What if the Sox had ...

[Kyyle23]

It's also based on Eaton being the only starting position player or pitcher to come over from the NL in about the last five or six years and not seriously regress.

 

Quentin, although he was injured a lot and didn't have much of a track record at the MLB level, going back seven years.

 

So pretty much any non AZ Dback.

 

How many NL position players have come to the sox in the last 5-6 years, Caulfield?

[caulfield12]

How many NL position players have come to the sox in the last 5-6 years, Caulfield?

 

 

Not an incredible amount. It just goes to show how the main fiascos such as Dunn, LaRoche and Shark have started to color perceptions...along with a line of NL players who have struggled recently in the transition, such as Sandoval and Ramirez in Boston this year.

 

I remember a thread this July or August where it was hard to identify more than just a handful of success stories among all 30 teams in the last 2-3 seasons.

 

If you want to count DeAza as a success in this area (based more on original expectations), that's another that could be cited.

Edited November 1, 2015 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

Not an incredible amount. It just goes to show how the main fiascos such as Dunn, LaRoche and Shark have started to color perceptions...along with a line of NL players who have struggled recently in the transition, such as Sandoval and Ramirez in Boston this year.

 

I remember a thread this July or August where it was hard to identify more than just a handful of success stories among all 30 teams in the last 2-3 seasons.

 

If you want to count DeAza as a success in this area (based more on original expectations), that's another that could be cited.

 

I just browsed the last 6 years, Pierre/Dunn/Laroche/Kotsay/De Aza

 

And we are making proclamations based on this bunch and their sample size

 

In regards to the OP, I don't fault the Sox front office for not making a run at Morales. He certainly did not look like he had anything left after his short stints with the twins and Mariners. Good for the Royals for getting what they got out of him, but I didn't see many people wringing their hands from Laroche over Morales.

[Bob Sacamano]

I just browsed the last 6 years, Pierre/Dunn/Laroche/Kotsay/De Aza

 

And we are making proclamations based on this bunch and their sample size

 

In regards to the OP, I don't fault the Sox front office for not making a run at Morales. He certainly did not look like he had anything left after his short stints with the twins and Mariners. Good for the Royals for getting what they got out of him, but I didn't see many people wringing their hands from Laroche over Morales.

 

To be fair, his season literally started after the draft. No Spring Training. Not even a minor league stint.

[Kyyle23]

To be fair, his season literally started after the draft. No Spring Training. Not even a minor league stint.

 

Right, because he still was recovering from his broken leg three years prior. It's not stupid of GMs to think that his broken leg has ruined his career at that point

[Chicago White Sox]

I just browsed the last 6 years, Pierre/Dunn/Laroche/Kotsay/De Aza

 

And we are making proclamations based on this bunch and their sample size

 

In regards to the OP, I don't fault the Sox front office for not making a run at Morales. He certainly did not look like he had anything left after his short stints with the twins and Mariners. Good for the Royals for getting what they got out of him, but I didn't see many people wringing their hands from Laroche over Morales.

De Aza was a pretty solid hitter for us, all things considered. Pierre & Kotsay pretty much met expectations offensively, which should have been fairly low. All this goes back to Dunn & LaRoche, who are far less similar hitters than the the majority of this board realizes. The one constant, however, is both were forced to DH without having a track record at the position. Not suggesting that is the only reason for their struggles (age/health certainly played a role), but DHing is not for everyone and we shouldn't automatically assume every power bat can handle the transition.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I'm definitely not knocking Hahn for this. This is what happens when you win and lose. Royals have Morales and we get LaRoche. s*** happens.

[Kyyle23]

De Aza was a pretty solid hitter for us, all things considered. Pierre & Kotsay pretty much met expectations offensively, which should have been fairly low. All this goes back to Dunn & LaRoche, who are far less similar hitters than the the majority of this board realizes. The one constant, however, is both were forced to DH without having a track record at the position. Not suggesting that is the only reason for their struggles (age/health certainly played a role), but DHing is not for everyone and we shouldn't automatically assume every power bat can handle the transition.

