Behind the narrative - A process underway

[NorthSideSox72]

Our own Brian Bilek wrote a thought-provoking piece about the White Sox front office, looking at where the current narratives do - and don't - fit with the realities. This one should spark some interesting discussion.

 

What are your thoughts on this? It's a pretty long piece, but is worth reading in full. How accurate are the narratives?

 

[NorthSideSox72]

Wow, no comments on this? Kinda surprised.

 

 

[shysocks]

Wow, no comments on this? Kinda surprised.

I was trying to come up with one earlier without stirring up a potential s***storm but I couldn't figure out a way and then I got sidetracked.

 

Basically, while this...

Whether you think [Williams and Hahn] should coexist is irrelevant but what should be noted is how Reinsdorf allowed them to continue to coexist.

...is true - what I think is and should be irrelevant to the Sox org - I don't think the point can be handwaved away so easily. I think the continued employment of Kenny Williams is at the heart of a lot of the loyalty complaints. Many people don't feel KW has justified his role as Reinsdorf's "trusted right-hand man" for so long.

 

I agree with most of the piece, particularly that the exercise of trying to assign the org's moves between Hahn and KW is pointless at best.

[iamshack]

Very well written, Brian!

[OmarComing25]

Great write-up, thanks a lot. I agree that many of the people running out the old complaints and narratives have missed that the White Sox have clearly been trying to address these issues, often for many years, and that it will take a long time to see the results of these changes. One complaint in particular that I want to address is the White Sox being cheap. Yes, for years they clearly went cheap when it came to the draft, but that has thankfully changed now. However, when it comes to payroll this complaint has been pretty much unfounded.

 

Rank in MLB by payroll for the last decade for the Sox:

 

2015: 15th

2014: 20th

2013: 8th

2012: 11th

2011: 5th

2010: 7th

2009: 12th

2008: 5th

2007: 5th

2006: 4th

 

Only 1 year in the bottom half, which was a rebuilding year. 6 times in the top 10, and 4 times in the top 5. Not bad for a team that struggles with attendance as much as we do. Sox might not give out a lot of huge contracts, but that's mostly a good thing, not a bad thing.

[gatnom]

As always, I appreciate raBBit's insight into the organization.

 

But, I think it paints a far too rosy picture of it. As shysocks points out, a lot of the problems this article mentions the Sox fixing are directly attributable to KW (and to a lesser extent Hahn). Any rational fan would see that they have been trying to fix their problems, but at the same time the reason we're losing games now is the direct result of their actions in previous years. It's hard to say exactly how much it was really worth keeping them both around.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that accumulating all this human capital shouldn't be taken for granted as a positive. I understand you were mostly trying to dispel the myth that JR is cheap, but quite frankly I don't care how much he pays his executives if they can't put a good team on the field. To this point, they haven't.

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I was trying to come up with one earlier without stirring up a potential s***storm but I couldn't figure out a way and then I got sidetracked.

 

Basically, while this...

 

...is true - what I think is and should be irrelevant to the Sox org - I don't think the point can be handwaved away so easily. I think the continued employment of Kenny Williams is at the heart of a lot of the loyalty complaints. Many people don't feel KW has justified his role as Reinsdorf's "trusted right-hand man" for so long.

 

I agree with most of the piece, particularly that the exercise of trying to assign the org's moves between Hahn and KW is pointless at best.

 

I tend to be in the camp with you that Kenny has caused some issues and probably needs to go.

 

As always, I appreciate raBBit's insight into the organization.

 

But, I think it paints a far too rosy picture of it. As shysocks points out, a lot of the problems this article mentions the Sox fixing are directly attributable to KW (and to a lesser extent Hahn). Any rational fan would see that they have been trying to fix their problems, but at the same time the reason we're losing games now is the direct result of their actions in previous years. It's hard to say exactly how much it was really worth keeping them both around.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that accumulating all this human capital shouldn't be taken for granted as a positive. I understand you were mostly trying to dispel the myth that JR is cheap, but quite frankly I don't care how much he pays his executives if they can't put a good team on the field. To this point, they haven't.

