White Sox still deciding on what to do

[Chisoxfn]

Not sure if this is the right spot for my rant, but I think we are in this bind because you have a power struggle within that is pushing us to have such an incoherent strategy. I think Jerry is old and wants to win and Kenny is aggressive but Rick is pushing his agenda as well so you end up with a relatively dysfunctional process. To be honest, I just want to see progress being made. I'm tired of watching a paper champ or paper solid team with vets suck. A few stars and a bunch of s*** doesn't excite me either (which is our current roster).

 

Lets turn the stars and load up on quality players and hopefully find a few new stars in the process. Do something to make baseball enjoyable again for me. I can't even stand watching most of the Sox games because they are such a stupid, awful fundamental baseball team that has a lot of players who are amongst the worst at their respective positions (but those players have very little upside and we have very little positional talent coming up in our system...cause we either can't draft it or can't develop it or a combo of both).

 

f***...I'm turning into Balta (and I like being a super optimist). By the way, I still think we can retool pretty quick cause our stars should command a kings ransom. I also don't think we have the right manager but I don't know that I can pinpoint why cause the team also has sucked (and a mgr can only do so much) but the poor fundamentals, I can't ignore. Stupid players sure, but also reeks of lack of preparation or the right messaging.

[LDF]

Not sure if this is the right spot for my rant, but I think we are in this bind because you have a power struggle within that is pushing us to have such an incoherent strategy. I think Jerry is old and wants to win and Kenny is aggressive but Rick is pushing his agenda as well so you end up with a relatively dysfunctional process. To be honest, I just want to see progress being made. I'm tired of watching a paper champ or paper solid team with vets suck. A few stars and a bunch of s*** doesn't excite me either (which is our current roster).

 

Lets turn the stars and load up on quality players and hopefully find a few new stars in the process. Do something to make baseball enjoyable again for me. I can't even stand watching most of the Sox games because they are such a stupid, awful fundamental baseball team that has a lot of players who are amongst the worst at their respective positions (but those players have very little upside and we have very little positional talent coming up in our system...cause we either can't draft it or can't develop it or a combo of both).

 

f***...I'm turning into Balta (and I like being a super optimist). By the way, I still think we can retool pretty quick cause our stars should command a kings ransom. I also don't think we have the right manager but I don't know that I can pinpoint why cause the team also has sucked (and a mgr can only do so much) but the poor fundamentals, I can't ignore. Stupid players sure, but also reeks of lack of preparation or the right messaging.

 

that became more obvious at the trade deadline, imho. so with that, does Hahn has to run everything past KW and the owners???

 

i still think a retool will work.

 

nice post.

[OmarComing25]

I honestly don't think selling off and blowing it up would bring back as much young talent as people are hoping for.

[Dick Allen]

I honestly don't think selling off and blowing it up would bring back as much young talent as people are hoping for.

And young "talent" has a way of disappointing. It wasn't long ago many were concerned about the date Matt Davidson had to wait so he wouldn't be a super 2.

 

If they traded Q, Sale, Abreu, and Robertson for prospects, they would IMO no doubt be considered a top 5 farm system in baseball.

 

If you look at the supposed top farm systems in baseball 4 or 5 years ago, and look at their top 10 prospects, there aren't very many of them making much of a contribution these days.

[greg775]

They should just come up with a plan of action and do the opposite. Don't forget they completely erred at the trade deadline, thinking they were in the race and standing pat.

 

It has to be tough, though. All they have is good starting pitching. And if you trade that, then suddenly you are weak there. Either way they are hosed. Stand pat and add a couple bodies and you might hit .500 if everybody clicks. Trade away a lot of the pitching and all of a sudden you have a 105-loss team. Good luck to Sox decision makers.

[shysocks]

Look again at the oft-cited offer Boston gave Seattle for Felix Hernandez. Seattle could have any five of these guys:

 

Clay Buchholz

Daniel Bard

Michael Bowden

Justin Masterson

Nick Hagadone

Josh Reddick

Yamaico Navarro

Felix Doubront

 

That would have been a haul at the time. Only three of those guys became anything in the majors and none has ever reached Felix's level. If the Sox blew it all up, they could do better than that or worse than that, but it would probably look about like that, with maybe 2 or 3 times the quantity of names when you add Q, Abreu, Eaton, et al to Sale.

