Judge deciding whether to reveal police shooting video

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm not sure rioting after a funeral is any better. Preferably riots will not happen in either case.

 

But, this idea that mass groups of people may act differently to different crimes isn't restricted to any one American group.

 

Look at any school or mass shooting, and imagine if the same act were done by a Daesh affiliate, or Al Qaeda. The hypothetical scenario may mobilize a war, cause national panic.

 

But if its just one random white guy it gets some hot topics on gun control and then people move on and are generally not scared for their lives.

 

Why is the reaction so different? The violence done by a radical group can make people feel like they are under attack, have war declared on them. Where the other just seems kind of random and isolated.

 

Well that's pretty easy: motive. We know what the radical groups want to do and generally what types of people they want to attack. Random mass murders by crazy people can happen anywhere at anytime. You're less likely to be fearful of a totally random attack versus one that has been threatened before.

 

I get more freaked out by Paris than Sandy Hook. But there is much more likely chance that a sandy hook will happen again in the next 5 years than a Paris (in the US). So, I know I'm wrong, but I still feel that way.

 

When applying that to police violence in the black community, its clear there is a different experience there, and I don't think the appropriate response is just deflecting the responses we've seen with "how come you don't act the same way for everything that is bad in the world". That's an impossible expectation.

 

But it's not "everything that is bad in the world." It's entirely local. It happens on their streets and in their communities. And after every tragic shooting of a kid the family comes out crying on the TV and asks for change and the Mayor is there at the podium saying how senseless the violence is (and get rid of guns!) and Pfleger is there inflaming a race war and around and around we go. Nothing major changes. There's not a collective "this is f***ed up and it needs to stop!" sentiment. But throw in a (white) cop shooting and it's big, big news. It's "we're tired of this, things need to change!" It's "let's protest and show people we want change!" The same type of message but delivered in a much different way.

[Jenksismyhero]

The officer in this case has been charged. The lack of charges is what sparked those other incidents.

 

I guess we'll see what happens when the video comes out.

 

And, like bmags has tried to express, it's just fundamentally a different sort of thing. Random citizen killing a child and then quickly getting charged is not the same thing as a police officer killing someone. Not charging a police officer comes down to policies and decisions by publicly accountable people and institutions.

 

I'm not denying it's different, but there's nothing stopping people from taking those streets back in much the same way they protest downtown and/or riot in the streets in response to the Grey or Brown cases. Collectively standing up to gangs and thugs and telling them enough is enough. It takes a collective effort much like rioting does. Why doesn't that happen when the basis of the protests/riots is 100's of kids dead versus one or two.

 

 

[shysocks]

Why doesn't that happen when the basis of the protests/riots is 100's of kids dead versus one or two.

Why does the right have a conniption about refugees after the Paris attacks but shrug and say "nothin' you can do" when Sandy Hook gets shot up?

 

As bmags said, this is not a phenomenon exclusive to one group of people.

[Jenksismyhero]

Why does the right have a conniption about refugees after the Paris attacks but shrug and say "nothin' you can do" when Sandy Hook gets shot up?

 

As bmags said, this is not a phenomenon exclusive to one group of people.

 

Again, it's motive. We know ISIS and AQ and the like want to kill Westerners. They threaten to attack the West all the time. They try to do it occasionally. That's something we can perceive as a real threat and actively work towards preventing. Crazy people killing random people in all corners of this country in all sorts of communities and locations is not something we can prevent.

 

 

[bmags]

Well that's pretty easy: motive. We know what the radical groups want to do and generally what types of people they want to attack. Random mass murders by crazy people can happen anywhere at anytime. You're less likely to be fearful of a totally random attack versus one that has been threatened before.

 

 

 

But it's not "everything that is bad in the world." It's entirely local. It happens on their streets and in their communities. And after every tragic shooting of a kid the family comes out crying on the TV and asks for change and the Mayor is there at the podium saying how senseless the violence is (and get rid of guns!) and Pfleger is there inflaming a race war and around and around we go. Nothing major changes. There's not a collective "this is f***ed up and it needs to stop!" sentiment. But throw in a (white) cop shooting and it's big, big news. It's "we're tired of this, things need to change!" It's "let's protest and show people we want change!" The same type of message but delivered in a much different way.

 

You need to re-read the first paragraph and bridge that analogy to what we are talking about. It's right there for the taking.

 

The people who picket and march after especially bad violence in their neighborhood typically live in that neighborhood. That is not the critical mass you are looking for I guess. But I wonder why you are not there marching then, and why you think someone else should.

[StrangeSox]

Crazy people killing random people in all corners of this country in all sorts of communities and locations is not something we can prevent.

 

but that's essentially what you're using to deflect attention from the issue of police violence--why aren't the same communities that protest police violence protesting people killing random people*?

 

 

*again, they actually do. that it's an ongoing movement rather than a brief, big spectacle and doesn't get as much attention doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Edited November 24, 2015 by StrangeSox

[Jenksismyhero]

You need to re-read the first paragraph and bridge that analogy to what we are talking about. It's right there for the taking.

 

When crime is centralized as it is here in the City, it's not at all random. We know the groups that commit the vast majority of the murders. Entirely different from mass shootings like Sandy Hook or the Colorado theater shooting.

 

The people who picket and march after especially bad violence in their neighborhood typically live in that neighborhood. That is not the critical mass you are looking for I guess. But I wonder why you are not there marching then, and why you think someone else should.

