Sox Sign Dioner Navarro

[Hatchetman]

Navarro doesn't strike out. I suspect the FO is sick of the terrible K/BB ratios the team always has.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Haven't read the whole thread, but I wonder what the long term plan is? 2 catchers signed for one year each. Wondering if possibly they are waiting to see how Weiters pans out after this year?/ ORRR if they have something else completely in mind that we may not be aware of.

 

Long term plan on catching ? Here it is. Hope some catching prospect you have turns into gold. This is the long term plan in all of baseball. Even if you do get lucky and you find a catcher who can hit you probably turn him into a 1st baseman because his offense is too valuable to subject to the torture catchers go through. If you are even more lucky you find one who wants to catch everyday , somehow most years avoids taking too much of a beating and can actually field his position too.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Did they mention how many pitches in the zone that he got called balls? That would be an interesting counter metric.

 

I actually thought of that when writing the post but figured I'd just stick to balls that are called strikes for the sake of the logic behind pitch framing . I hate even saying PF now . A lot.

[GreenSox]

Source: Free-agent catcher Dioner Navarro in agreement with #WhiteSox on a one-year contract, pending a physical.

I didn't even realize he as a FA. Nice pick up. Catcher stabilized for next season.

[OmarComing25]

Just wait until robot umpires are calling strikes and balls, then pitch framing will cease to be a thing anyway.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Flowers pitch framing was elite. Navarro's supposedly poor. Flowers did have a tough year behind the plate, Navarro is supposed to be decent behind the plate. This could be a good case study on the importance of pitch framing. Pitchers liked throwing to Flowers, but supposedly they like throwing to Navarro as well. All in all, it isn't an earth shattering upgrade, but perhaps change is good.

 

Beckham, Flowers, Alexei...next year Danks and LaRoche. Avi supposedly on the block. They are running out of punching bags.

 

Some outfielders have strong accurate arms yet they suck in all other areas of offense and defense . That's what bringing up pitch framing for Flowers reminds me of . How many people defend Avi and continually defend him based solely on his one and only ability that is above average ?

 

The fact that PF is even a thing just shows you how gullible people are to even believe such a thing with so many variables involved in its accuracy is important. When all you believers are old I hope some con artist doesn't sell you swamp land in Florida because he can draw a pie chart of it.

Edited December 3, 2015 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[RockRaines]

Did they mention how many pitches in the zone that he got called balls? That would be an interesting counter metric.

most of those 38 are by Sale, so I still dont understand if its Flowers getting those called strikes or the fact the Ump also cannot pick up Sale's pitches.

[shysocks]

I saw some graph on SSS that had Flowers getting 38 pitches outside the zone called strikes. A whole 38 if it's accurate . Woooo damn think how bad the Sox would be if they didn't get those 38 called strikes which by the way could be on the ump or a pitchers rep. Way way way too much discussion about it.

 

Catching a fly ball properly gives you a better chance to throw out runners as do a lot of little things make you a better defender. The fact that it is easily charted is the only reason it's even talked about in this crazy environment of stats. All the other little things other fielders do is less definable. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen stats yet on how accurate infielders throw to first yet. Pitch framing talk is the most ridiculous new stat in the history of baseball.

Would love to see a citation on that because I'm pretty sure you're way off. The oft-cited leaderboard that had Flowers second shows 169 calls going in the Sox' favor when he caught. Regardless of how much credit you want to give Flowers for that, if you think it's unimportant you are wrong. Sorry.

 

As for the other little things like positioning, if a guy does them whenever he can it will show up in his ratings. Not really sure how that's an argument. Framing is talked about because it has a direct impact on the count.

[The Ginger Kid]

I love how there's a metric that determines that a catcher's framing caused an umpire to call a strike instead of a ball. Think about that for a minute.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

most of those 38 are by Sale, so I still dont understand if its Flowers getting those called strikes or the fact the Ump also cannot pick up Sale's pitches.

 

Now only the umps and pitchers rep. Wrap your mind around this. Another variable is the guy charting all this stuff. How does he determine that a pitch was a ball and/or strike ? How does he determine that ? Are all center field camera's directly in line with home plate ? Does he look at every pitch from a directly over head shot of home plate ? So now you got another Umpire with a computer and a pencil calling balls and strike based on cameras and camera angles of those pitches.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Would love to see a citation on that because I'm pretty sure you're way off. The oft-cited leaderboard that had Flowers second shows 169 calls going in the Sox' favor when he caught. Regardless of how much credit you want to give Flowers for that, if you think it's unimportant you are wrong. Sorry.