 

Come on, forced? Both of these guys signed their contracts knowing what their job description was, it isn't like the Sox pulled a bait and switch on them

[Chicago White Sox]

Come on, forced? Both of these guys signed their contracts knowing what their job description was, it isn't like the Sox pulled a bait and switch on them

Who is saying the Sox pulled a bait and switch? I think you've competed misinterpreted my post. I was agreeing with you that this NL players can't hit in the AL argument is stupid and unfounded. Like I said in my previous post, the larger issue is assuming all players can handle DHing. Sure, just because Dunn & LaRoche agreed to DH and probably thought they could handle the role, doesn't mean it was going to work out for us. Our front office has to be smarter about giving big contracts to guys with no track record of DHing if that's going to be their primary role. Right now, we're 0 for 2 in those situations.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Chicago White Sox

[Bob Sacamano]

Right, because he still was recovering from his broken leg three years prior. It's not stupid of GMs to think that his broken leg has ruined his career at that point

 

To be fair again, going into free agency the year prior, he had a strong year. No one wanted to pay him to just DH and give up a draft pick. Not like he struggled, signed late and then struggled again.

Edited November 1, 2015 by soxfan2014

[Kyyle23]

Who is saying the Sox pulled a bait and switch? I think you've competed misinterpreted my post. I was agreeing with you that this NL players can't hit in the AL argument is stupid and unfounded. Like I said in my previous post, the larger issue is assuming all players can handle DHing. Sure, just because Dunn & LaRoche agreed to DH and probably thought they could handle the role, doesn't mean it was going to work out for us. Our front office has to be smarter about giving big contracts to guys with no track record of DHing if that's going to be their primary role. Right now, we're 0 for 2 in those situations.

 

 

I understand you were agreeing with me, I just think "forced" is an incorrect way of describing it, that's all. DHs usually are players that are deficient in the field but can hit for power and drive in runs. Dunn fit that description to a T, Laroche is still good in the field but his godawful start really didn't make anyone want to play him anywhere, much less the field.

 

We all want Edgar Martinez hitting DH, but unfortunately the Sox keep getting guys closer to Ray Martinez

[caulfield12]

Who is saying the Sox pulled a bait and switch? I think you've competed misinterpreted my post. I was agreeing with you that this NL players can't hit in the AL argument is stupid and unfounded. Like I said in my previous post, the larger issue is assuming all players can handle DHing. Sure, just because Dunn & LaRoche agreed to DH and probably thought they could handle the role, doesn't mean it was going to work out for us. Our front office has to be smarter about giving big contracts to guys with no track record of DHing if that's going to be their primary role. Right now, we're 0 for 2 in those situations.

 

 

Actually 2/4.

 

Andruw Jones and Jim Thome from LAD and PHA.

[Chicago White Sox]

I understand you were agreeing with me, I just think "forced" is an incorrect way of describing it, that's all. DHs usually are players that are deficient in the field but can hit for power and drive in runs. Dunn fit that description to a T, Laroche is still good in the field but his godawful start really didn't make anyone want to play him anywhere, much less the field.

 

We all want Edgar Martinez hitting DH, but unfortunately the Sox keep getting guys closer to Ray Martinez

You're dwelling on a single word and missing the point of my argument. It is very dangerous to pay a guy $15M to DH when he's never done it on a regular basis before. Not once did I suggest we need a HoF like Edgar Martinez, there are plenty of 1B types in the AL that have some experience DHing that would be safer signings than getting career NL guys. I get that Dunn had no business playing in the field, doesn't mean we needed to be the team to give him $15M a year to find out if he could handle DHing. And trust me, I was 100% behind the Dunn signing. Just saying that with the benefit of hindsight, I think we need to more cautious when filling the DH spot going forward.

[OmarComing25]

Is there data on guys who move to the DH spot without having prior experience there and then struggling? I'm not sure two data points is a sufficient sample size to make that kind of conclusion, especially since we acquired both guys well after their prime years anyway.

[Chicago White Sox]

Is there data on guys who move to the DH spot without having prior experience there and then struggling? I'm not sure two data points is a sufficient sample size to make that kind of conclusion, especially since we acquired both guys well after their prime years anyway.

