baked in institutional causes, and those absolutely should be addressed before we go laying the blame for disparate enforcement and punishment at the feet of the people who bear the brunt of it.

[caulfield12]

Two of the country's foremost researchers on race and capital punishment, law professor David Baldus and statistician George Woodworth, along with colleagues in Philadelphia, have conducted a careful analysis of race and the death penalty in Philadelphia which reveals that the odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly four times (3.9) higher if the defendant is black. These results were obtained after analyzing and controlling for case differences such as the severity of the crime and the background of the defendant. The data were subjected to various forms of analysis, but the conclusion was clear: blacks were being sentenced to death far in excess of other defendants for similar crimes.

 

A second study by Professor Jeffrey Pokorak and researchers at St. Mary's University Law School in Texas provides part of the explanation for why the application of the death penalty remains racially skewed. Their study found that the key decision makers in death cases around the country are almost exclusively white men. Of the chief District Attorneys in counties using the death penalty in the United States, nearly 98% are white and only 1% are African-American.

 

These new empirical studies underscore a persistent pattern of racial disparities which has appeared throughout the country over the past twenty years. Examinations of the relationship between race and the death penalty, with varying levels of thoroughness and sophistication, have now been conducted in every major death penalty state. In 96% of these reviews, there was a pattern of either race-of-victim or race-of-defendant discrimination, or both. The gravity of the close connection between race and the death penalty is shown when compared to studies in other fields. Race is more likely to affect death sentencing than smoking affects the likelihood of dying from heart disease. The latter evidence has produced enormous changes in law and societal practice, while racism in the death penalty has been largely ignored.

 

 

 

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-pena...ies-who-decides

 

That's not even mentioning all the studies showing a black person killing a white person is 8-12X more likely to be executed than when the opposite occurs.

 

I'm sure there will be some explanation given for this which makes perfectly logical sense.

Edited October 28, 2015 by caulfield12

[DrunkBomber]

I'm sure you do commit at least one moving violation a day if you're driving a car. If you're non-white, you're more likely to get pulled over for that.

 

It's not that people have no agency--of course they do. It's that, because of institutional racism baked into our society over the past several hundred years, when racial minorities run afoul of rules and regulations at the same rate, they will be punished more frequently and more severely than white people. There's really no ground to even argue that point--it's crystal clear in all sorts of available crime and school data and studies that have reviewed them.

 

So, should people overall commit less 'issues'? Sure. This girl should not have been talking on her phone in class, she should have turned it over, she should have left when asked. Nobody has said otherwise, despite a few people in this thread insisting that some have. But we also shouldn't have a system that is more likely to target and punish racial minorities. It's not due to individual racism or racists. Thankfully, the days of explicit white supremacy are gone. But it's due to all sorts of baked in institutional causes, and those absolutely should be addressed before we go laying the blame for disparate enforcement and punishment at the feet of the people who bear the brunt of it.

In regards to the bolded, Im genuinely curious if youre aware that both sides in this conversation are doing this. How many posts in this thread say things like "So youre saying its ok to kill minorities if they shoplift" and things like that when clearly there isnt a single person who is saying anything like that. So to see you keep bringing it up is again very hypocritical. Hell, you guys are basically agreeing about everything except whether it was institutional racism or not, which realistically there is no proof of, which it seems what the argument against you is trying to make, even NSS said the same thing. Nobody is saying that this cop didnt do anything wrong. If someone did say that I must have missed, but either way I feel strongly that this cop should absolutely have been fired for the way he handled this.

 

However, that doesnt make the student innocent or a victim of racism. "Sure. This girl should not have been talking on her phone in class, she should have turned it over, she should have left when asked" This is pretty much what were saying. If she just does what shes asked to do and this never happens, but that doesnt excuse the way the cop acted. They both can be and are wrong in this situation.

[StrangeSox]

In regards to the bolded, Im genuinely curious if youre aware that both sides in this conversation are doing this. How many posts in this thread say things like "So youre saying its ok to kill minorities if they shoplift" and things like that when clearly there isnt a single person who is saying anything like that. So to see you keep bringing it up is again very hypocritical.

 

Point to one time where I've done that. I can point to several times where you and others have done that to me.

 

Hell, you guys are basically agreeing about everything except whether it was institutional racism or not, which realistically there is no proof of, which it seems what the argument against you is trying to make, even NSS said the same thing. Nobody is saying that this cop didnt do anything wrong. If someone did say that I must have missed, but either way I feel strongly that this cop should absolutely have been fired for the way he handled this.

 

Alpha seemed to be making a lot of excuses for him. If you feel strongly that the cop should have been fired, then I misread you earlier and apologize.

