White Sox still deciding on what to do

[Balta1701]

f***...I'm turning into Balta (and I like being a super optimist). By the way, I still think we can retool pretty quick cause our stars should command a kings ransom. I also don't think we have the right manager but I don't know that I can pinpoint why cause the team also has sucked (and a mgr can only do so much) but the poor fundamentals, I can't ignore. Stupid players sure, but also reeks of lack of preparation or the right messaging.

fathom would probably tell you that I spent like my first 5-6 years here being the optimist to his pessimist.

[LDF]

 

i really have this question to ask and i am not directing it against anyone, but i am curious and lost.

 

rebuild vs retool.

 

when does one become the other???

[LDF]

fathom would probably tell you that I spent like my first 5-6 years here being the optimist to his pessimist.

 

and i spent my time here in the beginning defending the owners against the mass. now with the WS win, it appears as the mass has become the owners defenders.

[Chisoxfn]

fathom would probably tell you that I spent like my first 5-6 years here being the optimist to his pessimist.

It should prove another point. I have a good buddy who we argue with insessantly and we have a theory, when we are on the same page of an argument, we have to be right. I think in this case, Balta, where we align strategically on the position of the org, we are probably right (and that is an unfortunate thing given where we are siding), haha.

 

And I do remember all your years of optimism.

[Balta1701]

i am going to play devil's advocate and ask these question.

 

1. could the sox know that it was far fetched to make the playoff and was hoping to sell tickets??

 

2. did they really think the team had a chance but was snake-bit by a lousy start??

 

obviously they didn't think it was RV failure b/c they gave him another chance to manage,

The problem continues to be that they "SHOULD" have understood it was far fetched to make the playoffs. For that team to make the playoffs they needed an enormous number of things to go right - including things that don't happen. When you buy multiple veterans on the FA market, some of them fail. We needed all of them to succeed to even have a shot, and even then we could have been outgunned easily by the Royals. We needed everyone to stay healthy - which by some miracle actually did happen. We needed our own guys to develop rapidly, which didn't happen, but which is another failure that comes back to them - either failure to find them coaches that could help them succeed or a failure to understand how likely our own guys were to fall flat on their faces.

 

I keep using the putting your mortgage up as collateral in Vegas metaphor. You're not dead if you lose your house, you still have your health, and there is a finite chance you could win. But if your bet goes wrong...you better know exactly what you're going to do if you lose your house.

[LDF]

The problem continues to be that they "SHOULD" have understood it was far fetched to make the playoffs. For that team to make the playoffs they needed an enormous number of things to go right - including things that don't happen. When you buy multiple veterans on the FA market, some of them fail. We needed all of them to succeed to even have a shot, and even then we could have been outgunned easily by the Royals. We needed everyone to stay healthy - which by some miracle actually did happen. We needed our own guys to develop rapidly, which didn't happen, but which is another failure that comes back to them - either failure to find them coaches that could help them succeed or a failure to understand how likely our own guys were to fall flat on their faces.

 

I keep using the putting your mortgage up as collateral in Vegas metaphor. You're not dead if you lose your house, you still have your health, and there is a finite chance you could win. But if your bet goes wrong...you better know exactly what you're going to do if you lose your house.

 

good point and a nice slant on this discussion of where the sox went wrong..... since the season was thought to have been lost.

 

so which answer will be right or wrong???

 

me, i go back to preseason of last yr when the sox lost to the sCrubs badly when the the sCrubs were only playing their backups. but it was all verify when the sox had a lousy start and a play called wrong which was shown on the replay and RV did not do anything ......

 

in other words, bad luck.

Edited November 18, 2015 by LDF

[Whisox05]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/11/19/baf...kenny-williams/

[LittleHurt05]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/11/19/baf...kenny-williams/

 

I can't believe Tim Baffoe turned being a B & B favorite caller into a full writing gig.

[dpd9189]

Am I the only one who thinks Hahn wants to blow it up and do a Astros/Cubs rebuild but KW and JR are standing in the way of it?