 

There are so many options, but there's no guarantee a fire sale leaves us in better shape for, say, 2018 than we are now.

[harfman77]

The funny thing is this is demonstrating that this is exactly what Kenny is doing. He isn't saying this is our plan, or my plan. He is asking Rick Hahn for HIS plan.

 

Yes, and then having daily conversations about it instead of letting Rick do the things he needs to do. This situation is unprecedented for a White Sox GM, and similar situations have led to resignations from some other high profile GM's. He is asking for Ricks plan and then discussing it daily, which would mean that he has a lot of feedback to the way that Rick wants to operate.

[Dick Allen]

Yes, and then having daily conversations about it instead of letting Rick do the things he needs to do. This situation is unprecedented for a White Sox GM, and similar situations have led to resignations from some other high profile GM's. He is asking for Ricks plan and then discussing it daily, which would mean that he has a lot of feedback to the way that Rick wants to operate.

Do you think JR asked KW what his plan was? KW is Hahn's boss. I don't find it unusual they talk about what is going on. KW was Hahn's boss when he got the job. Go back to the articles announcing the new arrangement. Hahn knew exactly what he was getting into. Exactly.

 

I just don't understand the KW is dumb, Rick Hahn can do no wrong slant so many take. What is this based on besides nothing? Hahn was trained by JR and KW, the very two people some of Hahn's biggest fans think are total baseball morons. Hahn has been part of the White Sox decision process for years, has had numerous opportunities to jump ship, but didn't.

 

 

There isn't a GM in baseball that hasn't been overruled a few times by a higher up. That's life.

 

And you probably wouldn't have a problem with Hahn going on some radio show discussing what he has been discussing with other teams. But discuss that with his boss? Oh the humanity.

 

In fact, I'd take it one further, I would bet when KW was the GM, he discussed his conversations with other teams with Rick Hahn, his underling.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Dick Allen

[SCCWS]

Cubs management said almost exactly what was said here about a week ago, and no one said a thing about it. Theo and Jed are supposed to be meeting next week to decide on their plan.

 

Then again, they need bandaids and we need life-support.

 

[Chisoxfn]

And young "talent" has a way of disappointing. It wasn't long ago many were concerned about the date Matt Davidson had to wait so he wouldn't be a super 2.

 

If they traded Q, Sale, Abreu, and Robertson for prospects, they would IMO no doubt be considered a top 5 farm system in baseball.

 

If you look at the supposed top farm systems in baseball 4 or 5 years ago, and look at their top 10 prospects, there aren't very many of them making much of a contribution these days.

I agree...that is why the only reason it would work is if you traded for a plethora of young talent to where you could afford misses (cause they will happen). To me this is more about ensuring you have quality position talent then anything else and I think you don't have to necessarily trade everyone. If you traded Sale and got 4-5 guys that you thought were potential major leaguers and 1-2 with relatively elite prospects (and maybe already proven to an extent to be solid), then you could fill multiple holes while only opening up 1 hole (and at an area that is relatively strong anyway and where we have a track record of internal success developing pitching).

[SCCWS]

Look again at the oft-cited offer Boston gave Seattle for Felix Hernandez. Seattle could have any five of these guys:

 

Clay Buchholz

Daniel Bard

Michael Bowden

Justin Masterson

Nick Hagadone

Josh Reddick

Yamaico Navarro

Felix Doubront

 

That would have been a haul at the time. Only three of those guys became anything in the majors and none has ever reached Felix's level. If the Sox blew it all up, they could do better than that or worse than that, but it would probably look about like that, with maybe 2 or 3 times the quantity of names when you add Q, Abreu, Eaton, et al to Sale.

 

There are so many options, but there's no guarantee a fire sale leaves us in better shape for, say, 2018 than we are now.

