ptatc Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (Special K @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 06:47 PM) Dick was right. I just notice that he defends sox brass staunchly. The organization is struggling right now. If it's all KW, then JR needs to fire him or sell. We're in the 3rd largest city in the country and 0 playoff appearances in 8 years is pathetic. Why do people think RH is a complete idiot and took a job where he has no decision capabilities? If they sign free agents to large deals, it's all KW. If they don't sign free agents, it's all KW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (SoxSteve @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 11:42 AM) Good points but disagree with a few things. First of all the players we gave up for Shark didn't fit the Sox good at all. Semien is a nice player but his defense will NEVER be good enough for short IMO. The problem with the Sox is we have very good pitching with very bad defense. If your going to be a good pitching team and that seems the direction we are going in with a Sale, Q, Rodon, Fullmer Johnson rotation i think it defeats the purpose to have a Semien at short. I would rather sacrifice hitting for fielding at certain positions when your pitching is good. That's why a Anderson -Lawrie combo doesn't excite me. I'd much rather have a great hitting outfield with a great DH hitting and sacrifice some of that with defense on your infield. And i don't consider Phegley and Bassitt prime pieces to the White Sox future. Obviously the trade didn't work out with Shark being horsehit but i don't think we mortgaged any of our future with that deal. That being said we have a disjointed team right now with the below average defense in both the outfield and infield with above average pitching. How we solve that is anyone's guess. Hello welcome. One thing you'll notice about me, well , maybe not , no one else has, is that when it comes to minor leaguers I do not try to predict the future. I only hope for the very best for them and look at the high side. After all I am a Sox fan . No sense for my personal well being dwelling on the down side of youngsters. You on the other hand used an absolute like NEVER which I cannot accept. You may end up being right or wrong but NEVER doesn't work for me because things change with young people because they learn and grow. Maybe Semien doesn't play SS for the Sox , maybe he plays 2nd base , maybe he DH's maybe 3rd base. If the guy was truly terrible at SS how does he end up being given such a high ranking by the MLB network analysis that takes into account every facet of his game with high end statistics ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 11:48 AM) Compete, yes. Give everything away for an "all-in," no. The philosophy is to continue to improve the team while not sacrificing the future. none of the prospects traded away were possible impact players. He kept the really good ones and traded away "pieces." They may be MLB players but nothing of consequence. In return, he received proven MLB players which will help the team. Nothing he did will hurt the future and will help in the present. Minor league depth is not as important as impact prospects and proven MLB talent. Granted it's a risk just like signing FA to long term deals. However, with the financial constraints placed upon him, he cannot afford to have deadweight contracts on the books for an extended period of time. That's why signing FA to the longterm deals isn't a good play here. We just differ too much in regarding the future. You seem to know the future . You've repeatedly said his moves will not hurt the future. whereas I'm just dealing with how he's done in the present. You know the future that's great but sorry you don't. The present isn't good . That's what I know and so far there isn't much of a future to speak of without depth in the minors and players with only 1 or 2 years arriving via trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 07:11 PM) We just differ too much in regarding the future. You seem to know the future . You've repeatedly said his moves will not hurt the future. whereas I'm just dealing with how he's done in the present. You know the future that's great but sorry you don't. The present isn't good . That's what I know and so far there isn't much of a future to speak of without depth in the minors and players with only 1 or 2 years arriving via trade. This is the paradox of being a fan. You want to win now, which is understandable. However, then there are complaints about not making the playoffs for a long stretch of time. It's very difficult to do both all tge time. All teams go through ups and down with success. A GM cannot just look to an individual year and disregard tge future otherwise tge team will be really bad. I know we disagree on this but I don't want to go through more periods of long playoff doughts. I want them to start building consistent winners. I also disagree that tge future isn't good. They had some automatic outs in the lineup last year. They've improved 3 of them. That is a significant improvement in the composition of the lineup. I agree that everything will need to go right to make the playoffs. I also thini tge team will be significantly better and is on the right track. The problem is that it takes the one thing that is the most difficult thing to do in sports, have patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jan 23, 2016 -> 02:04 AM) Hello welcome. One thing you'll notice about me, well , maybe not , no one else has, is that when it comes to minor leaguers I do not try to predict the future. I only hope for the very best for them and look at the high side. After all I am a Sox fan . No sense for my personal well being dwelling on the down side of youngsters. You on the other hand used an absolute like NEVER which I cannot accept. You may end up being right or wrong but NEVER doesn't work for me because things change with young people because they learn and grow. Maybe Semien doesn't play SS for the Sox , maybe he plays 2nd base , maybe he DH's maybe 3rd base. If the guy was truly terrible at SS how does he end up being given such a high ranking by the MLB network analysis that takes into account every facet of his game with high end statistics ? you and i have had our problems even till the other day. BUT..... i will acknowledge when i read a great post. good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 07:33 PM) This is the paradox of being a fan. You want to win now, which is understandable. However, then there are complaints about not making the playoffs for a long stretch of time. It's very difficult to do both all tge time. All teams go through ups and down with success. A GM cannot just look to an individual year and disregard tge future otherwise tge team will be really bad. I know we disagree on this but I don't want to go through more periods of long playoff doughts. I want them to start building consistent winners. I also disagree that tge future isn't good. They had some automatic outs in the lineup last year. They've improved 3 of them. That is a significant improvement in the composition of the lineup. I agree that everything will need to go right to make the playoffs. I also thini tge team will be significantly better and is on the right track. The problem is that it takes the one thing that is the most difficult thing to do in sports, have patience. Sure, everything you say is logical enough. The problem for fans is they felt promised a competitive team last year, it feels like they are not prioritizing this year OR possibly even the remaining two years with Frazier/Cabrera/Lawrie...making the question when, exactly? Right now, based on an assumption of Anderson winning ROY and Fulmer winning 15 with a 3.75ish era in his first full season, 2017 will be THE best year to get it done...assuming we can have at least manage league-average DH production. Fwiw, another thread asks will Cespedes get this year's team to the playoffs...my response would be, how likely is it the White Sox don't make the playoffs if Anderson and Fulmer both have the impacts as described next year? And how likely are both those eventualities to occur? Edited January 23, 2016 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 01:54 PM) Obviously it was a reply to Cy Acosta...if we can't talk about the risks of standing pat that goes along with the assumption that Cespedes isn't worth the attendant risk, then what's the point of discussing Cespedes at all anymore? Great, Cespedes...too risky! So then what? Please explain what move doesn't carry a downside. Cali has been arguing about Cespedes for weeks and nobody has rebutted his point that we don't have enough proven run producers...highlighting that fact with his RBI and RISP (which will inevitably be described as luck or random or anomalies) numbers but I have yet to see a good response other than just a string of personal character attacks on Cespedes from shadowy sources. Thank you Caulfield and personally I think that was one of you better posts. Everything you talked about was related to how much the Sox need Cespedes . Just too much failure lately in a lot of areas. The failures mostly being in the "settling" type of FA who ends up crippling the Sox anyway because they all sucked . High end FA means less likely to suck right away . The Sox are "settlers" . That DirecTV commercial gets credit for me calling the Sox "settlers". They settle for leftovers and like hungry dogs they fight over the scraps. Then they find out the scraps have worms and the dog dies. Lesson learned buy the good meat. Maybe I won't argue for Cespedes any more using stats and logic. From now on I should probably just say . BUY THE GOOD MEAT ! Edited January 23, 2016 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 07:49 PM) Thank you Caulfield and personally I think that was one of you better posts. Everything you talked about was related to how much the Sox need Cespedes . Just too much failure lately in a lot of areas. The failures mostly being in the "settling" type of FA who ends up crippling the Sox anyway because they all sucked . High end FA means less likely to suck right away . The Sox are "settlers" . That DirecTV commercial gets credit for me calling the Sox "settlers". They settle for leftovers and like hungry dogs they fight over the scraps. Then they find out the scraps have worms and the dog dies. Lesson learned buy the good meat. I agree they have been settling for the second tier FA. If RH is under this budget constraint, the other way to go is to create less dependency on FA. Now no team can forego all FA. But they produce or trade for proven MLB players. Then they can go out and get the one FA to put them over the top. I just