Sox Sign Dioner Navarro

[Chisoxfn]

I appreciate you making the effort and I'll also point out that I make an effort to get used to new stats. I don't say negative things too much any more about sabermetric offensive stats but the defensive ones are still a bit much to handle.

 

I think pitchframing is cited way too often and people do trust the new data and guys like you who spout it for fear of falling behind the times or appearing stupid (ones who trust it without hesitation ,not you) Now too many people think Flowers was good defensively which is absurd because he might (and I say might with great hesitation) get some strikes called that aren't strikes . The data may say its 169 or 38 or somewhere in between but as you acknowledge just because the data has assigned it to the catcher doesn't mean its the catcher who caused the difference

 

As for my issues . I've seen the Gameday app online many times And pitch f/x does follow the flight of the ball unless the graphics used on Gameday are for show.I know it also shows its ultimate destination. Even if the final location of the pitch is basically unimpeachable my issue stills lies with how its determined to be a ball or strike. In order to get a true view of the strike zone one first must see the stance of the hitter . Then to be truly accurate you need a directly overhead view of the plate This will determine if any part of the ball went over the plate. . Then you need a side view . After its determined that the pitch was over the plate , next you see if it was in the batters strike zone . While it was crossing the plate was it between his lower knees and whatever the upper part of the zone is now (varies from ump to ump). If pitch f/x uses all that then I apologize for wasting your time but I'm pretty sure it doesn't. So if I have it right it still takes a person prone to his own biases and judgments about the strike zone to call a ball or strike from what he sees as location from pitch f/x.

 

I do accept that how the catcher catches the ball affects how the ump sees it but also how he sets up and catches the ball as close as possible to where he set up. The example you cited about dropping a pitch right down the middle and it being called a ball , frankly I don't see a lot. What I do see a lot more often is when a catcher sets up outside and the pitch goes inside and the catcher has to move a lot to catch the pitch, that pitch is called a ball when it appears to be a strike much more often. That means the ump is giving the catcher and the pitcher some credit for doing what they tried to do which in my eyes means the pitcher has to be accurate as to where the catcher sets up. I give the catcher almost no credit for crouching still and presenting a target and catching the pitch as quietly as possible ( meaning glove doesn't move very much after he catches the pitch). In other words, an umpire is more consistent and accurate when the pitcher displays those same qualities.

 

Good discussing it with you though. I just don't think even if you do trust it ( which I don't) the significance of how important it is is pretty low. I mean if Flowers was 2nd in HR's or RBI's or in batting average or walks or OBP or slugging or OPS ,OPS+ or wRC it's highly doubtful he would be non tendered. There's a few guys out there whose defensive skills make the a much more valuable guy and Tyler Flowers isn't one of those guys by a longshot and that's the truer crux of the matter.

Shy / Cali...just wanted to point out that you two have some awesome discussion going on and the way you all are handling the back and forth is also awesome!

[Whisox05]

Difference you'll see w/ Dioner Navarro catching for #WhiteSox -- more contact. Career K rate is 13.9 percent. Sox C at 28.8% in '15.

https://twitter.com/CSNHayes/status/672866252126224384

 

Alex Avila's career rate is 26.7 percent but it drops down to 25.7 vs. right-handed pitchers. In short, more contact. #WhiteSox

https://twitter.com/CSNHayes/status/672866954223345664

[DashFan]

Keeping Flowers for his "pitch framing" while he is horrible at literally every other facet of the game is the statistical equivalent of pissing on my shoes and telling me it's raining.

[Doc Edwards Shot]

Like I said in the T-Flo thread, I really like Navarro's bat, I just hope the offensive upgrade is worth the defensive downgrade.

 

I don't think elite pitch framing from Flowers ever offset his horrendous offense. The offensive shortcomings were too great. No way that getting one or two extra strikes called per game from the great pitch framing is worth an automatic out almost every time up at the plate, and especially with runners in scoring position.

 

The Sox offense can't afford to have a .210-.220 hitting catcher with low OBP in the lineup. It's not good enough overall and they need more offensive production from that position.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Doc Edwards Shot

[DashFan]

I can't believe people can seriously look at T-Flo's stolen base stats and say they are concerned about another catcher being a defensive downgrade. Soto can barely throw the ball to 2nd and Tyler made him look good.

 

Opposing teams ran at will against Flowers. Add in all the passed balls in key situations and there's no way "pitch framing" makes him this amazing defensive catcher.

Edited December 4, 2015 by DashFan

[shysocks]

I don't have time to address the framing argument any further at the moment, although I wish I did because it's a great discussion. But as I posted in the other thread about Flowers' non-tender, people saying his hitting was trash are just simply not paying attention to the rest of the league.

 

He struck out a lot. His ceiling was low. And I'd love to be able to describe the Sox' primary catcher as something more than "average for his league." But his numbers match up closely with the aggregate totals for catchers in the American League, except his rotten 2013. Go look it up for yourself.