 

How do you think that was a haul. Buchholz was in his first season and was a Top 5 prospect in MLB but none of the other players were even top 50 MLB prospect in 2008/2009. Masterson, Bard and Doubront all made the majors and stuck for some time but they were not top MLB prospects. Now I don't think Sale will be traded. But if so to say the Red Sox, Hahn should want established young ML talent not prospects. I can see why Seattle turned this down.

 

[Baron]

And young "talent" has a way of disappointing. It wasn't long ago many were concerned about the date Matt Davidson had to wait so he wouldn't be a super 2.

 

If they traded Q, Sale, Abreu, and Robertson for prospects, they would IMO no doubt be considered a top 5 farm system in baseball.

 

If you look at the supposed top farm systems in baseball 4 or 5 years ago, and look at their top 10 prospects, there aren't very many of them making much of a contribution these days.

 

That's the overall problem. Just wait until those prospects start failing. People that were for selling those players will be jumping the ship rapidly. Ontop of that we'll be in whose shape than we are now.

[LDF]

And young "talent" has a way of disappointing. It wasn't long ago many were concerned about the date Matt Davidson had to wait so he wouldn't be a super 2.

 

If they traded Q, Sale, Abreu, and Robertson for prospects, they would IMO no doubt be considered a top 5 farm system in baseball.

 

If you look at the supposed top farm systems in baseball 4 or 5 years ago, and look at their top 10 prospects, there aren't very many of them making much of a contribution these days.

 

in my opinion there is one major thing wrong in this post. but don't get me wrong, you stated the obvious, the players rtn many yr later.

 

the main point is, it would be wishful hoping that all prospects / players that came from a big trade will amount to become susperstars or above avg players. i am and i think that most are hoping that they all become useful, quality players.... maybe one becomes a better that quality player. the results i am looking at is did they fill in a gap that was needed and did they contribute to the team in a useful way, and yes i am also including a useful hitting stat.

[LDF]

I agree...that is why the only reason it would work is if you traded for a plethora of young talent to where you could afford misses (cause they will happen). To me this is more about ensuring you have quality position talent then anything else and I think you don't have to necessarily trade everyone. If you traded Sale and got 4-5 guys that you thought were potential major leaguers and 1-2 with relatively elite prospects (and maybe already proven to an extent to be solid), then you could fill multiple holes while only opening up 1 hole (and at an area that is relatively strong anyway and where we have a track record of internal success developing pitching).

 

this idea of this kind of trade is to get players who can, as you said fill in holes and let the rest of the minor league develop its players without rushing.

[shysocks]

How do you think that was a haul. Buchholz was in his first season and was a Top 5 prospect in MLB but none of the other players were even top 50 MLB prospect in 2008/2009. Masterson, Bard and Doubront all made the majors and stuck for some time but they were not top MLB prospects. Now I don't think Sale will be traded. But if so to say the Red Sox, Hahn should want established young ML talent not prospects. I can see why Seattle turned this down.

I think you're understating the hype around Bard at the time, as a first round pick who was lighting it up. Reddick was top 100. Bowden was #31 in at least one publication. Hagadone would be top 50 the following year. Masterson had already made an impact in the majors.

 

We can argue the definition of haul, but it's certainly not a BS offer, and I don't know why we'd expect much more for Sale. I'd want the Sox to turn it down too.

[elrockinMT]

Agreed. Although....... reading this board could be entertaining to the FO after having a few drinks.

 

 

Pass the bottle!!!

 

[BlackSox13]

Pass the bottle!!!

[Chisoxfn]

That's the overall problem. Just wait until those prospects start failing. People that were for selling those players will be jumping the ship rapidly. Ontop of that we'll be in whose shape than we are now.

The real question (for the front office) is whether we think the odds are greater of building / finding positional talent to surround our existing stars or are we better off moving those stars to get positional talent to improve. Or said another way, if we move Sale for a haul and those prospects bust, are we really in that different of a position as having Sale with a lot of lousy position players all around? Either way we are really bad and fast forward 2 years and Sale's contract isn't the big bargain it once was.

