"The White Sox, Black Holes, and Trading Quintana

[LDF]

Gordon isn't a guy that I've thought about trading for, but he is really good. He just lacks pop.

 

A 1-2 of Gordon and Eaton would be awesome though.

 

yeah but for an infielder who has pop, that is a rarity.

 

but as you said, he is not available. but i can dream.

 

have you look into the mets system??? they have a load system of good defense ss.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I'd be interested Gordon. Haven't thought about him since they just got him last season but it is the Marlins so who knows.

[Jose Abreu]

The thing about including LaRoche/Danks in some of these trades is, while you are shedding salary and a bad player, it's taking away from the return you get- especially when they're included in a proposed Sale/Quintana trade. I wouldn't include them in those deals because I don't want to take away from Sale's/Quintana's enormous value.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

The thing about including LaRoche/Danks in some of these trades is, while you are shedding salary and a bad player, it's taking away from the return you get- especially when they're included in a proposed Sale/Quintana trade. I wouldn't include them in those deals because I don't want to take away from Sale's/Quintana's enormous value.

While that is true, how else are the Sox supposed to get rid of them?

[TheTruth05]

While that is true, how else are the Sox supposed to get rid of them?

 

Eat money(laroche)/move to bullpen (danks)

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Eat money(laroche)/move to bullpen (danks)

The Sox might as well keep them I guess, as both of them are gone after 2016 anyways.

 

I'd rather just hold onto them than trade them for another bad contract that has a commitment beyond 2016.

[TheTruth05]

The Sox might as well keep them I guess, as both of them are gone after 2016 anyways.

 

I'd rather just hold onto them than trade them for another bad contract that has a commitment beyond 2016.

 

This is why it's not such a big deal if they are on the roster, that money frees up after next season anyway. Laroche is a candidate to have a bounce back season and Danks is only a liability for the Sox for 1 more year.

[Special K]

This is why it's not such a big deal if they are on the roster, that money frees up after next season anyway. Laroche is a candidate to have a bounce back season and Danks is only a liability for the Sox for 1 more year.

 

From what I saw of LaRoche last season, I'm fairly certain he's the worst player in history of baseball ever. I do not think it's possible to have a bounce back season. Don't think we can trade him either unless the other GM somehow went crazy. Best to let him rot on the pine, move Avi to DH to focus on hitting, and give Trayce a shot.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

From what I saw of LaRoche last season, I'm fairly certain he's the worst player in history of baseball ever. I do not think it's possible to have a bounce back season. Don't think we can trade him either unless the other GM somehow went crazy. Best to let him rot on the pine, move Avi to DH to focus on hitting, and give Trayce a shot.

Isn't this exactly what everyone said about Adam Dunn after the 2011 season? He rebounded to have a somewhat good season in 2012.

 

I'm not saying that LaRoche will win the MVP in 2016, but I'm pretty sure that he'll be better than he was last year.

[GGajewski18]

From what I saw of LaRoche last season, I'm fairly certain he's the worst player in history of baseball ever. I do not think it's possible to have a bounce back season. Don't think we can trade him either unless the other GM somehow went crazy. Best to let him rot on the pine, move Avi to DH to focus on hitting, and give Trayce a shot.

 

Lol, step back from the ledge. LaRoche isn't the worst player on the Sox. LaRoche has had a pretty decent career, he was just bad last season.

[Special K]

Isn't this exactly what everyone said about Adam Dunn after the 2011 season? He rebounded to have a somewhat good season in 2012.

 

I'm not saying that LaRoche will win the MVP in 2016, but I'm pretty sure that he'll be better than he was last year.

 

I'm not saying there won't be a slight improvement, but at this point, I'm not counting on it. As far as the comparison to Dunn goes, wasn't his knee also ailing him in 2011? I believe there were also some family issues, so there was some sort of explanation for his poor year. I haven't heard anything that might account for LaRoche's play other than the fact that he is just isn't good anymore.

[GreenSox]

Worrying about 2016 is the exact same thing the Sox have been doing since 2010...and it's gotten them nowhere.

Build.

If someone offers them premium for EAton, Sale or Q, consider it.

Should be able to make a move in 2017

 

As for Dee Gordon, he was acquired for essentially one year of Howie Kendrick. Or for Montas (Dodgers overpaid for 1 year of Howie Kendrick). However you want to look at it.

Edited November 20, 2015 by GreenSox

[OmarComing25]

I'm not saying there won't be a slight improvement, but at this point, I'm not counting on it. As far as the comparison to Dunn goes, wasn't his knee also ailing him in 2011? I believe there were also some family issues, so there was some sort of explanation for his poor year. I haven't heard anything that might account for LaRoche's play other than the fact that he is just isn't good anymore.