[OmarComing25]

The Sox offense can't afford to have a .210-.220 hitting catcher with low OBP in the lineup. It's not good enough overall and they need more offensive production from that position.

The average AL catcher hit .231 with a .294 OBP in 2015. The line you posted would be just slightly below that average.

[Bob Sacamano]

The average AL catcher hit .231 with a .294 OBP in 2015. The line you posted would be just slightly below that average.

 

This lineup can't afford that though I think is his point. It'd be different if this lineup was any good but it's not.

[Vance Law]

Navarro, it would seem, is not making more than $2.5 million. Probably less.

 

Well, I was wrong. I figured with AJ, Iannetta, Soto, and Avila having already signed that Navarro would be getting less than them.

 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

Keeping Flowers for his "pitch framing" while he is horrible at literally every other facet of the game is the statistical equivalent of pissing on my shoes and telling me it's raining.

 

You win this thread.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Shy / Cali...just wanted to point out that you two have some awesome discussion going on and the way you all are handling the back and forth is also awesome!

 

Thanks Jason. It's basically new school versus old school and I take a lot of pride in knowing baseball and how its played and I trust my eyes and years of keenly observing the game and players to form my opinions. I can be testy at times but I'm aware that certain words are unproductive to a discussion where both parties feel strongly about their opinions.

[GreenSox]

I think the new catching duo is something to be excited about. A healthy Avila is is better defensively than Flowers and Navarro is at least on par with Flowers except Navarro has a better arm. The Sox should be throwing out more base runners this year and the platoon bats of Navarro/Avila should put up more offense than Flowers as well. The catching position needed to be upgraded and has been and it did not cost the Sox prospects or much money which leaves plenty of resources to be used to fill a few gaping holes.

. I am happy to see these changes.

As for defense, I think it depends on how much credence one gives to these framing stats. Per the stats, Flowers is top notch. But I think there are a lot of variables in the stats that haven't been fully vetted. Is it the catcher or is it the pitcher that the catcher catches? And then there is the ump- wide zone v right zone.

I remember when Tom Glavine pitched, he would consistently get 4 extra inches on the outside corner. Was they because of him or was he served by the greatest set of framing catchers ever??

Just from my unscientific and not statistically analyzed observations of watching ballgames, I think lefties get more corner calls than righties. Flowers catches a lot of lefties.

Edited December 5, 2015 by GreenSox

[BlackSox13]

. I am happy to see these changes.

As for defense, I think it depends on how much credence one gives to these framing stats. Per the stats, Flowers is top notch. But I think there are a lot of variables in the stats that haven't been fully vetted. Is it the catcher or is it the pitcher that the catcher catches? And then there is the ump- wide zone v right zone.

I remember when Tom Glavine pitched, he would consistently get 4 extra inches on the outside corner. Was they because of him or was he served by the greatest set of framing catchers ever??

Just from my unscientific and not statistically analyzed observations of watching ballgames, I think lefties get more corner calls than righties. Flowers catches a lot of lefties.

Funny you mention Glavine. I used to say the same thing about Maddux and how he would get calls off the plate, not that he wasn't good but I did wonder if he got the calls because he's Maddux or because his catcher was just that good. I chaulked it up to Maddux having the rep of being a great pitcher so he got the calls. Just my opinion.

 

I think there's something to be said about pitch framing but its over blown imo. Give me a catcher that can call a good game, block balls in the dirt and throw out base stealers at a good clip and I'm happy. Anything more than that I consider to be a blessing from the baseball gods.

 

I will say that in order to get the corner of the plate calls it probably takes a combination of the pitcher throwing close to the corner in the first place, the catcher needs a steady glove and the pitchers rep for throwing strikes. I think all three of these have an effect how the ump will call the pitch.

[Chicago White Sox]

I don't have time to address the framing argument any further at the moment, although I wish I did because it's a great discussion. But as I posted in the other thread about Flowers' non-tender, people saying his hitting was trash are just simply not paying attention to the rest of the league.

 

He struck out a lot. His ceiling was low. And I'd love to be able to describe the Sox' primary catcher as something more than "average for his league." But his numbers match up closely with the aggregate totals for catchers in the American League, except his rotten 2013. Go look it up for yourself.

Flowers was ranked 21 of 28 in wRC+ for catchers with 300+ PAs. He wasn't a good hitter last year, even for a catcher. And this is a great example of why people must look beyond a player's stats in isolation and consider the big picture. Flowers is a low contact hitter who frequently goes extended cold streaks where he provides no value offensively. He's a guy who is far less effective than his wRC+ would suggest because he actually hurts the ability of the players batting around him to produce and ultimately makes our run distribution more variable and therefore less valuable. Not all runs all created equal and he's a perfect example of why. His hitting is trash and the single reason he had to go.