 

However, that doesnt make the student innocent or a victim of racism. "Sure. This girl should not have been talking on her phone in class, she should have turned it over, she should have left when asked" This is pretty much what were saying. If she just does what shes asked to do and this never happens, but that doesnt excuse the way the cop acted. They both can be and are wrong in this situation.

 

Yes, but there's a huge difference in the magnitude of how wrong they were and what their reactions were. She's a child who acted defiant over a cell phone. He's an adult with a badge who attacked a teenage girl. Over and over in cases of police abuse like this, we see the soft excuse of "well, if they weren't...." That she wouldn't hand over her phone or leave the classroom doesn't somehow lessen the awful actions that cop took.

[DrunkBomber]

Point to one time where I've done that. I can point to several times where you and others have done that to me.

 

 

 

Alpha seemed to be making a lot of excuses for him. If you feel strongly that the cop should have been fired, then I misread you earlier and apologize.

 

 

 

Yes, but there's a huge difference in the magnitude of how wrong they were and what their reactions were. She's a child who acted defiant over a cell phone. He's an adult with a badge who attacked a teenage girl. Over and over in cases of police abuse like this, we see the soft excuse of "well, if they weren't...." That she wouldn't hand over her phone or leave the classroom doesn't somehow lessen the awful actions that cop took.

I completely agree with your last paragraph. There is no excuse for an officer to throw around any student, let alone a female student. At the same time though, if this student was enough of a disruption that the teacher felt the need to involve the police then clearly the student did nothing to help the situation. I do agree that nothing the student did warrants her getting treated the way she did by the cop, but at the same time just because the cop acted poorly doesnt excuse what she was doing. They both are wrong. The student can be wrong but also not deserve to be assaulted.

 

As far as institutional racism goes I guess the easiest thing I can say is I know it exists. I know its a problem. I know it likely could have contributed to this situation, but there is no proof that this student was targeted because of her race.

[caulfield12]

On the other hand, to me, it's a sign of the lack of repoire or relationship between the teacher and the student.

 

If the students 100% respect their teacher, and believe he's fair with them, then 98% of the time they will put away their phone when asked or at least make an effort to hide it under their desk and not openly talk on a phone during class time, angering the teacher and exacerbating the situation by being openly defiant.

 

The only way to really know the truth is to have been in that classroom over the last month everyday and watch the students and see how they get along with their teacher.

 

A LOT of teachers just don't want to have a confrontation with a student, they're afraid they will be accused of assault if they physically try to take the phone away (especially a white male teacher from a black female student)...so their fear of a "false accusation," especially when they have a poor relationship with minority students, will lead to the calling of the security officer.

 

I taught in an inner city high school for 4 years and basically saw everything. To call for a security officer, VP, etc., essentially means YOU as the adult have lost control of the classroom or the situation and can't resolve it yourself. Other than fights, I can't recall ever calling for security because it's the responsibility of the teacher to deal with the problem. The more you have to call for outside assistance, the more you're demonstrating weakness and the more the students will bait the teacher to see if they can waste class time by annoying the teacher and seeing if he will call for assistance. It becomes like a game, to test and see if the teacher will lose his cool. Once a teacher does that, as the adult, you've lost the situation and lowered yourself to their level.

 

 

[Texsox]

http://kfor.com/2015/10/29/mans-post-about...top-goes-viral/

[Texsox]

Point to one time where I've done that. I can point to several times where you and others have done that to me.

 

 

 

Alpha seemed to be making a lot of excuses for him. If you feel strongly that the cop should have been fired, then I misread you earlier and apologize.

 

 

 

Yes, but there's a huge difference in the magnitude of how wrong they were and what their reactions were. She's a child who acted defiant over a cell phone. He's an adult with a badge who attacked a teenage girl. Over and over in cases of police abuse like this, we see the soft excuse of "well, if they weren't...." That she wouldn't hand over her phone or leave the classroom doesn't somehow lessen the awful actions that cop took.

 

What was the appropriate response? Keep asking her nicely? She was refusing to follow school rules and openly ignored three adults. The last resort available was to physically remove her from the classroom. What should have been tried that was not tried? Saying please until the bell rings so she could leave and head to another classroom knowing that she is untouchable? We are raising generation of kids with little regard to society's rules. They feel they are above any rules and laws. They will argue forever that they should be allowed to wear whatever they like, use their cell phones whenever they like, and leave campus whenever they like. They do not need to attend classes, be on time, or do any work. And if their grades suffer the parents are at school complaining that the teacher is being unfair. Currently we are instructed to accept student work whenever they finally turn it in without penalty. We are to grade work based on the content of the work and not when they turn it in. Late work is a behavior problem that needs to be dealt with in the classroom. The trick is there are no consequences behaviorally for late work.

 

So the kids are in charge, but teachers are responsible.

 

And when society does finally follow the rules they complain that everyone else rolls through stop signs so they should too. If you can't catch everyone, then the rules is bad.