 

The article is definitely taking a specific view, to point out that SOME of the narrative is off. I don't think it is trying to make it seem like a rosy picture, as much as it happens to be a take on the aspects that run against the negative narrative. There is plenty of negative to be found, no doubt.

 

[Dunt]

As always, I appreciate raBBit's insight into the organization.

 

But, I think it paints a far too rosy picture of it. As shysocks points out, a lot of the problems this article mentions the Sox fixing are directly attributable to KW (and to a lesser extent Hahn). Any rational fan would see that they have been trying to fix their problems, but at the same time the reason we're losing games now is the direct result of their actions in previous years. It's hard to say exactly how much it was really worth keeping them both around.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that accumulating all this human capital shouldn't be taken for granted as a positive. I understand you were mostly trying to dispel the myth that JR is cheap, but quite frankly I don't care how much he pays his executives if they can't put a good team on the field. To this point, they haven't.

 

Need to somewhat echo these sentiments. Brian, you wrote a great article and like everyone else, I appreciate your insight. I wouldnt label the problem of the White Sox FO as one of loyality, I see it as more of a problem of accountability. Kenny took over as GM in 2000 and in that time has been to the playoffs twice and won a world series. We are all thankful for that World Series, but it should not buy this type of freedom. Kenny ran the farm system into the ground along with almost completely ruining the White Sox presence in Latin America through his hires, why is he still around after 15 years? 2 playoffs in 15 years is such a poor resume for a team in a city the size of Chicago. It sends a message of complacency to the fanbase in my opinion. I will go one step further and ask why Buddy Bell still holds a position of power? If Buddy Bell is responsible for the development in our farm system (and the best homegrown players we have barely spent time in it), then how the hell does he still have a job? The White Sox havent produced a position player worth a damn in over a decade.

 

I'm pleased the White Sox seem to be heading in a more intelligent direction as a franchise though. The talent that is starting to be produced by our farm is exciting and Im happy to see them re-establishing themselves internationally. I will say though, it is somewhat aggravating that they dont seem to go all the way in in any facet of organizational development though. For instance, if they are going to spend a 2nd and a 3rd round pick on FA in one offseason, doesnt it make sense to go over your limit in int'l FA the following July to keep an influx of talent coming in? Why did they even spend a 2nd and a 3rd last year in FA when there were so many other holes in their lineup? Im excited for them to have so many picks this coming draft and I hope they make the absolute best of them. Im sure that means this offseason will be less interesting than the fanbase is hoping, but those picks are going to be very important for this franchise moving forward.

 

In terms of what this currently means for the White Sox major league team, well, that's kinda the most frustrating part. They have legitimate superstar talent there in Sale, Abreu, and maybe Rodon and have surrounded it with really nice core pieces in Quintana and Eaton, but if the system isnt really going to yield help any time soon, what good is it to have any of these guys besides maybe Rodon? They can keep trying to patch this up with band aids like they have, but that isnt really working. That is kinda babbling on my part. I guess my overarching thought is that I'm sick of the half measures by this organization. I appreciate that it might be going in the right direction, but it's been brutal to be a fan of this organization.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Dunt

[gatnom]

The article is definitely taking a specific view, to point out that SOME of the narrative is off. I don't think it is trying to make it seem like a rosy picture, as much as it happens to be a take on the aspects that run against the negative narrative. There is plenty of negative to be found, no doubt.

 

I realize he wasn't really writing it to me per se, and I admitted he was just trying to dispel myths surrounding the organization. I just felt the need to comment on the bigger picture. The juxtaposition of Epstein/Hoyer and Williams/Hahn sort of lends an unofficial stamp of approval to the whole situation, which really may not be warranted at all.

 

 

[rneumann33]

Need to somewhat echo these sentiments. Brian, you wrote a great article and like everyone else, I appreciate your insight. I wouldnt label the problem of the White Sox FO as one of loyality, I see it as more of a problem of accountability. Kenny took over as GM in 2000 and in that time has been to the playoffs twice and won a world series. We are all thankful for that World Series, but it should not buy this type of freedom. Kenny ran the farm system into the ground along with almost completely ruining the White Sox presence in Latin America through his hires, why is he still around after 15 years? 2 playoffs in 15 years is such a poor resume for a team in a city the size of Chicago. It sends a message of complacency to the fanbase in my opinion. I will go one step further and ask why Buddy Bell still holds a position of power? If Buddy Bell is responsible for the development in our farm system (and the best homegrown players we have barely spent time in it), then how the hell does he still have a job? The White Sox havent produced a position player worth a damn in over a decade.