LaRoche was clearly not 100% healthy in the last few months of the season. No one is expecting career averages LaRoche next year, but s*** happens, poor years happen, he was pretty good just two years ago, it's not unthinkable he can bounce back to something like .750-.775 OPS, especially if Robin limits his ABs against LHP, which I think he will (Thompson likely starts those days, with Melky taking the DH spot).

[ChiSox59]

LaRoche was clearly not 100% healthy in the last few months of the season. No one is expecting career averages LaRoche next year, but s*** happens, poor years happen, he was pretty good just two years ago, it's not unthinkable he can bounce back to something like .750-.775 OPS, especially if Robin limits his ABs against LHP, which I think he will (Thompson likely starts those days, with Melky taking the DH spot).

 

You'd sure think so, but it wouldn't be the first time Robin has chosen not to follow clear platoons. Obviously LaRoche didn't play much in the 2nd half, but it wouldn't shock me in the least to see him get starts against LHP early.

 

Melky needs to be the DH as often as possible.

[OmarComing25]

You'd sure think so, but it wouldn't be the first time Robin has chosen not to follow clear platoons. Obviously LaRoche didn't play much in the 2nd half, but it wouldn't shock me in the least to see him get starts against LHP early.

 

Melky needs to be the DH as often as possible.

Conor had only 15 PA against LHP this year, that gives me the confidence that Robin will platoon LaRoche, especially because it's the last year of his contract, there's no need to "justify" the salary anymore. But you're right, it wouldn't be that surprising if he didn't.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Sure would like to be a fly on the wall for these Q discussions. Wonder how many teams are asking and talking about him. Everything is so quiet I'm very intrigued.

[LDF]

Sure would like to be a fly on the wall for these Q discussions. Wonder how many teams are asking and talking about him. Everything is so quiet I'm very intrigued.

 

yeah there is no way i am good at the conversation comedy unlike some poster who did it last yr.

 

but a conversation on kw and hahn arguing and having one of the owners, (jr) come in and have to put both of them in time out....

[Balta1701]

Conor had only 15 PA against LHP this year, that gives me the confidence that Robin will platoon LaRoche, especially because it's the last year of his contract, there's no need to "justify" the salary anymore. But you're right, it wouldn't be that surprising if he didn't.

That was also in no small part because Beckham was actually hitting well the first month of the season and Robin was playing the hot hand.

[Vance Law]

Conor had only 15 PA against LHP this year, that gives me the confidence that Robin will platoon LaRoche, especially because it's the last year of his contract, there's no need to "justify" the salary anymore. But you're right, it wouldn't be that surprising if he didn't.

 

Thank you. I've made the same point many times. A free agent (especially LaRoche coming off his strong 2014 season) has choices about what team he wants to go to. The player and his representatives meet with representatives from various teams, talk about salary, contract length etc.

 

Is it plausible to believe that LaRoche signed the 2 year $25 million deal with the understanding that he'd be a platoon player? No it is not. Playing LaRoche every day is the price of doing business when he put up an .817 OPS in 2014 while playing against lefties. LaRoche's historically terrible performance provided the Sox the pretext to platoon him. Which they will do if he's on the team in 2016.

[witesoxfan]

I wanted to post this in the offseason plan thread, but it got closed for some reason, so I'll post it here instead.

 

Here is my plan for the offseason.

 

• Trade Avisail Garcia for Billy Hamilton

• Trade Jose Quintana and Adam LaRoche for Yasiel Puig, Scott Van Slyke, and Austin Barnes

• Trade Chris Beck and Tyler Danish for Jurickson Profar

• Sign David Freese to a 3 year/$30 million deal

• Sign Doug Fister to a 1 year/$5 million deal

 

 

Were my proposals bad?

 

I tried to keep it somewhat realistic.

 

Yes.

 

-Billy Hamilton, in a down year, put up 1.9 WAR. He is never going to be much of a hitter, but he is a super stud defensively and an incredible baserunner. Garcia is an average hitter with no other discernible assets. The Reds would not make that trade.

-The Dodgers have all the money in the world. Why waste your player assets for a 3-4 WAR pitcher when you can just spend $200 million on a 4-5 WAR pitcher? Nevermind that they have no use whatsoever for Adam LaRoche, who has negative value right now.

-I won't say anything about Chris Beck and Tyler Danish for Jurickson Profar, but it's generally not a common practice to trade a prospect at his lowest unless you have absolutely no room for him on the 40-man roster and/or the 25-man roster, depending upon options.

-David Freese will be 33 years old next year. Signing a guy to a 3 year deal for his ages 33, 34, and 35 seasons is not typically wise practice, as we've seen from the Sox in the past 5-8 years or so. I won't say I'm completely opposed to the Sox bringing in a 3B or perhaps even Freese himself, but it's something I think they should shy away from.