 

As for the other little things like positioning, if a guy does them whenever he can it will show up in his ratings. Not really sure how that's an argument. Framing is talked about because it has a direct impact on the count.

 

It's on Southside Sox in the comments section. I knew that was the weakest part of what I said because I based it on my memory . You are so very gullible it's beyond belief weather its 38 or 169 makes no difference. Do you defend Avi because he has a strong arm ? It's just miniscule part of how a catcher plays defense. The fact that he can sit there relativity still makes it very easy to film/chart. You are just a new age disciple who pays homage to the new stat Gods of baseball without realizing there are too may variables in the equation to even begin to think its a thing that can be accurate to any degree.

Edited December 3, 2015 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[shysocks]

Now only the umps and pitchers rep. Wrap your mind around this. Another variable is the guy charting all this stuff. How does he determine that a pitch was a ball and/or strike ? How does he determine that ? Are all center field camera's directly in line with home plate ? Does he look at every pitch from a directly over head shot of home plate ? So now you got another Umpire with a computer and a pencil calling balls and strike based on cameras and camera angles of those pitches.

PITCHF/x

 

Look, no offense, but the fact that you thought this was based on a guy watching every pitch of every game makes it impossible to take your opinion seriously. You called it the most ridiculous stat in the history of baseball without knowing the first thing about it.

[Hatchetman]

I still don't know why the umps wouldn't be giving the calls to Quintana and Sale and not to Flowers.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I love how there's a metric that determines that a catcher's framing caused an umpire to call a strike instead of a ball. Think about that for a minute.

 

Oh yes and it impacts the count . Oh my goodness now its 0-1 instead of 1-0 the hitter is now at a disadvantage because of the catcher. Wait maybe its because of the pitcher. Maybe the ump blinked ? Maybe its because the pitcher has a reputation for always being around the plate and not walking a lot of guys. Maybe its because the guy looking at the film has every available camera replay to determine the the accuracy of ball and strike calls. And then he determines it's all because on a guy sitting back there catching a baseball as close to the plate as possible or somehow moving his glove ever so slightly to fool the poor boob behind the plate who gets paid to make the decisions.

[Harry Chappas]

I saw some graph on SSS that had Flowers getting 38 pitches outside the zone called strikes. A whole 38 if it's accurate . Woooo damn think how bad the Sox would be if they didn't get those 38 called strikes which by the way could be on the ump or a pitchers rep. Way way way too much discussion about it.

 

Catching a fly ball properly gives you a better chance to throw out runners as do a lot of little things make you a better defender. The fact that it is easily charted is the only reason it's even talked about in this crazy environment of stats. All the other little things other fielders do is less definable. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen stats yet on how accurate infielders throw to first yet. Pitch framing talk is the most ridiculous new stat in the history of baseball.

 

I said in another thread and I will expound further that I thought a good catcher gets about one strike called every three games. That is one out a week and six innings of outs in a aseason...maybe that is good I don't know.

 

I saw Tyler Flowers lose a game single handidly in one inning because he sucks on defense that kills the six innings of outs listed above. Not to mention the offensive offense he put up.

 

Did the Sox improve the position...not certain...but it is no worse and at least a decent platoon seems to be in place

 

 

 

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

PITCHF/x

 

Look, no offense, but the fact that you thought this was based on a guy watching every pitch of every game makes it impossible to take your opinion seriously. You called it the most ridiculous stat in the history of baseball without knowing the first thing about it.

 

So why show me Pitch F/X ? It uses no camera's? No computers ? Sonar ? Radar ? It's infallible ? If you are going to try and teach me something better give me the whole package. Does the person using pitch f/x see where the ball crossed the plate from over the top ? From the side ? Does it determine the height of the batter and determine his strike zone ? I don't see anything in what you showed me saying its used in pitch framing stats and even if it is why does the catcher get credit for it? Next year Flowers could be 20th in pitch framing for all we know. It's just another useless defensive stat based on judgment calls that you are saying "no I can tell you that catcher made the difference on that pitch being called a strike when he is only 1/3 of the people involved in that pitch with 100% accuracy. "

 

Actually 1/4 of the people involved in the pitch if you count the batter and his strike zone based on his stance/crouch . Ricky Henderson is a good example of a hitters stance with his exaggerated crouch impacting an umpires determination of balls and strikes.