[Y2Jimmy0]

Am I the only one who thinks Hahn wants to blow it up and do a Astros/Cubs rebuild but KW and JR are standing in the way of it?

 

 

He doesn't want to trade Eaton, Abreu, Rodon, Q, and Sale. I don't think he was totally on board with signing DRob, LaRoche, and Melky though.

[LittleHurt05]

Am I the only one who thinks Hahn wants to blow it up and do a Astros/Cubs rebuild but KW and JR are standing in the way of it?

 

I don't know if he wants he to go full blown rebuild like Astros/Cubs, but it is pretty well known that Hahn is much more willing to throw in the towel for a year or two to rebuild, while KW/JR want to go for it every season. See Cabrera, Melky.

[The Ginger Kid]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/11/19/baf...kenny-williams/

he nailed it. Time for williams to STFU

[OmarComing25]

I really doubt Hahn wants to do a scorched earth rebuild. You can rebuild without blowing it up, which I think Hahn wants to do.

[Jerksticks]

Wait so we should believe this interview? Haha. Isn't this just an obvious smokescreen to make other GMs feel like they'd have to overpay for a good piece of ours?

 

You can't honestly think they are undecided after months of working on this. That makes zero sense. Or whatever is less than zero. Smart guys work for the white sox, not zoo animals.

[Dunt]

He doesn't want to trade Eaton, Abreu, Rodon, Q, and Sale. I don't think he was totally on board with signing DRob, LaRoche, and Melky though.

 

This.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I'm just afraid we're wasting careers of our stars so I'm kind of wanting to just blow it up. In order for this team to become a title contender they'd need to add about $40 mil in payroll or so.

[LDF]

I'm just afraid we're wasting careers of our stars so I'm kind of wanting to just blow it up. In order for this team to become a title contender they'd need to add about $40 mil in payroll or so.

 

pretty much happen in the early 90's with that sox team. just add the $$$$

[rowand's rowdies]

Even a child knows when there is a turd in the toliet, you flush it.

 

We have solid starting pitching and to some extent a solid bullpen. Add a few low risk low cost arms to compete for both and otherwise don't touch them. If you can trade Danks without eating much $, of course go ahead, but otherwise let it play out and hope the lottery ticket prospect we get for him at the trade deadline becomes a cult hero.

 

The offense & defense of this team are a joke. We have Abreu, a RH cleanup hitter who can play a decent 1B or DH. We have Eaton, a solid leadoff hitter and OK CF. We have the ace's pet Flowers who I am actually fine with as a backup catcher who catches for Chris. We have a couple utility grade infielders in Saladino and Sanchez. We have a guy that might be an OK 4th OF in Trayce Thompson. That's it.

 

Trade the rest for what you can. If you don't want to sell low on those guys then I suggest reading up on the "Sunken Cost Fallacy" and improve your own life in the process. A sunk cost is exactly that. Don't sink future cost into a lost cause.

 

This offseason should be about bringing in the 10-12 best options we can to try out for our many open positions - C, 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, RF, LF, OF. Focus on guys who can play defense AND hit. Bring in a new attitude & culture.

 

Let's do this!

[Kyyle23]

pretty much happen in the early 90's with that sox team. just add the $$$$

 

No, it was the late 90s when that happened. The early 90s they were on track to do some serious damage until the strike

[Jose Abreu]

No, it was the late 90s when that happened. The early 90s they were on track to do some serious damage until the strike

Who knows what that 94 team could have been

[harfman77]

Do you think JR asked KW what his plan was? KW is Hahn's boss. I don't find it unusual they talk about what is going on. KW was Hahn's boss when he got the job. Go back to the articles announcing the new arrangement. Hahn knew exactly what he was getting into. Exactly.

 

I just don't understand the KW is dumb, Rick Hahn can do no wrong slant so many take. What is this based on besides nothing? Hahn was trained by JR and KW, the very two people some of Hahn's biggest fans think are total baseball morons. Hahn has been part of the White Sox decision process for years, has had numerous opportunities to jump ship, but didn't.