-If Fister ends up taking a 1 year deal worth $5 million, I'd probably eat a keyboard or something. Beyond that, I'm not sure he's the best fit for a team whose defense is pretty terrible.

 

[Jose Abreu]

I believe I've said this before, but including LaRoche in a deal with Quintana (in theory) only diminishes the value of the return you'd get for Quintana, so I'd shy away from it. Plus, I doubt anyone wants LaRoche, especially NL teams (no DH).

[ChiSox59]

I believe I've said this before, but including LaRoche in a deal with Quintana (in theory) only diminishes the value of the return you'd get for Quintana, so I'd shy away from it. Plus, I doubt anyone wants LaRoche, especially NL teams (no DH).

 

That's obvious, but a team like the Dodgers may actually just be willing to eat LaRoches full $13M. Generally, I agree, the Sox would all things equal be able to get more for Q without including LaRoche, but if you can still get a package like Puig plus three of the following players: Van Slyke, Guerrero, Austin Barnes, or other top 10 LAD prospect, it may make some sense. No other team would eat LaRoche's contract without significantly lowering the return, however.

[ChiSox59]

-The Dodgers have all the money in the world. Why waste your player assets for a 3-4 WAR pitcher when you can just spend $200 million on a 4-5 WAR pitcher? Nevermind that they have no use whatsoever for Adam LaRoche, who has negative value right now.

 

It goes both ways. Yes, the Dodgers have all the money in the world - but they also have several spare/excess pieces that the Sox could use (see my previous post). They may prefer to just go out and sign David Price, or they may prefer to give up a package of players to acquire Jose Quintana and his $8.5M AAV over the next four seasons and LaRoche's $13M in 2016. Saves them a ton of doe to spend elsewhere.

 

Just look at what they did last season...Signed Hector Olivera, ate $28M and traded him; ate the tens of millions owed to Matt Latos, Mike Morse and Bronson Arroyo (all of which had zero and negative trade value).

 

Not saying the Dodgers have interest in LaRoche, but they've done much crazier things with their $. If they really want Q so they can spend their money elsewhere, it wouldn't be all that shocking.

[witesoxfan]

It goes both ways. Yes, the Dodgers have all the money in the world - but they also have several spare/excess pieces that the Sox could use (see my previous post). They may prefer to just go out and sign David Price, or they may prefer to give up a package of players to acquire Jose Quintana and his $8.5M AAV over the next four seasons and LaRoche's $13M in 2016. Saves them a ton of doe to spend elsewhere.

 

Just look at what they did last season...Signed Hector Olivera, ate $28M and traded him; ate the tens of millions owed to Matt Latos, Mike Morse and Bronson Arroyo (all of which had zero and negative trade value).

 

Not saying the Dodgers have interest in LaRoche, but they've done much crazier things with their $. If they really want Q so they can spend their money elsewhere, it wouldn't be all that shocking.

 

The Dodgers made those moves to eat salary to pick up surplus value elsewhere. Their surplus value in this instance would be giving up very little to acquire Jose Quintana by also eating Adam LaRoche's contract. Do you think it is in the White Sox best interest to negate the possible surplus value they can receive in Jose Quintana by packaging $15 mill in the deadweight contract of Adam LaRoche with him? Adam LaRoche is not going to kill the White Sox financially this year, they may able to acquire at least someone for him at the deadline, and he's clean of their hands at the end of 2016 regardless.

 

To your last point, you are correct that the Dodgers have done crazier things with their money. The White Sox have not. That is a Marlins' sort of move.

[ChiSox59]

The Dodgers made those moves to eat salary to pick up surplus value elsewhere. Their surplus value in this instance would be giving up very little to acquire Jose Quintana by also eating Adam LaRoche's contract. Do you think it is in the White Sox best interest to negate the possible surplus value they can receive in Jose Quintana by packaging $15 mill in the deadweight contract of Adam LaRoche with him? Adam LaRoche is not going to kill the White Sox financially this year, they may able to acquire at least someone for him at the deadline, and he's clean of their hands at the end of 2016 regardless.

 

To your last point, you are correct that the Dodgers have done crazier things with their money. The White Sox have not. That is a Marlins' sort of move.

 

No, I don't think the scenario you outlined is in the Sox best interest. But I also don't think $13M negates Quintana's surplus value. $13M to the Dodgers is like $100 to you and I.

 

I am not even suggesting the Sox do it. But if they were able to get a package of players including Puig and Barnes for Q, AND were able to dump LaRoche on the Dodgers in the same trade...it may make some sense, but its probably a pipe dream.