Edited December 3, 2015 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Knackattack]

So why show me Pitch F/X ? I don't see anything in what you showed me saying its used in pitch framing stats and even if it is why does the catcher get credit for it? Next year Flowers could be 20th in pitch framing for all we know. It's just another useless defensive stat based on judgment calls that you are saying "no I can tell you that catcher made the difference on that pitch being called a strike when he is only 1/3 of the people involved in that pitch with 100% accuracy. "

This. Framing is an absolutely retarded stat and does absolutely nothing to justify Tyler Flowers playing baseball above AAA.

[SCCWS]

I still don't know why the umps wouldn't be giving the calls to Quintana and Sale and not to Flowers.

 

Flowers was the one slipping the payola to them.

 

[shysocks]

So why show me Pitch F/X ? It uses no camera's? No computers ? Sonar ? Radar ? I don't see anything in what you showed me saying its used in pitch framing stats and even if it is why does the catcher get credit for it? Next year Flowers could be 20th in pitch framing for all we know. It's just another useless defensive stat based on judgment calls that you are saying "no I can tell you that catcher made the difference on that pitch being called a strike when he is only 1/3 of the people involved in that pitch with 100% accuracy. "

You asked how the framing numbers are compiled. It's with PITCH f/x, not a guy watching film. It is explained in the leaderboard I linked to before if you're willing to dig the tiniest bit.

 

I have said the exact opposite of the bolded countless times in this thread. I can't argue with you if you aren't even reading what I'm saying.

 

[shysocks]

So why show me Pitch F/X ? It uses no camera's? No computers ? Sonar ? Radar ? It's infallible ? If you are going to try and teach me something better give me the whole package. Does the person using pitch f/x see where the ball crossed the plate from over the top ? From the side ? Does it determine the height of the batter and determine his strike zone ? I don't see anything in what you showed me saying its used in pitch framing stats and even if it is why does the catcher get credit for it? Next year Flowers could be 20th in pitch framing for all we know. It's just another useless defensive stat based on judgment calls that you are saying "no I can tell you that catcher made the difference on that pitch being called a strike when he is only 1/3 of the people involved in that pitch with 100% accuracy. "

You edited so I'll add: I'm not that interested in teaching you anything, turns out.

[Boopa1219]

I would say this dramatically lowers the chances that the Sox deal Sale, and slightly lowers the the chances that they deal Quintana.

 

You don't sign two veteran catchers with limited upside to one year deals if you are trying to rebuild.

 

I think these could qualify as rebuilding moves.... key phrase: limited upside to one year deals.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

Another factor that hasn't been discussed much is that it could be possible to deal Avila/Navarro at the deadline as rentals if the Sox are out of it by then.

[Flash Tizzle]

Another factor that hasn't been discussed much is that it could be possible to deal Avila/Navarro at the deadline as rentals if the Sox are out of it by then.

Even if they're out of it they'll need someone to catch the baseball and throw it back to the pitcher. Unless either of those two just goes Buster Posey and their value explodes I can't imagine us dealing them. Even then, we'd just be more inclined to keep them for 2017

 

Also, let's not act like the White Sox will do us any favors and be out of it come midseason. They wait until August and September to collapse

[Bob Sacamano]

Even if they're out of it they'll need someone to catch the baseball and throw it back to the pitcher. Unless either of those two just goes Buster Posey and their value explodes I can't imagine us dealing them. Even then, we'd just be more inclined to keep them for 2017

 

Also, let's not act like the White Sox will do us any favors and be out of it come midseason. They wait until August and September to collapse

 

They could sign guys to minor league deals and call them up when/if that happens.

[harfman77]

Even if they're out of it they'll need someone to catch the baseball and throw it back to the pitcher. Unless either of those two just goes Buster Posey and their value explodes I can't imagine us dealing them. Even then, we'd just be more inclined to keep them for 2017

 

Also, let's not act like the White Sox will do us any favors and be out of it come midseason. They wait until August and September to collapse

 

Nah if they get out of the race and either of these guys are worth anything at the trade deadline they have plenty of depth to get them through a half season with Kevan Smith and Rob Brantly. Neither will be good, but good enough to catch the ball and throw it back to the pitcher.