don't agree that this scenario is now. Cespedes is not a superstar you sign to put you over the top. He is currently the best option, but not a franchise changing player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 07:49 PM) Thank you Caulfield and personally I think that was one of you better posts. Everything you talked about was related to how much the Sox need Cespedes . Just too much failure lately in a lot of areas. The failures mostly being in the "settling" type of FA who ends up crippling the Sox anyway because they all sucked . High end FA means less likely to suck right away . The Sox are "settlers" . That DirecTV commercial gets credit for me calling the Sox "settlers". They settle for leftovers and like hungry dogs they fight over the scraps. Then they find out the scraps have worms and the dog dies. Lesson learned buy the good meat. I guess we're all trying to rationalize away the loss of something that hasn't even happened yet. Turning on Cespedes like he's bringing ebola into the clubhouse...it's funny how often we hear winning leads to chemistry, and now that axiom's being completely ignored. As you pointed out, Collins had glowing accolades for Yoenis. It's all spin at this point, appropriate for political season. Something has to be wrong...because five teams in 18 months!!! without closely examining the context of each situation carefully. Maybe Ventura won't be able to handle him, so we're better off, probably. Frankly, neither could a Showalter or Scioscia control freak type...and SO shocking to see disparaging quotes from Buck, right? It's just that all this renewed talk of giving Avi more time...it feels like we already went through the same painful process with Beckham and Viciedo, with diminishing returns. Hawk's belief Frazier will help take pressure off Abreu and Avi still won't fix his swing, pitch recognition aptitude or defensive shortcomings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 07:57 PM) I agree they have been settling for the second tier FA. If RH is under this budget constraint, the other way to go is to create less dependency on FA. Now no team can forego all FA. But they produce or trade for proven MLB players. Then they can go out and get the one FA to put them over the top. I just don't agree that this scenario is now. Cespedes is not a superstar you sign to put you over the top. He is currently the best option, but not a franchise changing player. Therein lies the rub. Closest to a franchise-changing free agent available without trading Anderson/Fulmer or giving up draft pick compensation prior to October, 2017...is the caveat here. And franchise-changing player is exactly what he was last season. Close to MVP-caliber. Much lesser contract seasons have caused the White Sox to overbid on free agents in the past. Edited January 23, 2016 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 10:23 AM) That is the only "potential" downside to signing Yoenis for five years, that he "might" not be as productive towards the end of the contract. Meanwhile, for the next two to three years, the window in which we'd like to compete, you get a 30 HR, 100 RBI guy in the middle of your lineup and a substantial improvement in the outfield defense. THAT'S WHAT WE NEED! And we don't have to give up any prospects or talent on the roster, nor sacrifice a draft pick to get him. He is the best option to fill one of our gaping holes in the outfield. If it means tacking on those two last years, then just do it, for godssake. He "might" just continue to be productive in those years as well, given he'll only be 33/34. Who knows! Let's worry about that in '19 and '20. For now, let's follow through with what I thought was the stated mandate which is to "maximize" the window of opportunity this team has right now to win in these next few years. Yoenis Cespedes provides us the best chance to do so among our existing options. We are singing in the same choir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 08:08 PM) Therein lies the rub. Closest to a franchise-changing free agent available without trading Anderson/Fulmer or giving up draft pick compensation prior to October, 2017...is the caveat here. And franchise-changing player is exactly what he was last season. Close to MVP-caliber. Much lesser contract seasons have caused the White Sox to overbid on free agents in the past. You have stated you shouldn't sign a free agent for more than 3 years have you not? How many top free agents sign for 3 years or less? Until Adam Dunn, the white sox hadn't signed another team's free agent for more than $20 million, so overbiidding on free agents is really not something you can say the White sox have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 08:08 PM) Therein lies the rub. Closest to a franchise-changing free agent available without trading Anderson/Fulmer or giving up draft pick compensation prior to October, 2017...is the caveat here. And franchise-changing player is exactly what he was last season. Close to MVP-caliber. Much lesser contract seasons have caused the White Sox to overbid on free agents in the past. And where did it get them in the past? You are still looking short term with trading Anderson/Fulmer. Maybe it's when they are on the team? RH just needs to continually improve the team until they get to that point. Right now the team hasn't shown it is ready to contend. Cespedes