 

Not my community to fix.

[Jenksismyhero]

but that's essentially what you're using to deflect attention from the issue of police violence--why aren't the same communities that protest police violence protesting people killing random people*?

 

See above.

 

 

*again, they actually do. that it's an ongoing movement rather than a brief, big spectacle and doesn't get as much attention doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

 

Again, not to the same degree. Which is what i'm pointing out. The fact that it doesn't get the coverage (i.e., it doesn't involve that many people to warrant the coverage) proves my point. Marches of groups with hundreds of people versus tens of thousands taking to the streets in Bmore and Ferguson.

 

[bmags]

When crime is centralized as it is here in the City, it's not at all random. We know the groups that commit the vast majority of the murders. Entirely different from mass shootings like Sandy Hook or the Colorado theater shooting.

 

 

 

Not my community to fix.

 

What community? Why should someone from Rogers Park or Bronzeville go to Austin or Englewood.

[shysocks]

Again, it's motive. We know ISIS and AQ and the like want to kill Westerners. They threaten to attack the West all the time. They try to do it occasionally. That's something we can perceive as a real threat and actively work towards preventing. Crazy people killing random people in all corners of this country in all sorts of communities and locations is not something we can prevent.

Last week when arguing for barring refugees, you were for any measure that made us "even 1% safer" from terrorism. Suggest such a thing to a conservative regarding guns in America and I don't think they'd be as receptive.

 

So again: Varying proportionality of response to crimes based on their perpetrator is not exclusive to black people. You can try to explain how this-and-that makes it not true, but it is, and I don't really know how else it can be said.

[Jenksismyhero]

What community? Why should someone from Rogers Park or Bronzeville go to Austin or Englewood.

 

The local communities where the violence occurs and also the black community as a whole. For the same reason they showed up in B-More and Ferguson and maybe Chicago in the next few days.

[Jenksismyhero]

Last week when arguing for barring refugees, you were for any measure that made us "even 1% safer" from terrorism. Suggest such a thing to a conservative regarding guns in America and I don't think they'd be as receptive.

 

There's a constitutional right at play with guns. There's no such right to immigrate into our country.

 

And i've been on record being a-ok with a number of measures to further restrict who can buy a gun and what type of gun can be purchased.

[StrangeSox]

The local communities where the violence occurs and also the black community as a whole. For the same reason they showed up in B-More and Ferguson and maybe Chicago in the next few days.

 

For the record, there were not tens of thousands of people at either Ferguson or Baltimore.

[Jenksismyhero]

For the record, there were not tens of thousands of people at either Ferguson or Baltimore.

 

Whatever. Thousands. Still a good number more.

[StrangeSox]

How sure of that are you? How do the numbers compare if you take ongoing movements and efforts and marches and compare those numbers to short-term events like Ferguson and Baltimore?

[Jenksismyhero]

How sure of that are you? How do the numbers compare if you take ongoing movements and efforts and marches and compare those numbers to short-term events like Ferguson and Baltimore?

 

The Coates article you linked cited numbers like 50 and 150, and some of the pictures/video didn't look like that much.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Jenksismybitch

[StrangeSox]

That doesn't really answer either of those questions.

[Jenksismyhero]

That doesn't really answer either of those questions.

 

Sorry I don't have the data available on every single anti-violence march from every city over the last ten years. Go do some googling and check out the Bmore and Ferguson protests. Seem to be more than 50 or 150 people taking part.

[GGajewski18]

Are we allowed to post the video or no? Because it is out now.

[Jenksismyhero]

Yeah that guy has to be locked up for a long, long time. 10 seconds of shooting. No real lunge towards the cops. I mean maybe he thought the guy was going to throw the knife at him? McDonald starts to turn around like a discus thrower, but you can't tell when those first shots hit him so maybe it was the shots that made him spin around.

 

I also wonder if the cops were violating their own procedures. They should have been behind the doors of their cars I would think, not so exposed.

[Jenksismyhero]

[Kyyle23]

Yeah that guy has to be locked up for a long, long time. 10 seconds of shooting. No real lunge towards the cops. I mean maybe he thought the guy was going to throw the knife at him? McDonald starts to turn around like a discus thrower, but you can't tell when those first shots hit him so maybe it was the shots that made him spin around.

 

I also wonder if the cops were violating their own procedures. They should have been behind the doors of their cars I would think, not so exposed.

 

I think they said the first shot spun him around. There definitely wasn't a lunge, the kid was on another planet he had no idea what was going on. He was walking away from them but wasn't running or anything. They could have tasered or taken him down and arrested him, that was just cold blooded

[StrangeSox]

Holy s*** that video. Why on earth did it take over a year for charges?

[DrunkBomber]

They need to seriously consider obstruction charges or something for the cops who erased the surveillance footage at the Burger King.

[bmags]

FOP spokesman Pat Camden said McDonald was shot in the chest after he lunged at Van Dyke and his partner with a knife. "He is a very serious threat to the officers, and he leaves them no choice at that point to defend themselves," Camden said that night.

 

"When police tell you to drop a weapon, all you have to do is drop it."

 

@chicagotribune: 'This isn't about a stunning, isolated event. Zoom out,' via @Trib_ed_board https://t.co/ZoEmy53oYX https://t.co/41LYt4Y00X