Sox Sign Dioner Navarro

[ChiSoxFanMike]

That 2013 team was so bad haha.

[Jose Abreu]

The roster July 10, 2013:

 

Lineup- De Aza, Ramirez, Rios, Dunn, Keppinger, Gillaspie, Viciedo, Beckham, Flowers

Bench- Morel, Tekotte, Phegley, Wells

Rotation-Sale, Axelrod, Quintana, Santiago, Danks

Bullpen- Lindstrom, Thornton, Troncoso, Purcey, Castro, Jones, Reed

DL- Konerko, Floyd, Peavy, Crain

 

I'll give the Sox credit for turning over the roster in a short amount of time, but until they actually convert that to playoff appearances (or A playoff appearance), it really doesn't matter.

Wow, I completely forgot about Blake Tekotte and Casper Wells.

[Eminor3rd]

Looking at the pitch framing statistics, most of the guys at the top of the heap were personal catchers for some of the best pitchers in baseball. Are we going to say that the pitcher is elite because of the framing of his pitches or say that the strikes called outside the zone are because the pitcher is elite?

 

It will be interesting to see where he ends up because Sale almost single handedly puts Flowers at the top of the stack rankings. And I am not sure I am on board with Flowers' pitching framing being the reason he gets so many called strikes.

 

This is why FanGraphs doesn't include it in fWAR, despite the fact that Prospectus clamors for it. Cameron isn't ready to assign 100% of the value of the "stolen strikes" to the catcher, but there isn't any data at all pointing to what fraction the the pitcher or catcher.

 

It's universally acknowledged that it is a skill of the catcher and adds value, but the amount of value is not known. Certainly, it's some fraction of the actual value of the added strikes.

[shysocks]

Agree about pitch-framing, but looking back in past years Flowers didn't rate too highly there (2014 he was below average, 2013 only slightly above average), is this something that we can be sure is a permanent change?

Intentionally didn't mention Flowers' name in my post but that's a fair question. I would say there's enough material out there about Flowers being a student of framing to make me believe the improvement wasn't an accident.

[Dick Allen]

Lots of good points being made in here:

 

 

 

Looking forward to seeing how a strict platoon will go. It seems weird that the very first thing the Sox did was jettison their decent catching tandem for a different decent catching tandem, but ultimately it's whatever.

 

I would say a couple things regarding catcher defense. One, a catcher's caught stealing numbers have just as much to do with who's on the mound as with the catcher himself. Only the best throwers can overcome slow deliveries to limit the running game. I rarely look at catcher CS numbers because I feel like there's too much else going on.

 

Two, to the guys saying "lol pitch framing who cares," read up on it, if only because there's a lot of entertaining stuff. It is absolutely a skill and some guys are better at it than others. I'm not sure it's worth >1 WAR because the umpire and the pitcher also play a role, but read some articles about it, particularly with .gifs. Look up Jeff Sullivan's worst called strikes and balls pieces on Fangraphs. The way a catcher fields pitches absolutely affects what an umpire sees.

 

The MLB-wide OPS is 92 points lower after an 0-1 count than a 1-0 count. The difference between 2-1 and 1-2 is 350 points. Catchers can get extra strikes. And grabbing extra strikes where you can is important.

Wasn't the worst strike called a ball in 2015 Samardzija pitching and Flowers catching? It was something like 2 inches from dead center but Flowers was really awkward trying to catch it as he was set up on the corner. It looked so much like a ball, even Hawk didn't complain.

[Eminor3rd]

Agree about pitch-framing, but looking back in past years Flowers didn't rate too highly there (2014 he was below average, 2013 only slightly above average), is this something that we can be sure is a permanent change?

 

There does seem to be a consensus that pitch framing can be taught, so a catcher improving over time makes sense.

[RockRaines]

Two, to the guys saying "lol pitch framing who cares," read up on it, if only because there's a lot of entertaining stuff. It is absolutely a skill and some guys are better at it than others. I'm not sure it's worth >1 WAR because the umpire and the pitcher also play a role, but read some articles about it, particularly with .gifs. Look up Jeff Sullivan's worst called strikes and balls pieces on Fangraphs. The way a catcher fields pitches absolutely affects what an umpire sees.

 

The MLB-wide OPS is 92 points lower after an 0-1 count than a 1-0 count. The difference between 2-1 and 1-2 is 350 points. Catchers can get extra strikes. And grabbing extra strikes where you can is important.

Sure, there is skill involved but there is a correlation between catching a top tier pitcher and the pitch framing rankings and statistics. I dont think Greg Maddux's two seam fastball was called for a strike all those years because of the catcher.

[Eminor3rd]

Wasn't the worst strike called a ball in 2015 Samardzija pitching and Flowers catching? It was something like 2 inches from dead center but Flowers was really awkward trying to catch it as he was set up on the corner. It looked so much like a ball, even Hawk didn't complain.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-worst-c...-of-the-season/

[Bigsoxhurt35]

A bunch of people got together and made up a stat so Tyler Flowers would look better.

Lol seems like it.

 

 

Now let's get a 3B and OF. Move LaRoche and move Melky to DH

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I'm sure there's skill involved even though I LOLd at it. I just think it's overrated with Flowers.

[shysocks]

Wasn't the worst strike called a ball in 2015 Samardzija pitching and Flowers catching? It was something like 2 inches from dead center but Flowers was really awkward trying to catch it as he was set up on the corner. It looked so much like a ball, even Hawk didn't complain.