Again, not saying all guys will struggle, it's just a risk that should be taken into consideration when giving annual salaries in the 8 figure range. Small sample sizes, but last year LaRoche put up a wRC+ of 103 when playing 1B and only a 59 while DHing. He even acknowledged he had struggles adjusting to the role. Going back and looking at the splits, it's looks like I was wrong about Dunn, as the DH role didn't seem to be a problem for him. But there have definitely been other guys who have had issues with DHing. Pretty sure Frank Thomas had some significant splits in the latter part of his career when he spent the majority of his time DHing.

[southsider2k5]

Again, not saying all guys will struggle, it's just a risk that should be taken into consideration when giving annual salaries in the 8 figure range. Small sample sizes, but last year LaRoche put up a wRC+ of 103 when playing 1B and only a 59 while DHing. He even acknowledged he had struggles adjusting to the role. Going back and looking at the splits, it's looks like I was wrong about Dunn, as the DH role didn't seem to be a problem for him. But there have definitely been other guys who have had issues with DHing. Pretty sure Frank Thomas had some significant splits in the latter part of his career when he spent the majority of his time DHing.

 

I think there is a pretty good chance of a bounceback from LaRoche between that, and being his second year in the AL.

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

I think there is a pretty good chance of a bounceback from LaRoche between that, and being his second year in the AL.

I agree, I don't expect a repeat of his 2014 numbers, but really believe he can be productive next year. At the very least, I think he deserves a 6 to 8 week look before moving on to other options. The best chance for this team contending is for guys like LaRoche, Melky, & Alexei to perform closer to their career averages than what they provided last year.

[reiks12]

I don't see why I see this kind of post so often. We are not a snake bit team or have a curse of anything of that nature. It just was an ill advised signing of a player who was too old and could not contribute every day . These kind of "eeyore" posts are kind of silly. Instead of putting the blame where it belongs it gets put on some kind of Sox karma thing.

 

Just having fun, nobody believes that we are cursed.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I think there is a pretty good chance of a bounceback from LaRoche between that, and being his second year in the AL.

 

I think it's more hope than actually thinking he will bounce back. He was pretty damn bad and 2 of his last 3 years haven't been good and he be 36 in a week . LaRoche couldn't hit anything but a fastball and sinkers last year and from July on he wasn't even very good at that. He ws miserable against anything off speed.

http://beforeitsnews.com/sports/2015/10/ar...im-2630010.html

 

He was terrible at home all season, terrible in the second half everywhere, terrible against LH's , terrible when behind in the count and terrible batting 5th. And when I say terrible I mean batting averages well below .200 . OBP's around .250 and OPS anywhere from .350-.550. The only way he can rebound is if he gets ahead in the count consistently.

Edited November 2, 2015 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just having fun, nobody believes that we are cursed.

 

I have seen at least 10 such posts , probably 3 or 4 in this thread alone. I honestly think some people think the Sox have a black could hanging over their heads.

[LittleHurt05]

I think there is a pretty good chance of a bounceback from LaRoche between that, and being his second year in the AL.

 

I could see that, I just hope they keep him in a strict platoon. Zero reasons for him to start vs LHP.

[Vance Law]

The Royals only signed Morales because they couldn't land Torii Hunter. They also signed Alex Rios. The Royals are geniuses.

[Thad Bosley]

The Royals only signed Morales because they couldn't land Torii Hunter. They also signed Alex Rios. The Royals are geniuses.

Until further notice they are. Back-to-back trips not only to the postseason, but to the World Series, no less, including now a World Series championship. That must have been some "Three Year Plan" they were on to accomplish all of that!

[Vance Law]

Until further notice they are. Back-to-back trips not only to the postseason, but to the World Series, no less, including now a World Series championship. That must have been some "Three Year Plan" they were on to accomplish all of that!

 

More like a 15 year plan.

[greg775]

More like a 15 year plan.

Problem is, for us, unless KC really screws it up somehow, they should be on top of the division at least 2 more seasons. Anything can happen once you win the division and get in the ALDS.