 

 

There isn't a GM in baseball that hasn't been overruled a few times by a higher up. That's life.

 

And you probably wouldn't have a problem with Hahn going on some radio show discussing what he has been discussing with other teams. But discuss that with his boss? Oh the humanity.

 

In fact, I'd take it one further, I would bet when KW was the GM, he discussed his conversations with other teams with Rick Hahn, his underling.

 

Sure KW reported to JR when he had Ricks job, but now has to deal with KW and JR. Its not that Hahn can do no wrong, it would just be nice to see what he could do without be saddled with KW and his ego. KW had his run, his legacy is a line of wildly inconsistent rosters, robbing tomorrow to pay for today. When Hahn took over the moves he orchestrated were aimed at building consistency within the organization, but then we saw a flutter of moves that contradicted that strategy so that question becomes is someone else pulling the strings or is Hahn too undisciplined to stick with his own plan? There is no way to know on the outside, but when you see some of the trademarks of KW's administration rearing their head its a natural assumption that KW is still pulling the strings that stand in the way of Hahn's plan. And when you are mixed between two plans, there is no real path to success, the team ends up in purgatory, not good enough to make the playoffs and not bad enough to add franchising altering talent in the draft and Intl FA.

[Dick Allen]

Sure KW reported to JR when he had Ricks job, but now has to deal with KW and JR. Its not that Hahn can do no wrong, it would just be nice to see what he could do without be saddled with KW and his ego. KW had his run, his legacy is a line of wildly inconsistent rosters, robbing tomorrow to pay for today. When Hahn took over the moves he orchestrated were aimed at building consistency within the organization, but then we saw a flutter of moves that contradicted that strategy so that question becomes is someone else pulling the strings or is Hahn too undisciplined to stick with his own plan? There is no way to know on the outside, but when you see some of the trademarks of KW's administration rearing their head its a natural assumption that KW is still pulling the strings that stand in the way of Hahn's plan. And when you are mixed between two plans, there is no real path to success, the team ends up in purgatory, not good enough to make the playoffs and not bad enough to add franchising altering talent in the draft and Intl FA.

And the robbing tomorrow to pay for today is tired as well. Yeah he traded a lot of prospects. The vast majority of which sucked.

 

I wouldn't mind if KW hit the road, but to think he is saddling Hahn, or another site I read said his quotes were "throwing him under a bus" are just made up based on nothing observations.

 

Whether people want to admit it or not, JR is a pretty smart guy, and he has better access to KW/RH than any of us here. If he thought KW was the problem many here like to think he is, he would be gone in a minute. Hahn isn't a puppet. I don't believe KW when he said he has never overruled Hahn, I have a good source that says he has at least once, but sometimes a differing opinion and discussion is positive in the decision making process.

[BlackSox13]

The Sox don't have a plan!!! Lite the torches, its time to storm Castle Reinsdorf!!!

[LDF]

And the robbing tomorrow to pay for today is tired as well. Yeah he traded a lot of prospects. The vast majority of which sucked.

 

I wouldn't mind if KW hit the road, but to think he is saddling Hahn, or another site I read said his quotes were "throwing him under a bus" are just made up based on nothing observations.

 

Whether people want to admit it or not, JR is a pretty smart guy, and he has better access to KW/RH than any of us here. If he thought KW was the problem many here like to think he is, he would be gone in a minute. Hahn isn't a puppet. I don't believe KW when he said he has never overruled Hahn, I have a good source that says he has at least once, but sometimes a differing opinion and discussion is positive in the decision making process.

 

ref the bold, i like it....

 

you make a compelling counter .... nice.

 

but last yr, i would say i was one of those who thought he threw Hahn under the bus, based on the indecision that came around the trading deadline. other than that, this is a new offseason and as you pointed out, no one knows.

 

i am just wondering how much input kw is having other than the job responsibility of his job, in deciding this time of retool or rebuild.

[LDF]

The Sox don't have a plan!!! Lite the torches, its time to storm Castle Reinsdorf!!!

 

sign me up!!!!