[LDF]

I don't have time to address the framing argument any further at the moment, although I wish I did because it's a great discussion. But as I posted in the other thread about Flowers' non-tender, people saying his hitting was trash are just simply not paying attention to the rest of the league.

 

He struck out a lot. His ceiling was low. And I'd love to be able to describe the Sox' primary catcher as something more than "average for his league." But his numbers match up closely with the aggregate totals for catchers in the American League, except his rotten 2013. Go look it up for yourself.

 

i really hope you don't take this wrong, and i am sure the merits of any possible counters would be great reading. however, the sox FO felt it was necessary for the lack offense that position generated. if they thought they would sacrifice the defensive merits of more offense, then who are we to say otherwise.

 

btw, i agree with the move. this team needs offense.

[GreenSox]

I will say that in order to get the corner of the plate calls it probably takes a combination of the pitcher throwing close to the corner in the first place, the catcher needs a steady glove and the pitchers rep for throwing strikes. I think all three of these have an effect how the ump will call the pitch.

Agree

Anyway, it was time to move on from Flowers. Glad we did.

Hopefully we can get competent on the cheap at 3b.

And keep on building while keeping the eyes open for deals.

Edited December 5, 2015 by GreenSox

[LDF]

. I am happy to see these changes.

As for defense, I think it depends on how much credence one gives to these framing stats. Per the stats, Flowers is top notch. But I think there are a lot of variables in the stats that haven't been fully vetted. Is it the catcher or is it the pitcher that the catcher catches? And then there is the ump- wide zone v right zone.

I remember when Tom Glavine pitched, he would consistently get 4 extra inches on the outside corner. Was they because of him or was he served by the greatest set of framing catchers ever??

Just from my unscientific and not statistically analyzed observations of watching ballgames, I think lefties get more corner calls than righties. Flowers catches a lot of lefties.

 

to some degree, the so called credence is important, b/c of the pitchers mind set. thru the time of baseball, pitchers have their favorites catcher catch for them. but they are professional and they will learn to work with the new catchers.

[LDF]

Funny you mention Glavine. I used to say the same thing about Maddux and how he would get calls off the plate, not that he wasn't good but I did wonder if he got the calls because he's Maddux or because his catcher was just that good. I chaulked it up to Maddux having the rep of being a great pitcher so he got the calls. Just my opinion.

 

I think there's something to be said about pitch framing but its over blown imo. Give me a catcher that can call a good game, block balls in the dirt and throw out base stealers at a good clip and I'm happy. Anything more than that I consider to be a blessing from the baseball gods.

 

I will say that in order to get the corner of the plate calls it probably takes a combination of the pitcher throwing close to the corner in the first place, the catcher needs a steady glove and the pitchers rep for throwing strikes. I think all three of these have an effect how the ump will call the pitch.

 

is there such a graph or stat that show the results of the 2 new catcher in this area of their game???

[Dick Allen]

Re Glavine

 

The stuff that he was getting several inches off the plate his entire career(4 inches in this thread) doesn't seem to line up with actual facts. I read an article about him a year or so ago and they didn't have the tools they do now regarding pitch track. Ques Tech came in when he was 35 and suddenly he had a bad year. Many thought that was proof of the advantage he supposedly had, but he was 35 and the next season he bounced back with a career normal season. He also was in less than 50 percentile during his peak of called strikes per pitch. He worked low and away to everyone, but if he was getting 4 inches, he would have had a lot higher called strike percentages.

 

To think pitch framing isn't a useful skill worth something is just being naive and Flowers sucks no matter what. Is it as valuable as some think, and take Flowers from a 0.4 WAR to a 2.0, that is very debatable and I would probably side on no. A lot of it has to do with when you are getting the calls, and obviously the pitcher has a lot to do with it. 1 inch off the plate vs. 2 inches or an inch and a half could make all the difference.

 

I didn't like pitch framing for a while because there were a couple of different lists, and they, for the most part, weren't very consistent with the same players. A couple of years a go, Flowers was really good, not elite in one, and horrible on another. But they seem to be a bit more in tandem now.

 

All that said, the White Sox catching with Flowers is probably average. It wasn't the reason they lost, it wasn't the reason they won. The change most likely won't make it elite, but average seems to be reasonable, and Navarro makes a lot of contact. Try something new. If it doesn't work out, it isn't like they can't find another mediocre guy to throw back there.

 

My Flowers fandom is probably pretty opposite of many. I wasn't too thrilled when he was handed the job, but despite being really bad in stretches, he basically gave the White Sox what most teams get behind the plate, so I didn't think a change was definitely necessary. I would have hated if they threw some prospects at Jason Castro last year. But they changed it up without trading any prospect or really paying more money. It is worth a shot. Good luck to Tyler.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Dick Allen