 

I'm pleased the White Sox seem to be heading in a more intelligent direction as a franchise though. The talent that is starting to be produced by our farm is exciting and Im happy to see them re-establishing themselves internationally. I will say though, it is somewhat aggravating that they dont seem to go all the way in in any facet of organizational development though. For instance, if they are going to spend a 2nd and a 3rd round pick on FA in one offseason, doesnt it make sense to go over your limit in int'l FA the following July to keep an influx of talent coming in? Why did they even spend a 2nd and a 3rd last year in FA when there were so many other holes in their lineup? Im excited for them to have so many picks this coming draft and I hope they make the absolute best of them. Im sure that means this offseason will be less interesting than the fanbase is hoping, but those picks are going to be very important for this franchise moving forward.

 

In terms of what this currently means for the White Sox major league team, well, that's kinda the most frustrating part. They have legitimate superstar talent there in Sale, Abreu, and maybe Rodon and have surrounded it with really nice core pieces in Quintana and Eaton, but if the system isnt really going to yield help any time soon, what good is it to have any of these guys besides maybe Rodon? They can keep trying to patch this up with band aids like they have, but that isnt really working. That is kinda babbling on my part. I guess my overarching thought is that I'm sick of the half measures by this organization. I appreciate that it might be going in the right direction, but it's been brutal to be a fan of this organization.

 

 

 

Dunt, this is the best post I have ever read on this site. Everything you said is spot on!! I have to share this story. I received a call from a Sox rep asking if I was going to re-new my ticket plan for next season. First I told him I hope that he doesn't get paid based on how many people he signs up for season tickets because it is going to be a tough sell this year. They second thing I told him is that I will not re-new my tickets until something changes. Meaning changes in management. You are right with you statement regarding Williams and Bell still holding their positions when they have not delivered. Same goes for Ventura.

 

When I talk to my fellow Sox fans about my frustrations with them I use my job as an example. Why would my customer continue to buy from me if I cannot provide him with a quality product that he spends good money for? The same goes for the Sox. Why would I spend my hard earned money on a team that has not delivered quality in years?

 

And it is frustrating because the Sox are wasting the best years of Sale, Abreu, and Q. That is why I am all for a complete teardown and starting over. However, I do not want them starting over with this management team. I do not trust them to develop hitters. As you said, it has been a decade since they last produced a decent bat.

[BlackSox13]

Very well written and insightful Brian. I really enjoyed reading this and I think you've out-done yourself.

 

Patience really is the key and as you pointed out, there are signs of this organization heading in the right direction.

 

I'm really glad you wrote this because the narratives you spoke of have gotten to be pretty old and stale around here to be honest. Hopefully your writing will shed some light.

 

Again, well done.

Edited December 2, 2015 by BlackSox13

[gatnom]

Thank you for the nice words. Again, on the point of KW, I tiptoed around that so your point is certainly a valid counterpoint but I think it strikes at something more incisive. I don't dilute the FO down to KW's tenure vs. Hahn's tenure as I think they mesh and meld in different ways but the roster that the White Sox had when Hahn was named GM was just horrid. It was a black hole. It was overpaid older vets, busted prospects, a team bereft of young talent other than Sale (and whatever was thought of Quintana at that time) and no farm. If someone ranked the 30 organizations' futures at that time there would have to be 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th or 30th. The strides haven't been tremendous but they've been good and we have every reason to believe they will continue to pay dividends. There is premier talent and a better system with some potential plus guys at the top. The team is just incredibly bad with all of the supplementary pieces and with any sort of normal regression we will see improvement.

 

I would agree with all of this. I actually don't think this White Sox team is even that far away from competing. The only unfortunate part is they don't really seem to have much of an option to significantly improve the team in the short term except hope their players play better.

 

 

[GreenSox]

I'd like to see some of Hahn's "shrewd negotiation" in trades.