 

I really think it comes down to, does the front office realistically think it can put the pieces around Sale / Q and the rest of the rotation and Abreu / Eaton to be legitimate contenders? And if so, can you do it relatively quickly. If that answer is no (because you don't think you have the right timing from your internal prospects and/or don't have the prospects in-house, nor do you have the resources to get said talent (FA / Trade) from other teams, then I think you need to move some of your proven pitching to try an alternate route.

 

We are 59 games under .500 over the last three years and that is while Sale / Q / Abreu have been bonafide stars and during that span we've tried ways to surround them with better players, but in general we have failed. Maybe we should go with a different strategy. And in terms of Seattle...yeah, maybe that trade with Boston would have been lousy, but Seattle has sucked anyway, so does it really matter that they have King Felix.

 

Also, just picking 3 players from that package (Reddick / Masterson / Buchholz). Since 2012, the three of them have an accumulated WAR of 22.5 while King Felix has had 21.1. This whole analysis is flawed and high-level, but it also doesn't reflect the $ value savings of the team with the other players, resources, which could then go into filling other holes (because you have solid players across the board). And obviously I'm just picking a random 3 year sample size and it isn't necessarily reflective of the period that the Mariners would have gotten, but either way, the Mariners have stayed in hell, so by not making the move I'd argue did they really separate themselves. If they went for it and whiffed, well, they still have no payroll constraints and are in a process of rebuilding (just one less star)...still a long way either way. Had they hit though, could have actually changed things (who knows).

 

You also never know how a guy performs in an alternate scenario. And at different points in time you could have spun Clay or Masterson for other talent as well (as you ensured your roster was tooled to your liking).

[cabiness42]

Agreed. Although....... reading this board could be entertaining to the FO after having a few drinks.

 

November in PHT does start to look very similar to the Drunk thread in SLaM.

[Soxfest]

Sox brass has had a month and a half too make a plan

[Baron]

The thing is Chisoxfn I would be more comfortable with a total rebuild if it wasnt the same people organizing it that were just screaming playoffs last year. So you guys failed. Now we have to wallow in misery for a few years because your moves put us in this position? That shouldnt make anyone feel confident that they'll get this right. I have almost zero faith that even if they get the right prospects that they have the right coaching staff in place to help them develop.

 

Any Front Office who seemingly puts a team in position for playoffs and fails shouldnt have a shot at a rebuild. You've already demonstrated that there's huge flaws in the way you scout/sign players and develop them.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Baron

[LDF]

The thing is Chisoxfn I would be more comfortable with a total rebuild if it wasnt the same people organizing it that were just screaming playoffs last year. So you guys failed. Now we have to wallow in misery for a few years because your moves put us in this position? That shouldnt make anyone feel confident that they'll get this right. I have almost zero faith that even if they get the right prospects that they have the right coaching staff in place to help them develop.

 

Any Front Office who seemingly puts a team in position for playoffs and fails shouldnt have a shot at a rebuild. You've already demonstrated that there's huge flaws in the way you scout/sign players and develop them.

 

i am going to play devil's advocate and ask these question.

 

1. could the sox know that it was far fetched to make the playoff and was hoping to sell tickets??

 

2. did they really think the team had a chance but was snake-bit by a lousy start??

 

obviously they didn't think it was RV failure b/c they gave him another chance to manage,

[chitownsportsfan]

Until the team gets a proven organizational strategy to develop young position players I'm not sure I really want them trading away assets for prospects in a rebuild scenario. Something is amiss in their development of position players.

 

That said, blowing it up should be on the table, nobody should be untouchable when the team is this bad and this far away from contending.

[Baron]

i am going to play devil's advocate and ask these question.

 

1. could the sox know that it was far fetched to make the playoff and was hoping to sell tickets??

 

2. did they really think the team had a chance but was snake-bit by a lousy start??

 

obviously they didn't think it was RV failure b/c they gave him another chance to manage,

 

Well if they thought it was far fetched they sure did waist alot of money for this mirage.

[LDF]

Well if they thought it was far fetched they sure did waist alot of money for this mirage.

 

and with anything dealing with professional org, we the fans will not know what the bottom line is in income or to be precise what was the total profit was from the investment part. so all that is an assumption.