Indeed it was. Samardzija's body language after the call is hilarious. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-worst-c...-of-the-season/

 

Sullivan only pulls the most extreme examples for entertainment reasons but the point gets across.

[spiderman]

For those who don't think the White Sox are or have been rebuilding, here are the players still with the team who were with the team in 2012:

 

Sale

Quintana

Danks

Jones

 

Are they rebuilding in a traditional way though? Clearly there is a lot of turnover, but how much talent is coming form their minor league system?

[Harry Chappas]

If used as a real platoon this is a great idea.....why do I think it will come down to pitching personal preferences and neither guy will have offensive success.

[shysocks]

Sure, there is skill involved but there is a correlation between catching a top tier pitcher and the pitch framing rankings and statistics. I dont think Greg Maddux's two seam fastball was called for a strike all those years because of the catcher.

I fully acknowledged that the pitcher plays a role. But Flowers caught Sale in 2014 too and didn't looks as good on the framing leaderboards. Did Sale's reputation grow enough during that offseason that it propelled Flowers to the top? Probably not.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I just dont believe in this pitch framing stat being a good evaluation tool for catchers. Top tier SP's are going to skew that stat in favor of whoever their catcher is.

 

 

Not true. I just read Big Data Baseball by Travis Sawchik. It details the Pirates use of it. Cervelli/Martin definitely made a difference in this area with the Charlie Morton's and Jeff Locke's of the world. It might be overrated but it is a real thing that's useful.

[Rooftop Shots]

Haven't read the whole thread, but I wonder what the long term plan is? 2 catchers signed for one year each. Wondering if possibly they are waiting to see how Weiters pans out after this year?/ ORRR if they have something else completely in mind that we may not be aware of.

 

[Jose Abreu]

Let's see if Robin uses this platoon correctly, by the way.

[ChiSox59]

Still no word on $$$? Gotta think its between $2-$3M.

[shysocks]

Let's see if Robin uses this platoon correctly, by the way.

Why does this keep popping up.

 

I am certain that Robin understands which starting pitchers are right- and left-handed. Any deviation in the platoon would be related to rest/injury.

[harfman77]

I would say this dramatically lowers the chances that the Sox deal Sale, and slightly lowers the the chances that they deal Quintana.

 

You don't sign two veteran catchers with limited upside to one year deals if you are trying to rebuild.

 

Unless they are stopgaps to a catching prospect that you hope to acquire in such a deal. I would say that these moves are not telling at all about what the Sox are planning to do. If anything, it makes me think that they are leaning toward a complete tear down by bringing in two guys on one year deals. A pretty low investment that can be flipped at the trade deadline to stock some more pieces if they have bounce back seasons.

[harfman77]

Why does this keep popping up.

 

I am certain that Robin understands which starting pitchers are right- and left-handed. Any deviation in the platoon would be related to rest/injury.

 

And pitcher preference.

[shysocks]

Unless they are stopgaps to a catching prospect that you hope to acquire in such a deal. I would say that these moves are not telling at all about what the Sox are planning to do. If anything, it makes me think that they are leaning toward a complete tear down by bringing in two guys on one year deals. A pretty low investment that can be flipped at the trade deadline to stock some more pieces if they have bounce back seasons.

I agree that this seems more indicative of a total rebuild than anything else because of the low cost.

 

And pitcher preference.

I hope that would be last on the list because it would fly against the front office cutting loose the team's best pitcher's favorite catcher.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

This is why FanGraphs doesn't include it in fWAR, despite the fact that Prospectus clamors for it. Cameron isn't ready to assign 100% of the value of the "stolen strikes" to the catcher, but there isn't any data at all pointing to what fraction the the pitcher or catcher.

 

It's universally acknowledged that it is a skill of the catcher and adds value, but the amount of value is not known. Certainly, it's some fraction of the actual value of the added strikes.

 

I saw some graph on SSS that had Flowers getting 38 pitches outside the zone called strikes. A whole 38 if it's accurate . Woooo damn think how bad the Sox would be if they didn't get those 38 called strikes which by the way could be on the ump or a pitchers rep. Way way way too much discussion about it.

 

Catching a fly ball properly gives you a better chance to throw out runners as do a lot of little things make you a better defender. The fact that it is easily charted is the only reason it's even talked about in this crazy environment of stats. All the other little things other fielders do is less definable. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen stats yet on how accurate infielders throw to first yet. Pitch framing talk is the most ridiculous new stat in the history of baseball.

[Baron]

I really don't understand the posts about "Now the Sox have two catchers on one year deals, that concerns me for the future.."

 

Did you feel a lot better when Flowers was the starter? Was he the long term answer?

 

Exactly...plus if resigned he would have been on a 1 year deal just like last year.

[harfman77]

I saw some graph on SSS that had Flowers getting 38 pitches outside the zone called strikes. A whole 38 if it's accurate . Woooo damn think how bad the Sox would be if they didn't get those 38 called strikes which by the way could be on the ump or a pitchers rep. Way way way too much discussion about it.

 

Catching a fly ball properly gives you a better chance to throw out runners as do a lot of little things make you a better defender. The fact that it is easily charted is the only reason it's even talked about in this crazy environment of stats. All the other little things other fielders do is less definable. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen stats yet on how accurate infielders throw to first yet. Pitch framing talk is the most ridiculous new stat in the history of baseball.

 

Did they mention how many pitches in the zone that he got called balls? That would be an interesting counter metric.