[captain54]

Need to somewhat echo these sentiments. Brian, you wrote a great article and like everyone else, I appreciate your insight. I wouldnt label the problem of the White Sox FO as one of loyality, I see it as more of a problem of accountability. Kenny took over as GM in 2000 and in that time has been to the playoffs twice and won a world series. We are all thankful for that World Series, but it should not buy this type of freedom. Kenny ran the farm system into the ground along with almost completely ruining the White Sox presence in Latin America through his hires, why is he still around after 15 years? 2 playoffs in 15 years is such a poor resume for a team in a city the size of Chicago. It sends a message of complacency to the fanbase in my opinion. I will go one step further and ask why Buddy Bell still holds a position of power? If Buddy Bell is responsible for the development in our farm system (and the best homegrown players we have barely spent time in it), then how the hell does he still have a job? The White Sox havent produced a position player worth a damn in over a decade.

 

I'm pleased the White Sox seem to be heading in a more intelligent direction as a franchise though. The talent that is starting to be produced by our farm is exciting and Im happy to see them re-establishing themselves internationally. I will say though, it is somewhat aggravating that they dont seem to go all the way in in any facet of organizational development though. For instance, if they are going to spend a 2nd and a 3rd round pick on FA in one offseason, doesnt it make sense to go over your limit in int'l FA the following July to keep an influx of talent coming in? Why did they even spend a 2nd and a 3rd last year in FA when there were so many other holes in their lineup? Im excited for them to have so many picks this coming draft and I hope they make the absolute best of them. Im sure that means this offseason will be less interesting than the fanbase is hoping, but those picks are going to be very important for this franchise moving forward.

 

In terms of what this currently means for the White Sox major league team, well, that's kinda the most frustrating part. They have legitimate superstar talent there in Sale, Abreu, and maybe Rodon and have surrounded it with really nice core pieces in Quintana and Eaton, but if the system isnt really going to yield help any time soon, what good is it to have any of these guys besides maybe Rodon? They can keep trying to patch this up with band aids like they have, but that isnt really working. That is kinda babbling on my part. I guess my overarching thought is that I'm sick of the half measures by this organization. I appreciate that it might be going in the right direction, but it's been brutal to be a fan of this organization.

 

Kudos to you on a very well written post. my sentiments exactly

 

The big question is: the Sox are looking at a huge departure vs the way they've approached things in the past.. this is the intelligent direction you speak of.. Do you really trust this organization with developing and nurturing young talent? I'm not too concerned about the pitching, but defense and fundamentals don't seem to be this organizations forte.. thats all we need is to acquire and bring along these studs, only to have them never reach their potential in a Sox uniform..

[captain54]

I appreciate the kind words everyone.

 

 

Working around Kenny Williams was the hardest part about writing this piece. Simply put, I am not going to go under the Future Sox label and bash the President of Baseball Ops. I do think away from him there are a lot of changes and activities that have taken place over the last half decade that don't jive with the narratives at hand. Even so, the way JR was able to keep his guy and Hahn was crafty and costed coin. While I think you guys make good points that I don't necessarily disagree with, it's not in my best interest or the brand I am representing to hark on those sentiments.

 

I thought your article was a good read, and I appreciate your journalistic integrity.. but a number of critical points not being addressed, made it an incomplete snapshot on what's really happening with this franchise..

 

What I feel is most absurd about the Sox Front Office situation is this: You have a current GM trying to clean up the mess created by the former GM.. this former GM now in a position of even more authority.. a heart beat from the Chairman…

 

That's a pretty lofty position of power for someone who, yes… was in command in 05, but has subsequently sent this franchise into the dark ages…

 

Also, there was really very little mention of Ventura and where he stands in the scheme of things..

[The Ginger Kid]

Great write up, very thought provoking. Here's my favorite point: "Again, inconsistent with the narrative," written in regards to Hahn's moves last winter the cost the team valuable draft picks while pumping a placebo into a dying team.