was that for 1/2 a year. Do you really think that he will continue that? Some people do. Obviously most GMs do not, with the lack of big contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (ptatc @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 05:57 PM) I agree they have been settling for the second tier FA. If RH is under this budget constraint, the other way to go is to create less dependency on FA. Now no team can forego all FA. But they produce or trade for proven MLB players. Then they can go out and get the one FA to put them over the top. I just don't agree that this scenario is now. Cespedes is not a superstar you sign to put you over the top. He is currently the best option, but not a franchise changing player. Have you seen what franchise changing players are going for now ? Over $200M ! Cespedes at less than his original expected price is about the most we can hope for. But still waiting on some franchise changing player just for around what we paid Abreu ($68M ). Hey it can happen again if it happened once right ? Edited January 23, 2016 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 08:12 PM) You have stated you shouldn't sign a free agent for more than 3 years have you not? How many top free agents sign for 3 years or less? Until Adam Dunn, the white sox hadn't signed another team's free agent for more than $20 million, so overbiidding on free agents is really not something you can say the White sox have done. No, I stated that the Royals after last season shouldn't give out any long-term deals...because they weren't in a desperate overpay situation due to unique franchise circumstances. Gordon was the understandable exception, but Kennedy was dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 08:18 PM) Have you seen what franchise changing players are going for now ? Over $200M ! Cespedes at his price is about the most we can hope for. But still waiting on some franchise changing player just for around what we paid Abreu ($68M ). Hey it can happen again if it happened once right ? Yep, Alexei Ramirez or Kang last offseason..although even then, franchise altering is pushing the definition. We've been so successful (except Dayan) in Cuba we're now often priced out of that market. The one guy I really wanted last year at this time was Hector Olivera, and the Dodgers simply outbid everyone. It will be interesting to see how well the Koreans picked up by Balt and the Twins do...but, once again, franchise altering? Unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisox05 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 there are more than just the mets and nats in on cespedes. #mystry teams https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/690724259589701632 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGajewski18 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 08:38 PM) there are more than just the mets and nats in on cespedes. #mystry teams https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/690724259589701632 Lmao, here we go again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisox05 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 08:40 PM) Lmao, here we go again. Not over till the White Sox are singing lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 08:38 PM) there are more than just the mets and nats in on cespedes. #mystry teams https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/690724259589701632 Gee whiz Jon, f***ing really? Talk about stating the obvious while being vague. Angels, Jays, Rangers, Cards, White Sox, Braves, Marlins, Yankees and even Boston has been written about. I don't know who's worse right now, Heyman or Nightengale. For now I'll go with Nightengale and Heyman a close second. No offense to you WhiyeSoxLifer, youre just passing along what you find and I do appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Jan 23, 2016 -> 02:38 AM) there are more than just the mets and nats in on cespedes. #mystry teams https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/690724259589701632 Must not have liked what Mets offered. My guess is the Marlins or Mariners are next rumored team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (fathom @ Jan 22, 2016 -> 08:47 PM) Must not have liked what Mets offered. My guess is the Marlins or Mariners are next rumored team. The Marlins were briefly speculated a few days ago but it died rather quick but Seattle, that would be a new one. I wonder what their finances are looking like? Gonna go investigate that real quick like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Jan 23, 2016 -> 02:50 AM) The Marlins were briefly speculated a few days ago but it died rather quick but Seattle, that would be a new one. I wonder what their finances are looking like? Gonna go investigate that real quick like. Probably not a threat, but they have the Roc Nation connection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGajewski18 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Do the Mariners have money? King Felix, Seager, Cano, Cruz contracts eat up quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 http://nypost.com/2016/01/22/cespedes-pote...ecedented-risk/ Now they're claiming the Orioles might be getting back into Cespedes...see last paragraph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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