 

The narrative from the front office, the 5-year plan (or is it the 3-year plan?), the "Braves" strategy, etc., they all sound great. But these deviations come back to haunt them. I've never thought the Sox cheap and I'm surprised others do. You did a good job of dispelling that notion. I've just thought them lacking direction. And for that I blame the loyalty the owner has shown the man who makes the key decisions. And that notion hasn't been dispelled.

 

But I'm glad you illuminated the valid points of progress and Hostetler gives me a lot of hope (liked that interview, too, btw). Let's hope the commitment they've shown him lasts. I'd rather model the Sox after the Cards, but the Braves aren't bad either.

 

 

 

 

[greg775]

Good article. I liked reading that I'm not so unusual in your description of the fanbase. I am very very negative after the 3 losing seasons and you pointed out a lot of Sox fans are in similar moods. I'm really down on the team.

[Hatchetman]

OK. When will the winning commence?

[OmarComing25]

Another comment on position player development, it's for sure been a rough decade but from 1990-2004 we developed Frank, Ventura, Durham, Ordonez, Lee, Rowand and Crede. That's pretty good. It's not like the White Sox have sucked at this forever. A bad decade doesn't mean they're doomed to never turn things around.

[Hatchetman]

Maybe Larry Himes would be interested in some part time consulting work.

[PolishPrince34]

Great Article Brian!!!!

 

The biggest issue I have with the White Sox organization is with Kenny Williams/Buddy Bell over the years and taking advantage of the loopholes of the collective bargaining agreements when so many teams are. From 2000-2012, the White Sox did an absolute brutal job developing are hitters. I put large part of that blame on Kenny Williams and Buddy Bell. Of course those 2 men are still with the organization and I think their philosophy and development of players showed that are draft picks made limited growth with their hitting ability (Pitch recognition, OBP, base-running, etc.). For many of those years Williams was targeting low ceiling players in our early round picks to save a little money to put on the major league ball team. How stupid because everyone knows when you develop your own players it will save you money in the long run by not dipping into free agency. I believe the biggest reason why White Sox fans are really down with the organization is because Williams/Bell are still with the organization and have had so many years and chances to improve in these areas and they didn't. Making the playoffs only 3 times in that frame is unacceptable and most people would be fired. Since, Hahn has taken over the GM position, the organization has been headed in the right direction when it comes to player development. I believe Hahn has been able to bring in more people on staff (Haber, Paddy, and Hostetler) who are more analytical and on the same page as him when it comes to player development and players to target. A problem is Kenny Williams holding back and not letting Hahn make moves for the betterment of the organization. A lot rumblings last year was Williams was the reason Samardzija wasn't traded at the deadline. I think Kenny Williams was probably the only person in the world that believed the White Sox had a chance to make the playoffs because of a 10 game stretch. All baseball fans could of told that the White Sox were horrible team in all aspects to game last year and had no chance of making the playoffs. Hahn could of easily added two more decent prospects by trading Smardzija and possibly fill a position at 2B, 3B, C, and OF. I still want to see the White Sox add to their upper management and bring in some new voices from very successful organizations with player development like the Astros, Cubs, Cardinals, Dodgers, Red Sox, and Rangers have done in recent years.

 

Many teams (Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs, Braves, Rangers, Dodgers, Giants, Angels, etc). have taken advantage of the loopholes to the new collective bargaining agreement with the international allocation. Many of them find the loophole early and take advantage of flaws of the system. White Sox need for their brain trust to act early especially with new collective bargaining agreement at the end of 2016 season. The hope is for the Sox to continue bringing in more analytical people to help the organization in this area. International spending has been a big miss on the White Sox organization by not going over allocation on a given year. Yes, we've had some great success with Alexi Ramirez and Jose Abreu by giving very generous/successful deals coming out of Cuba. White Sox again need to explore and revisit the signing some of this great talent out of Cuba/Latin America by going over the recommended slot for players under the Age of 21. I'm crossing my fingers that 2016 will be the year the White Sox go over the allocated international slot because 10 teams already have. This is a great opportunity to bring in a lot of young talent in 2016 if Reinsdorf/Higher Ups decide. Atlanta Braves has already acknowledged they plan on making a big splash. I hope the White Sox do too, but my gut tells me NOOOOOOO!!!

Edited December 3, 2015 by PolishPrince34